What's your carry load?

[J.P.]

I'm currently using Ranger 147gr JHP.
I also like the Golddot 147gr JHP as well but when I'm out of good stuff,I use the WWB USA 147JHP.
What's in your CCW?

[Pigeon]

Right now-.45 ACP Speer Gold Dot 185. Going to try Gold Dot 200 gr. +P.

[J.P.]

Right now-.45 ACP Speer Gold Dot 185. Going to try Gold Dot 200 gr. +P.

I like the 200gr Gold dot in .45acp
The Remington Golden Saber 230gr is another great load that expands reliably to large diameters and has long sharp jacket petals.
Why the 185gr choice?
just curoius.

[Pigeon]

I like the 200gr Gold dot in .45acp
The Remington Golden Saber 230gr is another great load that expands reliably to large diameters and has long sharp jacket petals.
Why the 185gr choice?
just curoius.

185gr is the only defense load I've tried in my 30. It has been 100% reliable (as has everything else I've fed it.)

Is that the 200gr +p Gold Dot you like? I haven't shot any of those yet.

[J.P.]

185gr is the only defense load I've tried in my 30. It has been 100% reliable (as has everything else I've fed it.)

Is that the 200gr +p Gold Dot you like? I haven't shot any of those yet.
Yes 200gr +p
I have a 1911 but don't carry a .45 anymore.
I'm considering a G30 though.

[Michael Brown]

165 grain Remington Golden Saber in 40.
124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot in 9mm.

In case anyone didn't know, in making your choice of a carry load the 3 main considerations should be in order of priority.

1) Reliability: If it doesn't work in your gun, the other two aren't important.

2) Adequate depth of penetration: If it doesn't reach the vitals from all angles, including side shots through the arm, common barrier penetration, etc., then the third doesn't matter.

3) Weight retention: Pistol bullets are impotent compared to long guns so they can't afford to shed their jackets. Bonded bullet technology (Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger in law enforcement loads only, and any company that loads a Speer or Remington bullet in their custom ammo like Black Hills) takes care of much of this problem.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

What makes weight retention so important if adequate penetration occurs anyway?

[Michael Brown]

Because pistol bullets rely on permanany wound cavity for incapacitation.

Rifle bullets can create tissue disruption via the temporary wound cavity created by hydrostatic shock due to the extreme velocity. This velocity floor is generally accepted to be 2300 fps.

No pistol bullet does this, so weight retention increases the probability of a larger permanant cavity.

Michael Brown

[Fasglas]

Anything wrong with Hydra-Shok? That's what is currently in my .357

[Kelly Drown]

That's what I carry in my .40 as well, is the Hydra-shok. I've shot a few off, they seem to be hotter then standard rounds.

[J.P.]

Because pistol bullets rely on permanany wound cavity for incapacitation.

Rifle bullets can create tissue disruption via the temporary wound cavity created by hydrostatic shock due to the extreme velocity. This velocity floor is generally accepted to be 2300 fps.

No pistol bullet does this, so weight retention increases the probability of a larger permanant cavity.

Michael Brown

It would appear that some bullet designs sacrafice expanded diameter as a tradeoff for weight retention.
Example:
Golden Saber 'bonded' and Gold Dots don't seem to reach as large of diameters when compared to non-bonded bullets such as the Ranger or even the old non-bonded GS.

Granted we are dealing with small amounts in every area,but wouldn't it be preferable to choose the load that expands larger (even if it sheds it's jacket) as long as adequate depth is reached?
I'm talking about loads that use the jacket as a wounding mechanism like Rangers or Golden Sabers.

[Michael Brown]

No its not preferable. Recovered diameter in hollow-point bullets means next to nothing because of the test mediums.

Ballistic gelatin isn't designed to replicate human bodies. It is simply a consistent medium (when done correctly and almost nobody does it correctly except the experts) that can give us some insights as to the wounding characteristics of different bullets and how they are affected by different barriers like clothing.

Trauma surgeons generally agree that they cannot tell the difference between wound diameter channels from a 32 and a 45. Thus recovered diameter doesn't mean anything if the bullet doesn't retain enough weight to have a large permanant cavity since tissue stretches and only what is permanantly displaced matters. The difference in diameter from the largest defensive calibers to the smallest is so miniscule that diameter doesn't add up to anything.

