The Criminal Paradigm

[Michael Brown]

Let's look at who your opponent(s) is:

Criminals in modern society who will victimize individuals as opposed to simply taking their property fall into a suprisingly narrow paradigm. This does not include personalities like serial killers or the mentally/emotionally disturbed.

1) Male.

2) Young, usually late teens to late twenties.

3) Raised in and accustomed to violent culture.

4) Unaware of, or undisturbed by, consequences.

5) Usually armed in some fashion.

6) Works and travels in groups regularly.

7) Physically at his peak.

8) Personally experienced in criminal behavior.

9) Predatory by nature.

10) Relishes personal conflict and conquest.


A pretty disturbing picture if you ask me.

Let's look at ourselves as their opponent.


1) Probably male with some exceptions.

2) Older or middle-aged.

3) Raised in responsible culture.

4) Very aware of and deterred by consequences.

5) Possibly armed.

6) Usually travel with family who are dependants not allies in a struggle.

7) Past our physical peak at best. In horrible condition at worst.

8) Likely very little personal experience with criminal behavior.

9) Affable and helpful by nature and choice.

10) Dislikes and avoids personal conflict.

With that in mind, how do we stand a chance?

By training harder than they do. Are you really? If you aren't how do you expect to prevail?

"Train more than you sleep." Mas Oyama

As a police officer, I live for the days when I can be the one to stand between you and violent crime. Its why I took this job.

As a realist, I can tell you that I won't be there and the only one who will be there for you is YOU. You are the only one responsible for your own safety. Nothing will feel worse than you or your family being victimized and you not being able to do anything about it because you didn't prepare effectively.

Are you really preparing for it?

Don't wait. Make a concious decision to start right now.

Michael Brown

[aabokla]

Michael,

While many criminals would seem to fit into the profile you described, I'm curious about three issues surrounding your assessment.

The first issue is that I noticed that you made no mention of any socio-economic placement. While common sense would seem to favor that those most without would be the first to see crime as a viable option, have you found that to be true in your experiences? Is a poor person really more likely to commit a crime than someone from the middle or upper class? Even those in the middle class can look with considerable envy towards others who have more than them. Also, do criminals tend to go after other people within their own socio-economic group or do they tend to concentrate their crimes on persons appearing to have more wealth who by happenstance venture into their field of view?

My second issue concerns those persons with emotional and/or mental instability or disability. I'm very curious to know how often TPD is called out to handle this sort of issue.

My final question, concerns the predatory nature of criminals. Are most crimes commited spur of the moment based on opportunity or are they thought out and planned?

Adrian

[Michael Brown]

Michael,

While many criminals would seem to fit into the profile you described, I'm curious about three issues surrounding your assessment.

The first issue is that I noticed that you made no mention of any socio-economic placement. While common sense would seem to favor that those most without would be the first to see crime as a viable option, have you found that to be true in your experiences? Is a poor person really more likely to commit a crime than someone from the middle or upper class? Even those in the middle class can look with considerable envy towards others who have more than them. Also, do criminals tend to go after other people within their own socio-economic group or do they tend to concentrate their crimes on persons appearing to have more wealth who by happenstance venture into their field of view?

My second issue concerns those persons with emotional and/or mental instability or disability. I'm very curious to know how often TPD is called out to handle this sort of issue.

My final question, concerns the predatory nature of criminals. Are most crimes commited spur of the moment based on opportunity or are they thought out and planned?

Adrian

There's a lot of overlap reference the issues you bring up and it probably bears discussion.

My experience is that the have-nots are the most likely criminal predators because they are the most likely to be familiar with violent culture and have personal experience with it. They are also less-dissuaded by consequences because the loss to them is so much less than to someone in the higher economic strata.

The reason socio-economic factors were not part of the paradigm is that violent culture is a far better descriptor than socio-economic class as there are plenty of sociopaths from all classes. Kids who have familiarity with violence like spousal abuse or child abuse which cross all economic lines are very likely to be violent and a certain percentage will turn to criminal violence.

The choice of target is not consistent as some of these types are more logical and cunning than others. Some work in their own neighborhood because its convenient. Some seek greener pastures where there is a soft target-rich environment and no one personally knows them.

The reason its not part of the paradigm is that its just not a consistent enough factor to prepare for.

Reference the second question, EDP's/Mentals are one of the most likely calls we get. We deal with them several times a night in all areas of town.

Regarding planned or spur of the moment ciminal activity, its once again not a consistent enough factor to be specifically prepared for. That said, prepared for violence is obviously the most dangerous thing most people will encounter. Those are the people we must train for.

Michael Brown

[green country shooter]

A very good post, Michael, and I would add a set of ideas that led me to stop carrying my Kel-tec P32 and makes me think twice about my 5 shot snubbie .38. The Glock 26 is sure more comforting when thinking about two or three strong, anti-social young men trying to hurt me. Of course, air support would make me feel even better, but I don't have a radio to call in the warthogs right now.

[skyydiver]

Civilian air support, huh? Hmm. Okay, figure out a way for me to make a living hop'n and pop'n with an AR strapped to my rig in the good ole US of A (unfortunately I'm to old, fat and wimpy to be of use to Uncle Sam now) and I'm in hog heaven!

[Michael Brown]

Civilian air support, huh? Hmm. Okay, figure out a way for me to make a living hop'n and pop'n with an AR strapped to my rig in the good ole US of A (unfortunately I'm to old, fat and wimpy to be of use to Uncle Sam now) and I'm in hog heaven!

Bounty Hunter. :wink2:

"You mean to tell me there is a loosely regulated, quasi-law enforcement organization and I have not been made aware of it?" - Dale Gribble

Michael Brown

[skyydiver]

Okay, so SOME similarities MAY exist between myself and the oft-misunderstood Mr. Gribble. However, I cn assure you that the 25% Native American blood in my children comes FROM my wife, and not her migraine healer. I just saw one I hadn't seen where Gribble had a vision that he had Indian blood. I fell out. Sorry for the hi-jack. My mind wanders.

[Michael Brown]

Okay, so SOME similarities MAY exist between myself and the oft-misunderstood Mr. Gribble. However, I cn assure you that the 25% Native American blood in my children comes FROM my wife, and not her migraine healer. I just saw one I hadn't seen where Gribble had a vision that he had Indian blood. I fell out. Sorry for the hi-jack. My mind wanders.

No worries. My best friend was clearly the model for Dale Gribble. He died two years ago and it does my heart good to have a chuckle about the character in the show.

Michael Brown

[Crosstimbers Okie]

Excellent discussion. Too bad everyone isn't lucky enough to be blessed with sensible law enforcement. From "The Enlightened Ones":

http://www.isp.state.il.us/crime/saconfronted.cfm

If You Are Confronted...


Before you fight

Fighting for your safety may be necessary. However, if you start out fighting you cancel any other options that might be open to you. Since many attacks on women are not sexually motivated, and are designed to degrade and humiliate, talking your way out of it may be easier.

There is documentation of assailants that left a would-be-victim alone after she told him that she was pregnant and it would kill her baby. (Some case were women that were too old to even have a baby.)
Telling an attacker that you have VD or AIDS can discourage him.
It may sound disgusting, but putting your fingers into you throat and making yourself vomit usually gets results. (This method is not often used except as a last resort.)
Use your imagination and you can think of others.

The above methods are particularly important if your assailant has a gun or knife, or there is more than one attacker. (Fighting would probably be futile.)

If you must fight

Use of a firearm to protect yourself or property is not recommended.

