Concealed carry on casino property

[dogbear]

I was told it is illegal to have a gun in your car on indian property,like casinos and smoke shops.Does anyone know what the law is about this if you have a ccw license?

[J.P.]

I don't think there is any merit to that,otherwise wouldn't it be technically illegal to carry in the entirity of Osage County?

I hope somebody can clarify this.

[J.P.]

1. Any structure, building, or office space which is owned or leased
by a city, town, county, state, or federal governmental authority for
the purpose of conducting business with the public;


I guess if a smoke shop or casino is defined as such,than it is illegal.

I wouldn't go near a casino without a firearm.

[pnuner]

My understanding is that a casino must be on Federal Indian land to get around some of the state gaming laws. A smoke shop may or may not be on Indian land (if they have a casino they would be on Fed. land) although all Indian facilities that I have seen have been posted.

[skyydiver]

Guys, if it's Indian land, it is its own sovereign nation. So, carry there depends on the laws of that tribe. And most (that you can even get an answer from) are not self defense friendly to non members. Just my experience, but be very careful trying to apply OK law in what amounts to another country by treaty.

[ChrisC]

i used to work for the chickasaws and for the most part your answer is no.

if you do it can be very bad for you and thier new gun...

the casinos are on trusted land, the majority of your tribal businesses are on trusted land, pretty much even police officers, unless commissioned by the tribe or BIA can not preform duties on trusted land, this includes all federal law enforcement other then BIA, and everything down from there.

[J.P.]

So being that Osage County is an Indian reservation,is carry there illegal?

[TulsaGunGuy]

Hum... Red Castle Gun Club is in Osage County

[ChrisC]

osage county its self isnt a reservation.....

if it was there would not be highway patrol, the sheriffs office, or local police.

trusted indian land would be a no go on the concealed weapon, such as, tribal headquaters, tribal clinics and hospitals, and other tribal businesses.

they will be clearly marked with the no weapons sign, but you are looking at federal regulations on trusted indian land.

[DrBaker]

I thought Oklahoma doesn't have any reservations.

[skyydiver]

We don't. But tribes do own plenty of land (like Chris said, HQ, Casinos, Grocery Stores), and that is theirs. Ever seen a tribal cop? That's why.

[ChrisC]

i knew a trooper that got busted shop lifting diapers in ada cause he didnt want his wife to know about his girlfriend and baby in ada, well he got caught and arrested and ended up with a deferred for the shop lifting, also lost his job but that's besides the point. well he ended up in ada with his girlfriend and she worked at chickasaw headquaters, they got into it at her work and he assaulted her. if it was a crime committed off of tribal land he would have been arrested for domestic violence and taken to county jail, bonded out and most likely the charges dropped the next day, or at most he would have had to pay a fine...

but it was on tribal land..... they took him to muskogee where he was held with out bond until his trial and sentancing to prison....

point---------dont mess around on tribal land---------

[J.P.]

osage county its self isnt a reservation.....


Are you 100% sure about that?
My map shows that it is.

[ndenway]

can't quote the statue off the top of my head, but its a federal crime, and covers any weapon not just firearms, all of the casinos I've worked security in will, depending on the guard let you take it back to your car no harm no foul type deal, but sadly a few will even ask LEOs to remove theirs, but most will allow them if they show their credentials to the security director immeadiatly upon entering.











hey ChrisC, which one of the chickasaw casinos did you work at?

[TwoBravo]

i knew a trooper that got busted shop lifting diapers in ada cause he didnt want his wife to know about his girlfriend and baby in ada, well he got caught and arrested and ended up with a deferred for the shop lifting, also lost his job but that's besides the point. well he ended up in ada with his girlfriend and she worked at chickasaw headquaters, they got into it at her work and he assaulted her. if it was a crime committed off of tribal land he would have been arrested for domestic violence and taken to county jail, bonded out and most likely the charges dropped the next day, or at most he would have had to pay a fine...

but it was on tribal land..... they took him to muskogee where he was held with out bond until his trial and sentancing to prison....

point---------dont mess around on tribal land---------

:laughup: I love stories about the brownshirts.

[ChrisC]

ada gaming center

[Mack45]

I think that Dogbears question was about having a concealed weapon " in your car ", on Indian land, not weather you could bring it into a casino or smoke shop. You can't bring a concealed weapon into a Govt. building but you can leave it in your locked car in the parking lot there. The parking lot of most casinos and smoke shops are Indian land. Maybe Skydivers answer is the best one, I don't know for sure. A very good question.