Using the jacket as a wounding mechanism is a concept that the bullet manufacturers came up with without any real knowledge of what it would do and did not consult any real experts before doing so.

A lot of that hoopla came from the original Black Talon which was effective because it retained its weight well in 45 not because it had a sharp jacket. As it turned out, this did cause bullet manufacturers to pursue technology that did increase the performance of handgun rounds by developing effective bonded technology.

Throw in the fact that the recovered bullets from humans look nothing like those shot into test mediums (which are also hand selected by the manufacturers to make the round look the most impressive to the eye) and it makes recovered diameter an iffy proposition at best.

All that said, bullet placement will always remain #1.

Michael Brown

[Blinocac200sx]

Corbon 90grain Hollow Point in the Makarov, and Winchester 85grain in the CZ52.

[Pigeon]

165 grain Remington Golden Saber in 40.
124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot in 9mm.

In case anyone didn't know, in making your choice of a carry load the 3 main considerations should be in order of priority.

1) Reliability: If it doesn't work in your gun, the other two aren't important.

2) Adequate depth of penetration: If it doesn't reach the vitals from all angles, including side shots through the arm, common barrier penetration, etc., then the third doesn't matter.

3) Weight retention: Pistol bullets are impotent compared to long guns so they can't afford to shed their jackets. Bonded bullet technology (Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger in law enforcement loads only, and any company that loads a Speer or Remington bullet in their custom ammo like Black Hills) takes care of much of this problem.

Michael Brown

So Michael,
Using this criteria, will a 10mm Speer GoldDot, loaded hot, typically 'git r done'?

[J.P.]

1)Recovered diameter in hollow-point bullets means next to nothing because of the test mediums.

2)Thus recovered diameter doesn't mean anything if the bullet doesn't retain enough weight to have a large permanant cavity since tissue stretches and only what is permanantly displaced matters.

3)A lot of that hoopla came from the original Black Talon which was effective because it retained its weight well in 45 not because it had a sharp jacket.

4)All that said, bullet placement will always remain #1.

Michael Brown

A couple of points to argue,maybe...
1) Recovered diameter and full expansion are two different things.
Most bullets get big then small.
This has been argued but in my tests I have seen it happen.
Some rounds obtain a large diameter as measured from the jacket as it expands. (usually non-bonded ammo)

2)This needs further explanation.
If two bullets have the same diameter,expand at the same rate,penetrate to the same depth,how does the heavier bullet create a larger permanent cavity?

3)Not sure about the track record of the original BT but how can the jackets wounding ability be denied when it expants to a larger diameter than the core? I mean it's contacting tissue...no?

4)Amen.

My homegrown tests are just for fun and nitpicking.
I've learned a couple of things though...
-Handgun rounds are all weak.
-The best whizbanger round on the market won't help you a bit if you don't hit your target.

[Michael Brown]

Don't know anything about the 10mm Gold Dot.

Regarding the weight retention issue, the width of the channel is not nearly as important as the depth and in handgun bullets there is an early point of diminishing returns regarding that width. That is why the Glaser and Magsafe have such poor records. As I said before, trauma surgeons can't tell much of anything about the width of a wound channel because the difference between the biggest and the smallest is so miniscule. Whereas weight retention increases the liklihood of adequate penetration and thus a better (longer) permanant wound channel.

It is not a one or the other type of issue but it is clear from scientific testing that bonded technology has improved the terminal effects of pistol bullets.

Reference issue #2, bonded technology has done just that. This is one reason why caliber has become less important as ammunition technology has changed. It has allowed a round that doesn't have the mass of another to penetrate to adequate depths. Rapid expansion hollowpoints just don't do that in human tissue. They have to reach the vitals from any angle. If you only had to shoot humans straight on like an IDPA target, that wouldn't be a problem, but we all know this isn't so. If they did indeed penetrate to the same depth in ballistic gelatin that would be great. However when something happens to penetrate to the same depth in water jugs, wet newspapers or whatever that does not indicate that its penetrative qualities are the same as regards shooting humans.