Guns stolen from residences are a primary way of getting guns into the hands of criminals.
Half of all the women that fire a gun trying to protect themselves shoot someone they do not want to, i.e. friend, neighbors, relatives, etc.
Be aware of those times and places where there is a potential for attack and be prepared to defend yourself.
parking lots
walking at night
waiting for a bus
elevators
other you will learn to recognize

Articles common to your handbag that make useful defense weapons.

nail file
rat tail comb
teasing brush
pens and pencils
keys
anything rigid

Concentrate on these areas only when combating an assailant.

groin
eyes
ears
nose
throat

You should not swing at an assailant. Roundhouse or overhand blows are easy to deflect or evade. Your movements should be made with all your strength, and should be straight jabs. Remember that screaming may be just as important to your defense as any weapon.

[jasondld]

Good conversation, and interesting topic. I just wish I wasn't 8 for 10 on the first list Michael Brown talked about.

[Michael Brown]

CTO,

I was contemplating posting that statement from ISP as well. It is freaking frustrating.

It basically says that only the police are responsible enough with guns to possess them and that is simply ludicrous.

Fortunately, a major law enforcement publication recently published a survey that demonstrated that over 85% of LEO's nationwide are anti-gun control. That's a higher percentage than the rest of the population.

Statements like that from ISP are the drivel of ambitious administrators that don't represent the views of the majority of cops.

As another example of this sort of bureaucratic nonsense, I was attending a domestic violence prevention class a few years back when I worked in the family violence unit.

A speaker from DVIS was bragging on her new seven figure long-term lodging facility for victims. She made it clear that the victims could stay for up to one year.

"What then?" I asked.

She really didn't have a good answer for that.

I advised that for those seven figures I could have gotten 1000 victims a Glock and better firearms training than the police department gets.

The shelter protects about 40 women for up to a year.

I could have provided 1000 of them the means to protect themselves for the rest of their lives.

When I pressed the issue of effectiveness further, she said "We just can't do that."

It is that type of attitude that guarantees victims for life.

Michael Brown

[Crosstimbers Okie]

It is that type of attitude that guarantees victims for life.


Amen.

[NikatKimber]

It is that type of attitude that guarantees victims for life.
Amen.

AMEN!!!

[Kai]

Are you really preparing for it?

Don't wait. Make a concious decision to start right now.

Michael Brown

Excellent points above. So Michael, in this vein, what is your suggestion? Go to the range regularly, or something more "purposed"?. I know the answer to that, but i'm curious as to what your recommendations are for those in the Tulsa area to train to defend and survive.

[Michael Brown]

Excellent points above. So Michael, in this vein, what is your suggestion? Go to the range regularly, or something more "purposed"?. I know the answer to that, but i'm curious as to what your recommendations are for those in the Tulsa area to train to defend and survive.

There are lots of good choices.

Obviously, I am partial to the things I do i.e. using an MMA training method with combatives-based technique and integrating weapons and role-playing. I think its a big deal to have contextually-underscored training: i.e. I am a huge fan of MMA's training method and practice it several days per week but it is very incomplete as contextually-underscored training.

I personally believe its important to do something (anything) every day. That may include physical fitness, specific martial training, reading, visualization, range work, etc.

Whatever you do, strive to be as well-rounded as possible. Range work isn't all there is to it: You need to be able to shoot well but if given a choice between being able to do a 5 second El Prez or being able to do an 8 second El Prez and also being able to fight a three round MMA fight, I'll take the latter.

Develop skills in awareness, hand to hand, blade, impact weapons, firearms, tactical trauma care, driving, and verbalization/de-escalation.

We offer a monthly training group that numerous members here belong to as well as classes through the United States Shooting Academy www.usshootingacademy.com or private lessons through the same.

Jensen's Martial Arts (formerly International Martial Arts of Tulsa) offers some very good training in a number of areas including stick, blade, and MMA.

Then again, if you are realistic, analytical, intellectually honest, and willing to put in some really hard work you don't need me or any other instructor at all.

However most folks, including myself, find it easier to have a guide.

If you'd like to discuss some specific issues or methods, let's take it to a seperate thread so that everyone can benefit from it.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

In the 1990's action film "Demolition Man", there is a scene where escaped criminal Simon Phoenix (Wesley Snipes) is confronted by several police officers.

Phoenix has recently been imbued with unusual levels of combative skill in a society where very few have any real combative experience or skill and his level of defiance reflects his understanding of the police's lack of competence.

In response, the police select advice from a hand-held computer which fails miserably and the police are dispatched by Phoenix in short order after being mocked and derided briefly.

After the ignominious demise of the officers on scene, the dispatcher (Rob Schneider) comments:

"We're police officers. We're not trained to handle this type of violence!"

Sound far-fetched?

Not in my opinion.

My prediction, based on having a job where I have the benefit of observing criminals daily and seeing the results of their behavior, is that in the next ten years we will see an unprecedented type of violence and defiance from the criminal element.

This defiance will be based on a superior level of software that the average ccw holder/citizen or police officer will not possess.

This will be based on five inter-related factors:

1) The proliferation of MMA

2) The Iraq War

3) The declining physical standard for police

4) The declining physical capabilities of the middle class

5) The emphasis on hardware and range in both police and citizen firearm training


1) MMA

MMA has hit the mainstream.

Just about everyone who watches Spike TV has some idea of what the Guard, Mount, and cross-body mean.

While few train hard enough to gain a high level of proficiency, you are kidding yourself if you believe criminals are not training and are not getting better.

The days of incompetent thugs are passing.

Case in point:

In Charlotte, North Carolina a patrolman stopped a suspect believed to be involved in a stolen property case.

The suspect complied initially and then hit the officer with a double-leg and tried to take him to the ground. From there the suspect tried to apply a technique known in MMA parlance as the triangle choke, a complex combination of contortion of the arms and legs to achieve loss of blood to the brain.

Fortunately, the officer was also a highly skilled MMA practicioner and had trained at an MMA gym for several years and managed to beat the suspect at his own game and held him down until his backers arrived.

On my police department, 98% of officers would have been choked unconcious in a similar situation.

The only thing that saved this officer was a superior level of skill. Not a taser, not O.C., not even a firearm.

Could you have done the same if this was you?

So where did the suspect learn these skills? Was he a wayward fighter down on his luck? A gym rat gone astray?

Nope.

When the suspect was questioned about the incident and how he received his training he responded that everyone in prison is doing it now. Inside prison, MMA is the king of entertainment and many are becoming quite skilled.

The suspect also told the officer he was lucky he'd trained. The next officer he picks won't be so lucky.

2) The Iraq War

While the vast majority of those fighting this war for us are quality Americans, there are a substantial number of thugs and gang members inside our military.

And they are gaining a level of skill they've not had before.

Witness the 2005 murder of a Ceres, California police sergeant by a Latin Kings gang member and U.S. Marine.

This suspect understood the concept of OODA better than any of the three officers on the scene and thoroughly dominated the encounter.

Some offer that since the suspect possessed an SKS, that was the dominant factor in the event. This is simply not the case. The police deal with suspects with rifles on a regular basis but rarely do they lose so decisively.

It was the suspect's understanding of fire and maneuver and OODA that caused that tragedy.

3) The declining physical standard for police:

When a liberal bastion such as MSNBC or CNN becomes concerned about the level of physical preparedness of our police, you know there's a problem.

A few years back I surveyed one of our police recruit classes and found that only three or four of thirty had ever been involved in a contact sport at the high school level.

However about 25 out of 30 owned a video game system at that time.

'Nuff said.