[dogbear]

Thanks Mack 45,also I know we are suppose to tell the police we have a concealed handgun when we first come in contact with them.Should we risk telling the tribal police we have a concealed handgun if we have a fender bender in the casino parking lot?

[J.P.]

Easier just to stay off of Indian Territory,if you ask me.
;)

[ChrisC]

ill look up the law for you. but im 99% sure its no weapons at all on tribal land

[skyydiver]

I wish I could say I knew anything for sure, but the tribal and federal laws regulating tis stuff are hard to find. I just know I do not trust my SDA permit to be valid on any tribal land.

[J.P.]

The tribal police I know don't have a problem with me carrying,in fact they have told me that they would rather I did.
Who am I to stand there and argue with them?
YMMV

[8Cyl Firebird]

Let me caution all of you about entering a conversation about Tribal Law. It is a very complex field and open to quite a bit of interpretation.

[8Cyl Firebird]

Something to think about though....if indian land is soverign ,and sovernty is granted by the federal government, are indian lands really soverign? Just something to ponder. I have taken a few classes over Tribal Law. It's messy.

[mons meg]

It's "sovereign"...in quotes. Not Sovereign. See the difference? :D

Also, there's reservations....and Reservations. reservations are like the Indian "nations" in Oklahoma, which cover virtually the whole state. Reservations are where the local Sheriff can't go. See?

[ChrisC]

my contact wasnt in the office today, i will have an answer for you all next week.... I have to go play "undercover" this weekend so i wont be able to respond until wednesday...

[dogbear]

Hey Chris C, remember to let us know when you find out the law about carrying on Indian property.Print it here if you have space.Thanks

[skyydiver]

I stilldon't think there's one law that covers 'em all. I think it depends on who's land you're on. Much like private property, but with a police force and jail.

[ndenway]

well one thing I know for sure about tribal law, if your not a tribal member of any tribe then the tribes can't do anything to you in their court system, now if they have a compact with the county or local pd, then they can have them take custody and prosecute you, all tribal laws a misdomeanors, no felonies, now if its a serious/violent crime then the feds will come in, they have an an act that covers 15 violent crimes that superceedes tribal law, and even if you are tried in tribal court and found innocent of a violent crime, the feds can retry you in federal court and if found guilty, sentence you, double jepardy doesn't exist.
tribal law is very confussing, especialy when dealing with non indians, if the tribe is cross certified with the BIA then they can arrest anyone, but if their not certified they can only take indians, so for example: a non indian and an indian get into a fight on trust land and the non indian started the fight, the tribal police couldn't do anything to him, but if he wants to press charges against the indian, then the officer has to take the indain in, what more than likely would happen is the tribal officer would call county and have the non indian arrested by the deputy, if said deputy was willing to assume the tribes liability.
I deal with tribal, county and local police almost daily in my job and I see what a mess it is, alot of times the local and county guys have to make a series of phone calls too their bosses just to see if its alright for them to get involved and the tribal guys are usally calling county and local to see if they can get any assistance, its a mess every time.

earlier this year I caught a woman that stole a tip jar from one of the cashiers, tribal responds, but since she was non indian, he couldn't do anything to her, so he call local pd, they wouldn't respond, so he calls county, and happened to get the shift sgt., he comes out and talks to the woman, then tells us that he can't take her because of a standing order from the sheriff not to get involved in anything thats not serious in nature involving the tribe, so he would not be able to take her for theft, I told him it was not the casino's money that she stole but it was an cashier's, so after some thought on his part he calls one of his deputies to come over and take custody of her from me, I had to place her under citizens arrest for petty larseny, and the deputy assumed my liability for her transport to county jail, the following morning I had to give a sworn statement to the DA, and he said he would prosecute and that I would be called to testefy, still hadn't heard anything from them, the chick did have to post a $250 bond and spent 2 nights in county, all for stealing $7 bucks from a cashiers tip jar.

[skyydiver]

Sadly enough, that all made perfect sense. So at best, it's a cluster$*^%. Bummer. I doubt we'll ever figure out exactly if / where it's kosher to pack on the tribal land with 100% certainty. I bet the tribal governments/PDs aren't sure and don't really care for the most part.

[ndenway]

the tribal guys I deal with every day know what they can do and can't do, they quickly become experts in bluffing, most people only see the "police" on their sleaves and assume they can do what they say.