If you are interested in this data, go to the IWBA website or check out the work of Dr. Gary Roberts. Really the only two places for legit scientific data for terminal ballistics that's available to anyone.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

From the website:
"A 9mm FMJ bullet that penetrates the heart is not going to produce as effective a wound as a 9mm JHP bullet which has expanded to .60 caliber that penetrates the heart. The rate of blood loss through the hole produced by the FMJ is not going to be as fast as the hole produced by the expanded JHP. Therefore the FMJ bullet's wounding efficiency is inferior to the JHP bullet."

With that,I'll take the greater expanding bullet everytime.(as long as penetration doesn't suffer)

I think we're on the same page,Michael,but just looking at it from two different perspectives.
I'm not concerned whith whether or not a bullet is bonded or retains it's weight as long as it expands reliably (bigger is better) and has adequate penetration.
The Rangers seem to do this well but it is well known that they have jacket seperation problems.
Conversely,the GoldDots hold together well but the expansion is not as big.
Of the two mentioned rounds,I'll obviously choose the larger expanding Ranger since it has adequate penetration.

The non-bonded Golden saber rounds produced greater expansion than the newer bonded line.The expansion of the sharp brass jacket was greater.
Greater expansion= more tissue damage.(with same penetration)
There's no way around that.

Instead of marketing,lesser expanding bobnded loads,I'd like to see a happy medium of the two technologies.
What I mean is...a JHP with a jacket that actually expands to a large diameter (like a Ranger)but doesn't seperate at the base.(Gold Dot)

[Michael Brown]

All things being equal bigger diameter is great. However if you delve into the website further you will find that all things are never equal and that the hollowpoints that expand to the largest diameter for their caliber rarely penetrate deeply enough. This is magnified in smaller bullets.

Plus tissue damage is not equal. An eight-inch long wound channel is different if it is applied to a facing human rather than being shot from the side. Cutting unimportant tissue may be painful but it is not incapacitating. An analogy would be that cuts from a blade may be painful and messy but thrusts from a blade are what incapacitate despite the fact that they are often not as wide. Either can work but I prefer not to rely on pain-tolerance stops. Conversely if you get a big enough blade, cutting will be instantly incapacitating (i.e. a sword). Thus if the bullet was big enough you could get this effect via widdening the wound channel. However the difference between .50 fully expanded and .70 full expanded is just not all that great. I am seeking incapacitation by the most reliable means and that is always penetrating deeply enough to hit vitals no matter what angle a shot is fired from.

A deep-penetrating, wide-expanding hollowpoint would be great. Unfortunately we don't have that technology yet.

I think you'll also find the above quote to be a little out of context when you consider Fackler and Roberts' research. Roberts has a list of rounds that meet the performance criteria that he lays out. He avoids naming "best" rounds but sticks with rounds that do what he lays out as important.

Check out his list and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Michael Brown

[Blinocac200sx]

Anything wrong with Hydra-Shok? That's what is currently in my .357

IMO it's the perfect carry load. It does alot of damage to the target, and minimizes collateral damage risk.

[J.P.]

I think you'll also find the above quote to be a little out of context when you consider Fackler and Roberts' research. Roberts has a list of rounds that meet the performance criteria that he lays out. He avoids naming "best" rounds but sticks with rounds that do what he lays out as important.

Check out his list and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Michael Brown

can you post a link to the list?
I've lost it and can't seem to find it again.

[Michael Brown]

Here's the list by Dr. Gary Roberts: Enjoy. A few have been added in the year and a half since this list was published but it remains a good guide.
--------------------------------------------------

The following loads have all demonstrated outstanding terminal performance:

9 mm:
Barnes 105 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Fed 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Win 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Rem 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer 147 gr JHP (53619)
Win 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Speer 155 gr JHP (53961)
Fed 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Fed 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Rem 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer 180 gr JHP (53966)
Win 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes/Taurus 185 gr JHP
Federal 230 gr Tactical (LE45T1)
Speer 230 gr Gold Dot (23966).
Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon (RA45T)
Winchester 230 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA45TP)

[J.P.]

Thanks for the post Michael.
Ain't nothin' wrong with that list,as far as I can tell. ;)

[J.P.]

165 grain Remington Golden Saber in 40.
124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot in 9mm.


Do you carry the 9mm as a backup or is it an off duty weapon?
(if you can answer that)

[Michael Brown]

Actually the 9mm's are my wife's. I carry either a Glock 22 or 27.

I only carry the 27 in the hottest months while at church. Everywhere else I carry the 22 and just dress for the occasion.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Does TPD require you to carry the .40 off duty?