4) The declining physical capabilities of the middle class:

Recently I questioned the athletic director of my daughter's prep school as to why in Oklahoma, a hotbed of wrestling, there was no wrestling program at her school.

He responded that most students just didn't have the physical discipline or desire to participate in a sport like wrestling.

Ask yourself if you're like one of those high school kids.

5) The emphasis on hardware and range in both police and citizen firearm training:

In today's training academies there are very few actually people teaching software over hardware.

We constantly seek a ranged solution to our problems and ignore the necessity of the extreme close range skills that criminals are cultivating.

We provide numerous reasons for it but the bottom line is we are not preparing.

We will look for tasers, better guns, more impressive hollowpoint designs, yet ignore the fact that it is the individual and not his equipment that wins a fight.


If you are not training hard against resisting opponents, don't kid yourself: You won't be prepared for the next decade.

If you're just punching paper, no matter how challenging, you're not ready except for a drunk who challenges you on the side of the road. That guy is becoming the exception, not the rule.

If you recognize it ten years from now, it will be too late to figure it out in a two day class.

My plea to you: Start now.

A new gun cannot replace skills.

Do not wait until its too late. When the criminals recognize that the police are no impediment, you will be the only thing between society and chaos.

Don't wait.

The criminals aren't.

Michael Brown

[ttown]

Agree...good piece:thumb:

[olyeller]

Good stuff, MB.
Where do you think all the biker gangs got their start? ww2.

[berettaman]

Several very thought provoking items.Here's my question.The solutions are made necessary because of the proplems? Why not address the problems? Oh that's right! We have the ACLU.
Who said "first,kill all the lawyers". ???

Good post!!

[izahuh]

I finally get to respond to a MB post!....yes.... So what do you recommend, get better with your handgun skills or your hand to hand...

[Michael Brown]

I finally get to respond to a MB post!....yes.... So what do you recommend, get better with your handgun skills or your hand to hand...

Its a combination of both that results in a truly integrated individual. Learning to handle your gun in this environment is not something that many schools teach.

Unfortunately there aren't many doing it right now. There are maybe four or five nationwide doing so.

On the up side, everyone in Oklahoma has someone doing the work in their own backyard.

Michael Brown

[RDS]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

GEORGE ORWELL

Thank you MB!

[Michael Brown]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

GEORGE ORWELL

Thank you MB!

Unfortunately now instead of rough men, we tend to have agreeable men.

Its not my intention to fear mongor or criticize how law enforcement administrations work, but it is a fact that men like RDS are becoming extinct in law enforcement and that is terribly unfortunate and quite frightening.

We are far more likely to have someone who can explain social theory than someone who can successfully roll in the gutter with a roided out ex-con.

We still get some good ones, but they are the exception not the rule.

You as citizens will be the only ones who can possibly hold the line in the future and you need to be prepared for that.

Honest citizens must re-claim their place as the highest predator on the food chain and there's really only one way to do that: Become a better predator. The fact that our ancestors won this country with blood and sweat does not give the rest of us a ticket to the fat life.

Every day you don't get better is another day you hand to criminals in society.

Michael Brown

[GlockCop]

MB I agree with you. As a trooper I have noticed that our lack of applications have fallen off dramatically. The reason? My personal opinion is we are looking for the "college educated" insted of someone with more real life experience. When I hired on college wasnt a mandatory thing like it is now. And for some reason many under thirty think they should start at the commissioners job and stay there for twenty. I hope this will reverse itself but I dont see that happening and I fear that "demolition man" type scenarios will become far too commonplace.

[PARASHOOTER]

The fact that our ancestors won this country with blood and sweat does not give the rest of us a ticket to the fat life.

Michael Brown

Amen!!!

[mons meg]

I thought violent crime rates overall were going down?

[kgull85]

MB I agree with you. As a trooper I have noticed that our lack of applications have fallen off dramatically. The reason? My personal opinion is we are looking for the "college educated" insted of someone with more real life experience.

I think it's also that LEO's don't get paid enough. In the small town I live in the local police only get paid $10-12/hr. I realize we don't have the high crime rate or a murder every week here, but that is just wrong.

[berettaman]

I must agree with GlockCop.Nowdays,with our institutions of higher learning being run by liberal elitists,it's very hard to get a person thru one of those universities that have any desire for or a real understanding of "community service".Needless to say any kind of respect for sense of duty to country.
I've never understood the concept of why a degree in Elizabethan poety makes a better cop than a guy who's lets say worked with real people.Is there a real threat from 16th century street gangs that I've not heard about.

[Michael Brown]

I thought violent crime rates overall were going down?

When politicians refer to violent crime rates going down, they are generally referring to the murder rate.

This completely misrepresents the problem.

Increasing quality of medical care and a number of other factors have kept the murder rate down.

You have to look at the robbery, aggravated assault, and assault rates to get a true picture of violent crime. Those stats go up and down from year to year but when you compare decade to decade, they are waaaaaaay up.

You have to look at the rate at which people are trying to kill or hurt each other to get a real look at the issue.

Plus, what I am referring to is the "type" of crime and defiance that we will see not the numbers.

That will change a lot in the next decade if the new LE paradigm doesn't change.

Michael Brown

[NikatKimber]

Well said MB!
We will miss the days when good kids wrestled, fought, and in general rough housed for the fun of it. Now we aren't even supposed to spank a kid for fear of damaging his self esteem. You end up with good guys with weak knees, and bad guys that view authority as soft.

[NikatKimber]

Like someone pointed out, we aren't punishing them correctly in the first place. If they get convicted for some violent crime, the punishment should be enough to make them think twice the next time. The thought that I'm paying for criminals to train in MMA when I can't because I'm busy being a good citizen and working, and still can't afford it...

Who the !@#$ @#$% thinks this %^&*( (&*%^@ makes any !@#!@ @$#%^& sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Humane treatment my @ss!! What about how fair the world is to me? I don't see anyone jumping up and down about me having trouble making ends meet, but God help the man who suggests that prisoners not have magazines cable and phys ed!!!!

That about says it... sorry if your speakers don't bleep it out right!

Growing up, my dad used pain when I did something wrong... in the form of a leather belt. I'm better for it. But don't get me wrong, it hurt! He's a great dad, a very loving man, but you didn't mess with the rules. I still wouldn't want him upset at me. He's 50+ and I'm 23 but still. I have a healthy fear of authority, but the way I see some people being raised, they don't. And that leads exactly to what MB is talking about. Good men who are good without having to be physically punished, and bad men who see authority as too weak to make them obey.

Rant off....

[Cowman]

Ok this got me to hitting the russian kettlebells again. Great post. Even the country boys are getting a little bit soft.

[swavy00]

MB, I always look forward to your posts. Very thought provoking and written with conviction. This post is no different. Awesome post and thank you.

[Protect]

I think it's also that LEO's don't get paid enough. In the small town I live in the local police only get paid $10-12/hr. I realize we don't have the high crime rate or a murder every week here, but that is just wrong.

Some security gaurds get paid $30+/hr... It's sad that people out there in harms way are not compensated better than they are.

Honest citizens must re-claim their place as the highest predator on the food chain and there's really only one way to do that: Become a better predator.

It takes a thief...

[mons meg]

When politicians refer to violent crime rates going down, they are generally referring to the murder rate.

This completely misrepresents the problem.

Mike, I was referring to trends observed in the FBI Uniform Crime Report, etc. and trends reported by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.gif

Now, I am not disagreeing with you as far as trends in police and citizen mindset, and the fact we all need to get off our collective asses more and train. Just throwing some numbers out there for community digestion.