[okla-lawman]

i knew a trooper that got busted shop lifting diapers in ada cause he didnt want his wife to know about his girlfriend and baby in ada, well he got caught and arrested and ended up with a deferred for the shop lifting, also lost his job but that's besides the point. well he ended up in ada with his girlfriend and she worked at chickasaw headquaters, they got into it at her work and he assaulted her. if it was a crime committed off of tribal land he would have been arrested for domestic violence and taken to county jail, bonded out and most likely the charges dropped the next day, or at most he would have had to pay a fine...

but it was on tribal land..... they took him to muskogee where he was held with out bond until his trial and sentancing to prison....

point---------dont mess around on tribal land---------

If a nonindian commits an crime on tribal land prosecution traditionally had gone to the federal agencies ie FBI. Recently that has changed somewhat.
Local authorities ie state or county have been given authority to investigate
and prosecute these crimes. You are totally wrong about domestic violence arrests. All domestic arrests are a no bond offense. You must sit in jail untill you see a judge for bond. In the case you reported he was probably charged under a federal statute for crossing state lines to violate an order of protection. If you cross an indian reservation or go onto to an indian reservation this statute attaches. Also most domestics no longer get dropped. The abused person is not the victim. The state of Oklahoma is.
Afew years back I worked one where a woman "slapped the dog **** out of her husband". It went to court after she refused a plea bargain of 6 months probation and 40 hours community service. Her husband showed up to testify for her. She got 1 year with two weeks in custody. 400 hours of community service.

[ChrisC]

from my experiance it would have to be non-indian on non-indian crime would go to local authorities. non-indian on indian crime would go to federal court, and indian on indian crime would go to tribal court.

I am very well aware that a judge has to set the bond for a domestic case, I personally have not seen a oklahoma district judge set a domestic at no bond after the inital appearance, This federal case to me was pretty unique, being as the judge denied bond until the trial date. and yes there was a PO in effect at the time of the arrest.

Im not going to get into which cases i have worked and which ones i have not, but where i started my LEO career would take about half of the domestics filed, if the person was a somebody they got a really low bond, if any at all, some didnt even stay in jail until their inital appearance, i always thought it was funny cause the ones they treated special ened up being frequent flyers.

The law is set up to protect the victim, but it is still up to the judges and district attorney's to hole people accountable for their actions

[ChrisC]

okay here's the skinny on the carrying a concealed weapon on tribal land...

if you are carrying the concealed weapon on tribal land they would charge you with the violation of the oklahoma self defense act but they would reciprocate the law into the respective courts...

i.e. if you are a indian commiting the crime on tribal land you would be charged in tribal court, non indian you would be charged in federal court.

and that's the bottom line, information was received by a tribal investigator.

[Mack45]

Sounds like it's best to either leave the weapons at home or stay off tribal land. The parking lots are tribal land.

[dogbear]

Thanks for giving us the tribal law Chris C.Now that we know I agree with Mack 45.

[skyydiver]

Cool. If the Feds actually just charged you with violating the SDA, that's a very minor misdemeanor with a fine isn't it? I figured the tribes or feds would have something moe than the SDA if they didn't want carry on their land. Odd.

[SMS]

I'm not to savvy on legal stuff, but how would you end up in federal court for violating a STATE law?

[ChrisC]

if you are carrying the concealed weapon on tribal land they would charge you with the violation of the oklahoma self defense act but they would reciprocate the law into the respective courts...

I think that pretty much sums it up. The federal government has a lot of broad laws that allow for stuff like this. Keeps the US code from being a billion pages long...

[skyydiver]

I still don't know. If the tribe has a law against it, then that's what you violate. If they have an agreement to enforce state law, then you're covered under SDA. They can't have it both ways.

[ChrisC]

Have you ever worked for a Tribe? they like to have things both ways.

A little bit more research is showing me something a little different then what the Tribal guy told me, his way is correct but there are several different avenues this can go.

If you are going onto Tribal, or Federal land I would strongly Advise leaving your gun and other assorted weapons at home.

[skyydiver]

No, but the wife works for one, and has been a member for most of her life. :) I completely agree with you on the point of leaving the guns at home, because it's just too murky.

[ChrisC]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

here is the federal law on it

[skyydiver]

Good link, but I'm not buying that a casino (or tribal hq) is a federal facility. Nobody working for tribes that I know (including 2 tribal cops and the wife, + a plethora of in-laws) are drawing fed checks or benes. And the cops don't have federal powers, nor do they claim to know the answer to this question, that's why I say it's too murky for me.

[ChrisC]

no but it is federal trusted land... that's the catch 22...

indian law is murky at best, like with most law enforcement officers, you only work with 5% of the law on a daily basis, the rest of it is in books to look up when you need it.

i contacted a investigator with the chickasaw lighthorse police, I am working on my BIA contact, he has since moved to montana and is hard to get a hold of.