Just curious as to whether it is a personal choice since you do very well in matches with the 9mm.

[DrBaker]

WWB 147gr JHP

I'm sure they aren't the best, but inexpensive to shoot, goes out the right end with every trigger pull, and it passes the Wam-A-Lart test.

[J.P.]

The WWB 147gr JHP is what i use in a pinch.
It had a good showing in my homegrown tests (that I will post,eventually) but it can shed it's jacket through wallboard,FWIW.
It does really well against garage doors and Ford trucks,however. ;)

[J.P.]

I carry what I practice with. 230 ball. LM
What's the rationale for carrying ball ammo and what are you carrying it in?

[J.P.]

It is common. You dont get it mixed up with your other ammo. Different ammo handles, feeds and recoils differently. Some but not all pistols require tweaking to handle hollow points, shaped or different loads.

If I practice with what I carry, and it is the same all the time, less chance for surprises. Clear as mud? My preference Federal Eagle LM

What gun are you carrying that won't feed hollowpoints 100%?
Surely you could find a JHP similar in preformance to your FMJ .
While there is no suck thing as 'stopping power',JHPs have been proven to be more effective.
To each his own,I guess.

[Michael Brown]

J.P.,

I carry the same gun on-duty as off. We are allowed to carry any Glock in any caliber except the Glock 25 and Glock 18.

I choose it because its the gun I'm most documentably trained with. I don't know what I'd carry if I wasn't issued a pistol but I suspect it would be the same one in a non-compensated format.

Reallistically I don't give it a lot of thought because I feel comfortable with just about any Glock and don't feel like any full-sized Glock does the job any better than another. I'm much bigger on the human operator than the gear. I shoot the G17 at matches just becaus its cheap ammo. No other reason. I shoot the G22 about as well.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Interesting Mike,thanks for the reply.
I would have figured you shot 9mm in IDPA because it recoils slightly less.

[Michael Brown]

Not enough to really make a difference to me. If 40 were $85 per case for factory ammo, I'd probably shoot that. In IDPA its not a big deal because of the nature of the stages. In IPSC Production its a bigger deal because speed is the dominant factor. I'm a points shooter who goes fast, not the other way around.

I also have two 17's set up like my duty gun, which is what comprises the bulk of my practice, because the ammo is so cheap.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

How is your duty gun set up?
It has the "Tulsa Trigger", NY-1 trigger and 3.5# connector for about a 6.6lb pull,correct?

[bigbadge]

I carry:

Winchest Ranger T series in 45 ACP and 9mm

Winchester Sivertips in 357 magnum, 10mm, 41 Magnum and 44 Special

Federal Nyclad in 38 Special

Gold Dot in 40 S&W

Don

[capmarine]

.357sig glock-ranger 125gr sxt-will shoot it up,its old.now carry golddot-125gr.gdhp

[okiecruffler]

I'm sure to get flamed for this, but I carry my own loads. In my 357 snubby I use a 125gr Gold Dot with a heavy charge of Blue Dot. I just started carrying a PT145 and I haven't settled on a load for it yet, but I'm leaning toward a 185gr bullet pushed by either Blue Dot, or Bullseye.

[Michael Brown]

Don't make me break out a molotov cocktail!!!!! :grumble:

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Alright okiecruffler,now you got the big guy fired up.
Don't say I didn't warn you....

[J.P.]

Now that I'm carrying a P228 I'm using Golden Saber 124gr+P Bonded rounds.
Between the standard and bonded in the same weight and velocity,I'm not 100% convinced that I don't like the non-bonded better in this particular load.
I remember the bonded version having a little more difficulty expanding but I'll have to dig through my data to be sure until I can do further testing.

Eventually I'm going to get with GMThunder and do some multi caliber testing
Before we do it,we will make an announcement so we can see what kinds of ammo we have personally and see if we can aquire some from other members to test.

[camocowboy777]

.45 acp handloads.

200 grain hornady XTP over 5.5 grains of Titegroup.

[azmrb]

9mm - Remington 124 +P Golden Saber
.38sp - Buffalo Bore 158gr SWC-HP

[centraloklahoma]

Glock 22C. 165 Grain Speer Gold Dot, 40 cal.

[MaddSkillz]

9mm 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot.