Edit: is it possible the recent downward trend has anything to do with the explosion of concealed carry legislation nationwide? I'd like to think so...we'll need another 20 years of numbers to be sure, though. ;)

[Glock 'em down]

I think it's also that LEO's don't get paid enough. In the small town I live in the local police only get paid $10-12/hr. I realize we don't have the high crime rate or a murder every week here, but that is just wrong.

I wish I made 10-12 bucks an hour! I'm not even clearing $9! THAT'S why I have to have 3 jobs!

Now, granted, I don't have NEAR the crime and bullsh!t that MB or Glockcop or other LEOs have to deal with, but obviously I have enough or I wouldn't hafta tote an iron on my hip!

Good post MB!

[ef9turbo]

very good post MB.. your post has really got me thinking about that and you're are right! 10 years from now, we could be in a world of hurt.. :nolike:

i'll tell you the ONLY reason why i got CLEET certified as an armed guard is because its hard for me to get a degree now.. i've been out of school for so long and would not be able to afford it nor have time for it! i want to be a peace officer and i want to help the community and i want to fight crime, but the way things are now, they want you to have a AA/BA to even break the ice on qualifications! alot of "us" cant do it even if we wanted to.. i'd do it for free too! i want to be a reserve officer, but i guess i dont qualify???

this is my way of trying to do what i can..

[Cowman]

Turbo,
Look at small departments to start. You don't need a college degree to reserve.
Most chief's in my county don't have degree's. Some are working on them. Most small town's are looking for free help.

[Glock 'em down]

It's really sad that the world has taken the turn for the worst as it has. The ugly truth of it is, the days of the cops carrying the .38 caliber revolver and the leaded, leather sap, chasing mindless thugs are indeed history. Hell...even just 18 VERY SHORT years ago when I started this crazy profession, the absolute WORST thing I usually encountered on the street was a drunk getting sideways with me!

But...times have changed and what's happened has happened. And unfortunately...that's the world we live in now.

It's all about training. Instead of buying the next blaster on your list, I challenge EVERYONE to use that money towards some type of REALISTIC training. Punching holes in paper just doesn't cut it anymore.

Are you ready?

[ef9turbo]

Turbo,
Look at small departments to start. You don't need a college degree to reserve.
Most chief's in my county don't have degree's. Some are working on them. Most small town's are looking for free help.

i've tried some small towns.. free help usually isnt free anymore.. TPD requires an AA for reserve.. owasso requires 1yr college.. i would love to give free help on the days that i can to any department close to tulsa...

[blufie]

Hmmm... great thread, and sobering.

Q: Who dictates and enforces the standard for physical condition and training that peace officers (for any given municipality) should meet? And why is it not sufficient or improving? Where/Who can apply pressure to improve this? something is driving this and apathy or ignorance are prime potential culprits.

I was personally convicted by this article, as at 42 I have gotten more lazy (and fat) than is healthy and am an example of the declining physical capabilities of the middle class. I can't give any valid reasons (just excuses), but I know I am more tired than ever. Not entirely physically, but more mentally. Tired from the dull stress of seeing things getting worse and feeling that I have little effective remedy to pursue for the greater good, save that of preparing myself and my family. I don't like what's happening in society, but I doubt that I can personally effect many changes, so I rarely do anthing outside of my backyard and lately have done less and less anywhere. This makes me a part of the problem and I need to change.

One other comment, Allowing hard core criminal inmates to train in self defense tactics seems ludicrous. Well for that matter allowing hard core criminals to languish in jail on my tax dollar is a crime as well. In my opinion, your rights in this society are forfeit the minute you violate other inncocent peoples basic rights to life and liberty (and in some cases the pusuit of happiness ;) ). Speedy trials and public hangings for hardcore criminals. Works for me. As for dealing with the other threats, if you don't have skilz and won't or can't prepare yourself, pray you have some help.

Thanks MB.

[Michael Brown]

Mike, I was referring to trends observed in the FBI Uniform Crime Report, etc. and trends reported by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.gif

Now, I am not disagreeing with you as far as trends in police and citizen mindset, and the fact we all need to get off our collective asses more and train. Just throwing some numbers out there for community digestion.

Edit: is it possible the recent downward trend has anything to do with the explosion of concealed carry legislation nationwide? I'd like to think so...we'll need another 20 years of numbers to be sure, though. ;)

This is classic manipulation fo the UCR.

Not by Mons Meg, but by the Department of Justice.

For instance now if a juvenile is arrested for a violent crime it may not get classified as a "violent crime" because the juvenile doesn't get reverse-certified.

They also don't classify simple assault or assault and battery as violent crimes because of differing statutes.

Personally if my teeth get knocked out, I call it a violent crime but the DOJ doesn't.

They have also changed the standard for aggravated assault based on the type i.e. with a weapon vs disparate abilities.

They also don't classify the felony possession of a weapon charges as violent crimes despite the fact that in the vast majority of states this charge usually relates to possession during an act.

The standards have changed over the years because if it were the same, the public would be calling for law enforcement administrations' heads on a platter and politicians just can't have that.

The W's and Clintons of the world like to tell us they're reducing the crime rate but I'm here to say it ain't so.

Michael Brown

[NikatKimber]

hmm... thanks for the insight MB. That's good to hear from someone who should know what they're talking about! Not that the news is good...

So, I'm doing as much as I can to become a more difficult victim, but anyone have advice on getting new converts? Like trying to talk my parents and sisters into at least being aware and owning a gun? Or friends at church?

[mons meg]

This is classic manipulation fo the UCR.

Not by Mons Meg, but by the Department of Justice.

For instance now if a juvenile is arrested for a violent crime it may not get classified as a "violent crime" because the juvenile doesn't get reverse-certified.

They also don't classify simple assault or assault and battery as violent crimes because of differing statutes.

Fair enough...I wasn't trying to call you out as a Chicken Little, btw...I honestly wanted to know what we might not be seeing in the numbers offered up by DOJ. They admit to changing their protocol in 1993 (as indicated by the shaded area in the graph), right about the time you see the drastic downturn.

As someone once said, "the plural of anecdote is not data." That being said, I think we need to keep our heads on straight when preparing ourselves to counter threats. Just think airline security and TSA, and do the opposite of that and you should be fine. ;)

[Cowman]

I remember reading a book some 10/12 years ago. By a Preacher who had a vision. I think his name was David Wilkerson. Who saw young people who were super predator's roaming in gangs. Now we have MS-13(Mara Salvatrucha) coming in because of our open border. This gang comes mainly from El Salvador. Many were in the army there. They wear blue and white and the weapon of choice is the Machete. And they are very bad people. Gird your loins guys.

[trade_sniper]

I don't think prisoners should be able to train in any type of combat or even lift weights. If they want exercise, put them on a work detail or make them run, thats it. What can we do as a group to band together, find a sympathetic law maker and get something done about this? Maybe if OK passes a law, other states will follow, like they did with our changes to cut down on meth making?

[Cowman]

I hate to tell you. But, the sudo law has not slowed down meth. It is coming in from Mexico big time. I don't think we will win the war on drugs. As long as there is demand there will be supply. We can pass laws but people have to have the want to change their behavior. That blue line is gettin real thin. A cat in his cell doing a 1000 pushups a day. Can get pretty damm stout. Plus other bodyweight workouts.

[BoomerSooner]

Hey Protect! Tell me where those $30.00/hr security jobs are. I'm in security and I sure don't make anything like that!

[Quail Fat]

I work with killers, armed robbers and other violent people every day.

Here's my observations:

1. Low IQ
2. Cannot plan more than 5 minutes into future
3. Fearless
4. Have no empathy
5. Have criminal family
6. Raised in Foster homes and detention centers
7. At home in Prison, very awkward out of Prison
8. If you have something they want, they will not hesitate to take it (girlfriend, watch, car, stereo, shoes, coat, wallet, money)

You see these types walking in packs at the Mall, at the State Fair and elsewhere. As far as street smarts go, they have the advantage.

[First Freedom]

A lot of interesting thoughts... all I can say to the bangers is, better not bring your MMA skills to a gunfight with me. Unless you get the drop on me, which could have been done with a gun or other weapon before MMA came along. The whole demolition man theme is a thought-provoking one, to be sure - cool movie. Lol, Sly thought he was gonna score with Sandra Bullock, until he found out "sex" isn't really "sex". Drat!

The declining physical standards of LEOs, if true, is indeed a concern though - they need to be in shape because they need to CHASE down criminals - something we don't need to do. But we do need to be in shape, not so much to fight, but more so to run away and avoid a fight if possible!

[Christopher]

But we do need to be in shape, not so much to fight, but more so to run away and avoid a fight if possible!

Not that I'm a hardass or anything, I'm just too hard nosed to run away from anyone. I'll avoid a fight if possible, but I aint running!

[First Freedom]

Yeah... but I should have said "...or if outnumbered/outgunned."

[Michael Brown]

A lot of interesting thoughts... all I can say to the bangers is, better not bring your MMA skills to a gunfight with me. Unless you get the drop on me, which could have been done with a gun or other weapon before MMA came along.

This comment underscores the point of the thread, despite being clearly intended to do just the opposite.

Reliance on hardware will lose to reliance on software.

The root of gunfight is "fight" not "gun".

The assumption of equal initiative and proportional armament is extremely dangerous everywhere but a target range.

Is it possible that a weapon will negate other issues? It is certainly possible. Its just an awfully big assumption to make and smacks of bluster.

Its doubtful that anything one says here will have any effect on one's personal protection unless it provokes thought and lifestyle change.

Michael Brown

[MAS GunWorks]

Michael, you aren't telling me anything new. Police aren't trained like they should be and don't have any physical requirements after they get out of the academy. They rely on weapons and numbers to scare most criminals. It has worked so far but like you said the times are changing. Most departments teach the bare minimum. If the officer wants to learn more he has to do it on his own time.

Nice piece.

[MAS GunWorks]

A lot of interesting thoughts... all I can say to the bangers is, better not bring your MMA skills to a gunfight with me. Unless you get the drop on me, which could have been done with a gun or other weapon before MMA came along. The whole demolition man theme is a thought-provoking one, to be sure - cool movie. Lol, Sly thought he was gonna score with Sandra Bullock, until he found out "sex" isn't really "sex". Drat!

The declining physical standards of LEOs, if true, is indeed a concern though - they need to be in shape because they need to CHASE down criminals - something we don't need to do. But we do need to be in shape, not so much to fight, but more so to run away and avoid a fight if possible!

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean in a fight you will be able to use it. If you are close enough you won't have it anymore with a trained fighter unless you are equally trained.

[OkieShooter]

How very true. Better to not rely on a firearm in a hand to hand fight. Through Krav Maga and counter kidnapping/ interrogation training a person can be taught to defend themselves against an armed attacker to disarm and take control. I have seen training done by an Isreali group that teaches defense while handcuffed behind the back. From what I've seen would hate for the LEO's to have to go up against this.

[Man in Black]

years ago Texas had prison system that was self supporting
they grew most all their food and made clothing by growing the sheep and cattle
then some federal judge came along and said prisoner had rights
now that is a great cost to us tax payers

ef9turbo you can get an college education if you want it
i started when i was 38 and finished a 4 year degree by 42
it was not easy as i was working 40 plus hours a week at night
start at community college and look for grants and other ways to get money from the college
start small a couple of classes a semester

woops did not mean to do that oh well


mib

[First Freedom]

Well I just disagree with you about 60% - I think you're right about 40%. Physical fitness in general, and hand to hand training in particular, IS useful, and COULD save your life. But it's not the most important thing. The attitude to fight is the most important thing, which one can have and I do have without any MA/HTH knowledge. The second most important thing is having the right hardware, and the knowledge and skill to implement them (handguns in particular) quickly and effectively. Third would be general physical conditioning in case you need to run away or fight for control of said hardware. And a distant 4th would be actual attacks or counters to MMA or machete nonsense. So my view is different - the root of gunfight is GUN, not fight....

Perhaps Exhibit "A" here will illustrate my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iORmi46dowo

:ou1

Obviously, you are a very wise and learned instructor and fighter, so your mileage may, and does vary. Again, though, I'm agreeing with you mostly - I just think it's more like 60%/40% hardware over software.

[Michael Brown]

Well I just disagree with you about 60% - I think you're right about 40%. Physical fitness in general, and hand to hand training in particular, IS useful, and COULD save your life. But it's not the most important thing. The attitude to fight is the most important thing, which one can have and I do have without any MA/HTH knowledge. The second most important thing is having the right hardware, and the knowledge and skill to implement them (handguns in particular) quickly and effectively. Third would be general physical conditioning in case you need to run away or fight for control of said hardware. And a distant 4th would be actual attacks or counters to MMA or machete nonsense. So my view is different - the root of gunfight is GUN, not fight....

Perhaps Exhibit "A" here will illustrate my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iORmi46dowo

:ou1

Obviously, you are a very wise and learned instructor and fighter, so your mileage may, and does vary. Again, though, I'm agreeing with you mostly - I just think it's more like 60%/40% hardware over software.

While the clip is obviously amusing, its a movie. If we base our concepts on movies, we will have a very different view of fighting than what it really entails. Sadly you are unknowingly relating the greatest problem personal protection instructors deal with.

I base my opinions on a greater than average level of experience and a greater than average commitment to addressing the problem of criminal assault.

Thus I can be fairly confident that when I form an opinion it is not mere speculation and that when I voice it to others they won't get themselves hurt because they relied on my opinion.

Upon what experience or any other medium, specifically, do you base your opinions?

Michael Brown

[Glocktogo]

Well I just disagree with you about 60% - I think you're right about 40%. Physical fitness in general, and hand to hand training in particular, IS useful, and COULD save your life. But it's not the most important thing. The attitude to fight is the most important thing, which one can have and I do have without any MA/HTH knowledge. The second most important thing is having the right hardware, and the knowledge and skill to implement them (handguns in particular) quickly and effectively. Third would be general physical conditioning in case you need to run away or fight for control of said hardware. And a distant 4th would be actual attacks or counters to MMA or machete nonsense. So my view is different - the root of gunfight is GUN, not fight....

Perhaps Exhibit "A" here will illustrate my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iORmi46dowo

:ou1

Obviously, you are a very wise and learned instructor and fighter, so your mileage may, and does vary. Again, though, I'm agreeing with you mostly - I just think it's more like 60%/40% hardware over software.


This should be good! :popcorn:

[J.P.]

Well I just disagree with you about 60% - I think you're right about 40%. Physical fitness in general, and hand to hand training in particular, IS useful, and COULD save your life. But it's not the most important thing. The attitude to fight is the most important thing, which one can have and I do have without any MA/HTH knowledge. The second most important thing is having the right hardware, and the knowledge and skill to implement them (handguns in particular) quickly and effectively. Third would be general physical conditioning in case you need to run away or fight for control of said hardware. And a distant 4th would be actual attacks or counters to MMA or machete nonsense. So my view is different - the root of gunfight is GUN, not fight....