[olyeller]

dont ask bulbboy, he's loadless.

[Hugh]

.40 in Corbon @ 1,325 fps. GLOCK 23.

[SoonerShooter08]

Glock 22C. 165 Grain Speer Gold Dot, 40 cal.
Exactly what I use. Same weapon and ammo choice. I get my carry ammo from Double Tap Ammunition. I also tried the 180 grain gold dots and, while recoil was less, they didn't feed as reliably for some reason.

[BurkLee]

Golden Saber in both my .40 and my .45. Seems to feed better in just about everything,

[j0sh]

124gr Federal HST +P

[J.P.]

Update:

I switched all of my carry ammo in every caliber over to Hornady TAP some time ago.

[Surveyor1653]

180 grain Winchester Ranger T-Series in .40

[T.R.]

175 grain Winchester Silvertip in 10mm auto.

[dennishoddy]

No its not preferable. Throw in the fact that the recovered bullets from humans look nothing like those shot into test mediums (which are also hand selected by the manufacturers to make the round look the most impressive to the eye) and it makes recovered diameter an iffy proposition at best.

All that said, bullet placement will always remain #1.

Michael Brown

I found an article from a doctor that performs autopsies in the Dallas/Ft worth metro area. In it he discussed the way different rounds go thru the human body. It changed the way I think about what I want to carry. He said that bones, etc should be inserted in the ballistic gellelitin to more simulate the human body
In his observations there were more 1 shot kills from pistol rounds in the .45 acp and the .357 than any other. His comment was that it took multiple rounds in 9mm, .38, and .380 to bring the perp down. this is the kind of information that I believe in.

I will concede that most BG's are not going to carry premium ammo, and get what they can get, and that may account for some of that data. I'll do a search and see if I can find that article.

[dennishoddy]

In my .380 I carry the 90 gr gold dot. In the .45acp I use the 230 grain gold dots. While at the Okla wildlife expo I talked to the guy from the Okla shooting academy. He said that in .45 ACP the speer gold dot was best, as some of the other rounds had a problem maintaining any accuracy going thru a windshield. He had 30 years in law enforcment.

[Mike Swofford]

Hornady TAP or Corbon. Keep heavier loads in guns during winter(155 gr TAP) and lighter faster moving stuff when it is warm like the 135 gr Corbon in 40sw. Same thought with the 9mm and 45acp.

:patriot:

[prdator]

Well I've gone all over the place but as of late have been solid in the HST dep.
124gr+p 9mm, 155 and 180 gr 40, 230gr+p45.

Also carry winchester 127gr+p+ 9mm double tap 124gr+p golddot

I think as long as its "good" ammo skills matter more.. and really they matter the most....

[J.P.]

Of course skills are the most important thing andf frankly these days it'd be hard to find a "bad" load.
I view these types of discussions as just a way to optimize load selection because there really is a lot of hair spliting.

An important word to those who carry Federal HST
Federal has more recently begun to enforce their "LE only" policy with dealers. If I understand it correctly (and I believe I do), all 50rd boxes are restricted to LE sales only.
Since HST is only available in 50rd boxes, it falls under that policy and is now unavailable to the general public.
Even some online vendors are now requiring LE credentials when ordering HST.
I think it's always been this way but the difference now is that Federal is more vigorously enforcing their policy, and some vendors have been "cut off" for violating Federal's policy.
So....I wouldn't get used to having it unless you have a LE connection who can order it for you. Right now there is still a ton of HST in the pipeline but it'll eventually dry up.
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the HST in the heaviest weight offerings from each caliber I've tried, but it's still not my #1 choice.

[Shifty]

I carry Hornady TAP 230gr. for my XD compact .45. Sounds like youve got the most important information. There is no magic bullet, no matter what your shootin, if ya dont hit the goodies, it dont matter.

[Protect]

Winchester RA40T

[J.P.]

We'll all be carrying Blazer or WWB before too long...
People are pricing 50rd boxes of Gold Dots,Sabers, etc. $45+

[prdator]

Of course skills are the most important thing andf frankly these days it'd be hard to find a "bad" load.
I view these types of discussions as just a way to optimize load selection because there really is a lot of hair spliting.

An important word to those who carry Federal HST
Federal has more recently begun to enforce their "LE only" policy with dealers. If I understand it correctly (and I believe I do), all 50rd boxes are restricted to LE sales only.
Since HST is only available in 50rd boxes, it falls under that policy and is now unavailable to the general public.
Even some online vendors are now requiring LE credentials when ordering HST.
I think it's always been this way but the difference now is that Federal is more vigorously enforcing their policy, and some vendors have been "cut off" for violating Federal's policy.
So....I wouldn't get used to having it unless you have a LE connection who can order it for you. Right now there is still a ton of HST in the pipeline but it'll eventually dry up.
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the HST in the heaviest weight offerings from each caliber I've tried, but it's still not my #1 choice.



JP.

hey just FYI you can still buy HST's just not in the 50rd boxes ( like you said, they are drying up fast) Now you can get it as I belive Homland defender fear no evil. It is in 20rd boxes and cost like $29.00 per box:rolleyes2 but at least you can get it.

So why do you like the Hornady round I've looked at them and just cant go there.

[J.P.]

JP.
hey just FYI you can still buy HST's just not in the 50rd boxes ( like you said, they are drying up fast) Now you can get it as I belive Homland defender fear no evil. It is in 20rd boxes and cost like $29.00 per box:rolleyes2 but at least you can get it.
Got a link?

[prdator]

Got a link?


Ah no I H&H has them on the shelf 9mm, ( gone) 40 and 45acp.

I have a "bunch" of the 50rd boxes so I have not looked for it online.

Did a quick serch did not find it.

[J.P.]

Ah no I H&H has them on the shelf 9mm, ( gone) 40 and 45acp.

I have a "bunch" of the 50rd boxes so I have not looked for it online.

Did a quick serch did not find it.

No offense, but I don't believe it.
Never even remotely heard of HST in anything but 50rd boxes.....because they do not exist.
I don't think you're lying, I think you are mistaken.

[prdator]

No offense, but I don't believe it.
Never even remotely heard of HST in anything but 50rd boxes.....because they do not exist.
I don't think you're lying, I think you are mistaken.



JP. Im not Mistaken, HST is easy to reconize I've looked at rounds and the boxes and recomeded it to some of my friends...
Compared my ammo to it.. same same..

If you dont belive me call H&H 405-947-3888 and ask...

here is the only link that I could find as prof
http://arizonapersonalprotection.com/UPDATE.aspx

[Saur]

An important word to those who carry Federal HST
Federal has more recently begun to enforce their "LE only" policy with dealers. If I understand it correctly (and I believe I do), all 50rd boxes are restricted to LE sales only.
Since HST is only available in 50rd boxes, it falls under that policy and is now unavailable to the general public.
Even some online vendors are now requiring LE credentials when ordering HST.
I think it's always been this way but the difference now is that Federal is more vigorously enforcing their policy, and some vendors have been "cut off" for violating Federal's policy.
So....I wouldn't get used to having it unless you have a LE connection who can order it for you. Right now there is still a ton of HST in the pipeline but it'll eventually dry up.
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the HST in the heaviest weight offerings from each caliber I've tried, but it's still not my #1 choice.

Well that explains a lot. :T I currently carry 230gr HST's and the wife has 147gr HST's, but I haven't been able to find any for sale for awhile now.

[T.R.]

There is a pretty good discussion about the current situation with Federal HST going on at http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994836. Don't know that it actually settles anything, but it's an interesting read.

[prdator]

Well one of my contacts at H&H found this http://homelanddefender.com/

That is logo on the box.

[YukonGlocker]

I've never seen 20 rd. boxes of HST either.
Good thing I bought a bunch of 50 rd. boxes for $18 per box a while back.

[J.P.]

JP. Im not Mistaken, HST is easy to reconize I've looked at rounds and the boxes and recomeded it to some of my friends...
Compared my ammo to it.. same same..

If you dont belive me call H&H 405-947-3888 and ask...

here is the only link that I could find as prof
http://arizonapersonalprotection.com/UPDATE.aspx

Okay, I think we are both right....sort of...

I googled an article on this:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_12_51/ai_n17096103

It is not labeled as "Federal Homeland Defender HST", it is a new line which presumably uses the HST bullet.
The brand itself is called "Homeland Defender"

So....
-There still are no Federal HST available in anything but 50rd boxes.
-Another new company using the name "Homeland Defender" may be loading the HST in their line and offering 20rd boxes.