Perhaps Exhibit "A" here will illustrate my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iORmi46dowo

:ou1

Obviously, you are a very wise and learned instructor and fighter, so your mileage may, and does vary. Again, though, I'm agreeing with you mostly - I just think it's more like 60%/40% hardware over software.

While I thought that was a great movie scene, the reality of it is that "Hardware" only amounts to about 1% of the solution.
"Attitude"...or mindset is very important.
One thing is very clear though....nobody ever got better at anything by NOT training.

[First Freedom]

Before I respond in detail, lemme just clarify what I mean, when I say 60% hardware, I mean 60% hardware WITH knowing how to pull it and use it quickly and efficiently under stress/adrenaline, and being aware enough of surroundings to know when to have your hand on or near it when someone's actions get sketchy, before they get too close to you, NOT just the gun itself. So that entails training, training, training (which is "software" of sorts, just not *physical conditioning* and *martial arts skills* type software).

Oh, I'm gonna get hammered - I can feel it. :D

[J.P.]

Before I respond in detail, lemme just clarify what I mean, when I say 60% hardware, I mean 60% hardware WITH knowing how to pull it and use it quickly and efficiently under stress/adrenaline, and being aware enough of surroundings to know when to have your hand on or near it when someone's actions get sketchy, before they get too close to you, NOT just the gun itself. So that entails training, training, training (which is "software" of sorts, just not *physical conditioning* and *martial arts skills* type software).

Oh, I'm gonna get hammered - I can feel it. :D

I just take for granted the the "hardware" works.

the rest is up to the user
You can choose to train/condition or not, but if you choose positively you will certainly have the upper hand.
I don't think anyone could argue otherwise.

[Michael Brown]

Oh, I'm gonna get hammered - I can feel it. :D

I doubt it.

This place is friendly enough.:thumb:

However if you're going to post opinions in the self defense or training forums, I am going to ask you to back those opinions up with something other than ole Indy.

The topics here are too serious to be left to unfounded opinion. That is left to the General Discussions and Legal/Political sections.

Michael Brown

[First Freedom]

Well, bottom line, I have to defer to your expertise (for the most part). And besides, it's mostly pointless to "argue" when the terms "hardware" and "software" are ill-defined, and we may not be on the same page, so likely we'd never get anywhere, conclusion-wise.

I think most everything you say is correct, and I can definitely see some value in knowing BASIC counters to boxing/MMA moves, even if it's just a basic blocking of a punch with the hands, or bobbing/ducking maneuver. But at some point, you get diminishing returns. It would take years of training to get to a level where one could top a YOUNG criminal with basic MMA training if we as victims are on average in our 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and so it amounts mostly to spittin into the wind. We either get some lead on CNS or a major organ or artery, quickly, or we lose the fight, and our wallets and possibly our life. So the MOST critcal thing, above all else, to know is how to get said lead in contact with said body parts, quickly and efficiently, or if using a weapon other than a gun, knowing how to utilize that to full effect, be it OC, a knife, or anything else.

I think would could all agree that we could ALL use more training time. But assuming you have training time (actually we should *make* training time), at some point past a certain level of basic moves, it's gonna serve diminishing returns to learn advanced MMA stuff, when you could instead be spending your time just:
1. Jogging/treadmill. Just basic shape/fitness to last through the first 30 seconds to 1 minute of a struggle without gasping for breath is infinitely more important than trying to learn MMA moves, and since most people are OUT of shape, their time would be vastly better spent just doing ANYTHING cardiovascular at all, not trying to learn some move which doesn't increase their VO2 in the process
2. Basic gun-handling, gun retention, and shooting prowess - IDPA type skills. I think this is a higher priority than jujitsu, boxing, or MMA. Again, since so few people have a high level of proficiency here (myself included), our precious training time is better spent on this, a weapon that makes one somewhere on the order of 10 to 100 times more powerful than the hands and legs of the most powerful MMA fighter or boxer who ever lived - provided they don't get the "drop" on you.

But overall your point is well-taken. We definitely need to do more to counter this new breed of criminal element - just last night on NatGeo channel, on a special on prisons, they mentioned a sobering thought: of all the millions we incarcerate for crimes, roughly one-half of them get released in a given year - and many of them come out far more educated about how to do crime as when they went in, and just as willing or more willing to commit crimes than when they went in. Until we as a society do a better job of rehabilitating rather that just isolating, we need to be ready to protect ourselves. And general fitness level is a woefully deficient area - we are one of the fattest states in the country - terribly out of shape, and it amounts to a crisis of health, but also in this area of defense vs. predators.

I can assure you that anything I say is well-founded in 38 years of experience living on this earth, growing up poor (in rough blue collar neighborhoods) and being in plenty of fights with my brother and others, and a solid modicum of logic, which is market others do not have cornered - not Mas Ayood or Chuck Norris or Uriah Faber or anyone else on earth. So I take great offense at your implication or suggestion that I shouldn't post due to my input not being valuable (If that's what you meant). I have been a wrestler, weightlifter, and otherwise an athlete, and know full well the benefits of fitness. I also once worked as a security guard, and was licensed and went through all the force continuum trainings offered - the basic classes anyway. I also know that when you are small, NO amount of training can allow you to beat someone twice your weight and with half again as much strength, if you have roughly the same fitness level and determination. You either have a weapon, or you lose - it's a simple as that in MANY instances. I learned that the hard way with a bigger big brother. I don't think Faber would be so cocky up against a light heavyweight - ANY light heavyweight.

OK, I'll backtrack a bit - I can see where the posting of the link to the stupid Indiana Jones thing was a bit too silly for the seriousness of the thread - I'll buy that, and if that's all you meant, then mea culpa, and forget what I posted above. But beyond that exception to what I posted, I believe I can offer my logic and experience to help others out as much as anyone. I'll try to refrain from posting links to stupid youtube videos from now on, however. :P :)

[Michael Brown]

Well, bottom line, I have to defer to your expertise (for the most part). And besides, it's mostly pointless to "argue" when the terms "hardware" and "software" are ill-defined, and we may not be on the same page, so likely we'd never get anywhere, conclusion-wise.

I think most everything you say is correct, and I can definitely see some value in knowing BASIC counters to boxing/MMA moves, even if it's just a basic blocking of a punch with the hands, or bobbing/ducking maneuver. But at some point, you get diminishing returns. It would take years of training to get to a level where one could top a YOUNG criminal with basic MMA training if we as victims are on average in our 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and so it amounts mostly to spittin into the wind. We either get some lead on CNS or a major organ or artery, quickly, or we lose the fight, and our wallets and possibly our life. So the MOST critcal thing, above all else, to know is how to get said lead in contact with said body parts, quickly and efficiently, or if using a weapon other than a gun, knowing how to utilize that to full effect, be it OC, a knife, or anything else.

I think would could all agree that we could ALL use more training time. But assuming you have training time (actually we should *make* training time), at some point past a certain level of basic moves, it's gonna serve diminishing returns to learn advanced MMA stuff, when you could instead be spending your time just:
1. Jogging/treadmill. Just basic shape/fitness to last through the first 30 seconds to 1 minute of a struggle without gasping for breath is infinitely more important than trying to learn MMA moves, and since most people are OUT of shape, their time would be vastly better spent just doing ANYTHING cardiovascular at all, not trying to learn some move which doesn't increase their VO2 in the process
2. Basic gun-handling, gun retention, and shooting prowess - IDPA type skills. I think this is a higher priority than jujitsu, boxing, or MMA. Again, since so few people have a high level of proficiency here (myself included), our precious training time is better spent on this, a weapon that makes one somewhere on the order of 10 to 100 times more powerful than the hands and legs of the most powerful MMA fighter or boxer who ever lived - provided they don't get the "drop" on you.

But overall your point is well-taken. We definitely need to do more to counter this new breed of criminal element - just last night on NatGeo channel, on a special on prisons, they mentioned a sobering thought: of all the millions we incarcerate for crimes, roughly one-half of them get released in a given year - and many of them come out far more educated about how to do crime as when they went in, and just as willing or more willing to commit crimes than when they went in. Until we as a society do a better job of rehabilitating rather that just isolating, we need to be ready to protect ourselves. And general fitness level is a woefully deficient area - we are one of the fattest states in the country - terribly out of shape, and it amounts to a crisis of health, but also in this area of defense vs. predators.

I can assure you that anything I say is well-founded in 38 years of experience living on this earth, growing up poor (in rough blue collar neighborhoods) and being in plenty of fights with my brother and others, and a solid modicum of logic, which is market others do not have cornered - not Mas Ayood or Chuck Norris or Uriah Faber or anyone else on earth. So I take great offense at your implication or suggestion that I shouldn't post due to my input not being valuable (If that's what you meant). I have been a wrestler, weightlifter, and otherwise an athlete, and know full well the benefits of fitness. I also once worked as a security guard, and was licensed and went through all the force continuum trainings offered - the basic classes anyway. I also know that when you are small, NO amount of training can allow you to beat someone twice your weight and with half again as much strength, if you have roughly the same fitness level and determination. You either have a weapon, or you lose - it's a simple as that in MANY instances. I learned that the hard way with a bigger big brother. I don't think Faber would be so cocky up against a light heavyweight - ANY light heavyweight.

OK, I'll backtrack a bit - I can see where the posting of the link to the stupid Indiana Jones thing was a bit too silly for the seriousness of the thread - I'll buy that, and if that's all you meant, then mea culpa, and forget what I posted above. But beyond that exception to what I posted, I believe I can offer my logic and experience to help others out as much as anyone. I'll try to refrain from posting links to stupid youtube videos from now on, however. :P :)

If you are basing your opinion on being 38 years old and logical and its good enough for you, then its certainly good enough for me. I don't pay the consequences because someone else declines to prepare.

Thus if any suggestion or implication I make offends you, I cannot be responsible for that.

However what we should not do, as a general practice, is make assumptions based on our self-perceived level of savvy and native intelligence rather than on experience.

Do the work and the answers will be self-evident. If you've done the work, then it really doesn't matter what I have to say as you'll know the answer.

If you haven't then feel free to speculate all you wish in your own mind, but this sub-forum isn''t for idle speculation or ill-founded opinion. The topics are too serious.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

However what we should not do, as a general practice, is make assumptions based on our self-perceived level of savvy and native intelligence rather than on experience...

Amen
:thumb:

[NikatKimber]

If you are basing your opinion on being 38 years old and logical and its good enough for you, then its certainly good enough for me. I don't pay the consequences because someone else declines to prepare.

Thus if any suggestion or implication I make offends you, I cannot be responsible for that.

However what we should not do, as a general practice, is make assumptions based on our self-perceived level of savvy and native intelligence rather than on experience.

Do the work and the answers will be self-evident. If you've done the work, then it really doesn't matter what I have to say as you'll know the answer.

If you haven't then feel free to speculate all you wish in your own mind, but this sub-forum isn''t for idle speculation or ill-founded opinion. The topics are too serious.

Michael Brown

Does what he had to say in that last post mean nothing at all? If I was 45 years old, 400lbs, and just went from sheep to sheep dog, got my CCW, what would be your suggestion as the first thing to do now? What if I'm 23, have carried for 2 years, in decent shape but not by any means good shape, am comfortable with my shooting skills, but need to know what to do next. What would your advice be? Obviously taking a Xth year highly advanced h2h combat class will do me no good. I know nothing or very nearly to it about that stuff.

[Robbo]

Does what he had to say in that last post mean nothing at all? If I was 45 years old, 400lbs, and just went from sheep to sheep dog, got my CCW, what would be your suggestion as the first thing to do now? What if I'm 23, have carried for 2 years, in decent shape but not by any means good shape, am comfortable with my shooting skills, but need to know what to do next. What would your advice be? Obviously taking a Xth year highly advanced h2h combat class will do me no good. I know nothing or very nearly to it about that stuff.

Taking a reality based CQT class is not like taking a "XTH year highly advanced" anything. What it will do is teach you the dynamics of how a criminal assault will MOST LIKELY happen in the real world (vs. in the movies) and what problems you will face in regarding dealing with it (and access to your weapon). Here is a hint, it doesn't matter how many times you've practiced your perfect draw, if you try and draw at the wrong moment. I've seen some highly skilled IDPA/IPSC shooters get completely shut down from simply "going for the gun". Some of the stuff is a little counter intuitive to what you think you should do (I know because I thought the same thing before taking a class).

If you can find like minded individuals to "do the work" as Mike is saying then all you need is some gear to work force on force and a little knowledge on what to train. Since groups of people that are dedicated enough to meet and train this stuff seem to be few and far between, then your best option is a CQT class to learn about it. There are a few places that teach the REALITY based close quarters tactics. One happens to be local and that is USSA. www.usshootingacademy.com Anything from Southnarc is very real world based and great info, but he is not local (does travel though and has done a course here before) http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp. TDSA (local as well) also will be having a close quarters class, though I haven't had any experience with it in it's current incarnation. However, from the classes I've taken there, when Marshall brings in an instructor they have been high quality. www.tdsatulsa.com

I don't have any bone in the argument. I don't gain anything from you attending a class or not as I don't get paid by any of the organizations above... I have worked before (on a volunteer basis, not paid) as a force-on-force opponent (aka - I was the bad guy in the scenarios) so I've seen the lightbulb go off for many people as they realized how they needed to change their thinking on "how it will go down".

Lest you think this is simply a bid to get you to pay for a class, which unfortunately if Mike says what I've said above it seems to always get turned into "Your just trying to get more people in your class" I will re-itterate this. If you can find a few like minded people who are willing to commit to showing up and training, all you need to do is buy training versions of what your carry rig is, some protection suitable for force-on-force (helmet at the least, groin protection), gain a little knowledge on HOW criminals are going to attack you (this is where talking to someone knowledgeable on the facts becomes valuable) and go to town. As Mike said, things will become evident as you try this and try that. A class simply distills all of the things you will figure out by letting you talk to (learn from) guys who HAVE been doing this for years.

Rob

[NikatKimber]

So, the next thing on my list should be "get training" is what you're saying. I know I need it. If I came across as sarcastic, I didn't mean to. What I was asking was, I'm making a list of things I need to do.
For example:

1. Wake up - pull head out of sand
2. Get CCW - mostly because I knew people that had them and knew it was available.
3. Become aware of surroundings, watch back, don't go places I think are higher risk etc...
4. Get good holster - read finding a setup that I "think" works for me.
5. Shoot gun a lot, get comfortably accurate with it.
6. ??? What goes here? This is where I am.
7. ??? What goes here?

I have done what I can on my own, I need something else to go any further. And, is that how I should advise someone who just pulled their head out of the sand? Are there ways that someone else could do better than I did? Just getting through 1,2, and 3 are huge in my opinion. I know that training (classes), getting in better shape, martial arts, and force-on-force "study sessions" are all options, but which one should I put the most priority on? In other words, how do I go from puppy sheepdog, to big snarling you-don't-wanna-mess-with-me sheepdog?

[Robbo]

6. ??? What goes here? This is where I am.
7. ??? What goes here?


I will leave smarter minds on the subject to answer that one.

However, I did want to comment on the part about "being in shape". The priority on that would determine where you are now on the scale of "in shape" I think. I have a friend who has been training a long time. He recently stopped all his MMA/boxing/jiu-jitsu training for several months to focus soley on getting in shape. He felt that his mastery of technique was being hampered by his size, and making those things his focus and conditioning etc. second he was not progressing as fast as he should. As he's dropped weight (and I feel the same way too after losing ~55lbs this last year) the way you can handle your own body, much less someone else attacking you is GREATLY increased.

A lot of a fight depends on agression and attack. I'm not speaking of mindset, but of the physicality of being agressive and attacking...it really doesn't matter what your mindset is if all you can think about is trying to get oxygen. That comes into play just as much during a short explosive burst of FOF as it does in an MMA fight, boxing match or whatever... you will be surprised how taxing a FOF scenario lasting even just 1 minute can be.

Now, for some (me included) it is hard to simply go grind out a treadmill session, or stationary bike session (that's not the best way to get in shape that will help you for a fight anyway) so the beauty is that an MMA class (or jiu-jitsu... or any other martial art that requires training against a resistant opponent) can provide a great method to getting in shape (up to a point). The warm-up at my current school borders on a workout for me because I need to be in better shape... so you can kind of kill two birds with one stone as far as that goes in my opinion. Plus, I figure if I am going to be active ANYWAY, then it might as well be by doing something that will benefit me. Plus you might find you really like doing it :D

Rob

[SMS]

...it really doesn't matter what your mindset is if all you can think about is trying to get oxygen. That comes into play just as much during a short explosive burst of FOF as it does in an MMA fight, boxing match or whatever... you will be surprised how taxing a FOF scenario lasting even just 1 minute can be.


+1. For some it takes a "lightbulb" moment to realize how much energy/exertion/willpower it takes to push through. Nearly a decade ago I had such a lightbulb moment during some military training.

We had a very short obstacle course involving full kit, a 50 yard high crawl, stretcher assembly, 50 yard stretcher carry with live victim and barrier cross, and a 50 yard low crawl to the finish.

We all thought we were in pretty good shape until the end when we were all smoked and gasping for air...then our instructor said "That is how much energy you will have to expend to maybe survive a single firefight".

Nothing changes your mindset like actually testing it....

[Jhamilton]

I will leave smarter minds on the subject to answer that one.

However, I did want to comment on the part about "being in shape". The priority on that would determine where you are now on the scale of "in shape" I think. I have a friend who has been training a long time. He recently stopped all his MMA/boxing/jiu-jitsu training for several months to focus soley on getting in shape. He felt that his mastery of technique was being hampered by his size, and making those things his focus and conditioning etc. second he was not progressing as fast as he should. As he's dropped weight (and I feel the same way too after losing ~55lbs this last year) the way you can handle your own body, much less someone else attacking you is GREATLY increased.

A lot of a fight depends on agression and attack. I'm not speaking of mindset, but of the physicality of being agressive and attacking...it really doesn't matter what your mindset is if all you can think about is trying to get oxygen. That comes into play just as much during a short explosive burst of FOF as it does in an MMA fight, boxing match or whatever... you will be surprised how taxing a FOF scenario lasting even just 1 minute can be.

Now, for some (me included) it is hard to simply go grind out a treadmill session, or stationary bike session (that's not the best way to get in shape that will help you for a fight anyway) so the beauty is that an MMA class (or jiu-jitsu... or any other martial art that requires training against a resistant opponent) can provide a great method to getting in shape (up to a point). The warm-up at my current school borders on a workout for me because I need to be in better shape... so you can kind of kill two birds with one stone as far as that goes in my opinion. Plus, I figure if I am going to be active ANYWAY, then it might as well be by doing something that will benefit me. Plus you might find you really like doing it :D

Rob

I normally don't post here but I just had to add something to what Robbo was saying.
As he said, I've stopped my fight training for a period of time in order to focus more on my physical fitness & conditioning.
Last year I was reading some stuff on Karl Gotch, who wrote something like, "Conditioning is the best weapon."
When I was training I noticed that I wasen't progressing at all and no matter how much I understood about the "Why" the issue was always the "How."
I had done what I know now was just wrong.
My "Fitness" had taken a back seat to my "Fighting" I was whipping the wrong horse....so to speak.
If you want to go back to the Movie refrence..Simon Phoenix was a highly aggresive, Intelligent, Fit, Psychopath..and armed. He was dangerous before the "training" and would be dangerous no matter what time he lived in.
He killed police officers in his time too..not just the new age "soft" ones.
The fight "training" only honed an already sharp knife.
I guess the only thing I can add is just my opinion. (which is worth what it costs)
Training for a fight (Street or Ring) is a noble thing, but more then that you should be training for "Life."
You'll spend more hours of your life out of a fight then in one.
Train for a healthy body, keep a sharp mind, & a sound soul. And as Marc Denny puts it, "Walk as a warrior, for all of your days."
I believe that God puts people here to stand against all the horrible things that are out there. Those who will dispatch with fire & force if they have to.
They just have to stay away from the drive thrus and "Baconators" :puke:

BTW...As of today I have dropped from 346lbs to 261. I grappled recently and the whole moving myself thing was WAY easier. Now I have to develop a ground game..I can't just count on my weight. (as much)
When I hear someone say "do the work" ALL I can think is, "go to the gym first." Thats where all fights are really won.

[FlimFlam]

It basically says that only the police are responsible enough with guns to possess them and that is simply ludicrous.


Well, I've been lurking for a while around here but finally decided to register. I really do appreciate it when law enforcement officers recognize that citizens, when trained in safe use of firearms, can be responsible with guns.

Let's face it, criminals don't mind shooting you (LEO) or me (citizen), so there's a common enemy for the both of us.

[tweetr]

As a police officer, I live for the days when I can be the one to stand between you and violent crime. Its why I took this job.

As a realist, I can tell you that I won't be there and the only one who will be there for you is YOU. You are the only one responsible for your own safety.

Michael Brown

Amen, preach it, brother! Absolutely right. The police are pretty good at figuring out who committed a violent crime against you. They are pretty good at catching the criminal after the fact. The courts are extremely good at placing the criminal in an institution populated by other criminals where he can bulk up and learn more effective criminal techniques, then releasing him back into public. But the police simply aren't able to prevent said criminal from attacking you. Only you can do that. Therein lies (part of) the wisdom of the Second Amendment.

[spd67]

Train like your life depends on it....because it does.

Weather your platform is hand to hand....

Using a gun....

Using a knife...

Train like your life depends on it...because it does...

Your body is your first weapon and you should train and condition it as well...If your too out of shape to get to your gun in that fancy holster around your waist because your belly is too big or get to that gun on your ankle because you can't bend over and reach it then you have nothing more than an expensive paper weight...

learn to move and shoot....learn to fight hand to hand and draw and shoot from the ground...learn to draw off hand and shoot....learn how to transition from hand to hand to gun and then back to hand to hand....do it over and over and over and over again until it is second nature....shoot long range...shoot close up...shoot engaging multiple targets while moving....Learn OODA and how to make it work for you.

And most import Develop a Warriors Mindset...your brain is the muscle that controls everything else. You don't want to just survive a lethal encounter you want to win