Anyway, I *think* that sums it up.

Like I said, I meant no offense to you, there is just a lot of misinformation out there....and there are also a lot of people who simply do not know or recognize the difference between Federal's:
Hydra-Shock, Hi-shock, and HST.
In this case it would appear that the truth lies somewhere between your's and mine opinion. ;)

Thanks for the info

[Shadowrider]

Well I'm having a hell of a time getting ANY good SD ammo. Gold Dots, Federal, Ranger, I don't care. It's all out of stock. So I thought OKAY I'll just load my own using Gold Dots or XTP's. Guess what? Out of Stock. I did score a small stash of each the other day but nowhere near what I wanted.

J.P. I think we are already there at the point of carrying WWB. Moral of this story is, If you see the good stuff available. GET IT!!!

[YukonGlocker]

I ordered some Gold Dots from Natchess just last week.

[jhurst]

230gr gold dot from double tap in the .45

[Shadowrider]

I ordered some Gold Dots from Natchess just last week.

20rd packs? I was wanting some 50 rounders in 9mm +P. I may get some of the 20's anyway. Just hate to buy ammo in the small box.

I'm old, pistol ammo is supposed to come in 50 rd boxes. :pissed:

[YukonGlocker]

Yes, they were 20 rd. boxes. I was ordering some rifle ammo; so I just added a few of the little boxes of GD because they were in stock.

[T.R.]

20rd packs? I was wanting some 50 rounders in 9mm +P. I may get some of the 20's anyway. Just hate to buy ammo in the small box.

I'm old, pistol ammo is supposed to come in 50 rd boxes. :pissed:

Yep. It seems completely unethical for ammo manufacturers to do this. Let's see now........20 rounds of Homeland Defender for $29, or 50 rounds of HST for $20 for commissioned LEO through the department. Seems like a mighty high-handed attitude on the part of the manufacturer.

[prdator]

Okay, I think we are both right....sort of...

I googled an article on this:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_12_51/ai_n17096103

It is not labeled as "Federal Homeland Defender HST", it is a new line which presumably uses the HST bullet.
The brand itself is called "Homeland Defender"

So....
-There still are no Federal HST available in anything but 50rd boxes.
-Another new company using the name "Homeland Defender" may be loading the HST in their line and offering 20rd boxes.

Anyway, I *think* that sums it up.

Like I said, I meant no offense to you, there is just a lot of misinformation out there....and there are also a lot of people who simply do not know or recognize the difference between Federal's:
Hydra-Shock, Hi-shock, and HST.
In this case it would appear that the truth lies somewhere between your's and mine opinion. ;)

Thanks for the info



Just an update on this, I stopped by H&H today and looked at the Homeland defender ammo. the part# is HLD40HST1, 180 gr 40S&W and it has Fed hedstamp on the brass, nickel plated and has the HST, allso has the Fed Address on the box.
I looked at my HST ( 50rd boxes) and the part# is P40HST1 for the40S&W 180 gr HST.

So it looks like Federal is selling the HST's though Ellet Bros in 20rd boxes at an inflated price to us civilans.:rolleyes2

This is kinda mute now as Ammo to Go has/had a new supply of HST's in 50rd boxes.. buy it wile you can..

[J.P.]

Just an update on this, I stopped by H&H today and looked at the Homeland defender ammo. the part# is HLD40HST1, 180 gr 40S&W and it has Fed hedstamp on the brass, nickel plated and has the HST, allso has the Fed Address on the box.
I looked at my HST ( 50rd boxes) and the part# is P40HST1 for the40S&W 180 gr HST.

So it looks like Federal is selling the HST's though Ellet Bros in 20rd boxes at an inflated price to us civilans.:rolleyes2

This is kinda mute now as Ammo to Go has/had a new supply of HST's in 50rd boxes.. buy it wile you can..

Interesting, thanks for the update.

Yeah, I think it's total BS for the ammo companies to gyp us like this.

(true story)
Now we're seeing 50rd boxes of SD ammo at gun shows for....$40-$50!
Are you kidding me!?

[KurtM]

All this talk about new ammo has got me thinking maybe I should get something newer for my 1911 than the 1918 W.R.A. ball ammo I have been carrying all these years :laughup: