Got penetration? (Remington 147gr Golden Saber tested)

[J.P.]

I planned to test for accuracy,penetration,and expansion through denim and bare water bags.

Unfortunately the tests didn't go as planned because I locked my keys in the truck among other things,so I only got one recovered expanded round to show.

I shot the rounds into a row of 1gal freezer bags full of water.
(I had to line them up in a cardboard box because someone accidentally thew my "Fackler box" into the burn pile. ;)
One round penetrated 5 bags,dented the backstop board severely and was never recovered.
The rounds definitely felt like the hottest 147gr JHPs,I've ever shot.
Not sure exactly what the factory spec is but I *think* it is around 1037 fps....again,not positive

Here is the box...

[J.P.]

oops,i got knocked off line...

The round penetrated 6 bags and knocked a dent in the board behind the box.
the round was recovered fully expanded with jacket laying seperate from the core in the sixth bag.

Recovered diameter of the jacket was .94"! and the slug was measured at .44"
when the jacket is manually peeled open to show how much full expansion it achieved,it measures 1.31"
This is the most penetration and expansion of any 9mm I've tested this way.
Here are a couple of views of the recovered round...

[J.P.]

the round showed reasonably early expansion as evidenced by the entrance holes in the bags.
The last shot is of the exit side of the sixth bag.
Apparently the round took the bag and cardboard box with it into the board and then bounced back.

[J.P.]

The rounds tested were the remington Golden Saber 147gr BJHP (non-bonded) that i grossly overpaid for at Sports world $17 and change,out the door, for 25 rd. :scratch:
They usually run $8.95-$12.95 plus tax but nobody else has them.

I will do better and more comparative tests with better pics as time/money allow. (I'm always open to ammo donations and test requests ;) )

[edgargarrett]

Excellent! I once tested a bunch of .38 & .357 loads from snubbies that way. They penetrate alot more in water than you originally anticipate, eh? I would line up the entire tailgate of my pickup with bags of water so as to catch the bullet and get an idea of how much penetration I was getting. With water I'm told, you get almost double the penetration and similar expansion as compared to ballistic gelatin.

[J.P.]

From what I understand,water causes overexpansion when compared to gelatin.

Using Milk jugs lined up in a row,I've never needed more than six even with the .44mag Silvertip.
Typically,rounds of all calibers are caught in the 3rd or 4th jug.
The reason i switched to bags was twofold....
1)They are easier to aquire and handle than are milk jugs.
2)I have reason to believe that since there are no rigid portions like with jugs,that it simulates gel just a little more closely.
They stretch more and show smaller wound channels more in line with tissue.

I'll probably experiment with wetpack next.
One of these days,I'll get some gel and when I do I'll post lots of pictures unlike the "other" guys. ;)

[DrBaker]

Got Penetration?

I thought this was a family oriented environment.

[stepper]

Thats interesting!

I carry Ranger 147grain right now. I've never shot the golden sabers, so I may grab some and see how they do. :gun1:

[J.P.]

They are definitely the hottest feeling 147gr load I can remember.

[chvylvr350]

Just got through watching Mythbusters on the Discovery channel. The were testing the myth of "bullet proof water". The .233, .30-06, and .50 BMG all fragmented and lost all velocity at around 3.5' of water. This was shooting into a pool, at the edge at a 28 degree angle. Slower rounds from a blackpowder rifle and 9mm were much more effective.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised because water doesn't compress very much at all. Hell bomb squads use high pressure water cannons on robots to blow bombs apart before they can detonate.

P.S. sorry if this is off topic somewhat, but because you were shooting into water I thought it was interesting.

[J.P.]

I'm *trying* to get gelatin going but it looks like it will be a long while.

[stepper]

The rounds tested were the remington Golden Saber 147gr BJHP (non-bonded) that i grossly overpaid for at Sports world $17 and change,out the door, for 25 rd. :scratch:
They usually run $8.95-$12.95 plus tax but nobody else has them.

I will do better and more comparative tests with better pics as time/money allow. (I'm always open to ammo donations and test requests ;) )

Outdoor America has these for $9.99 per box of 25.

You paid a little much for them. At least you helped out your local gun store though!! :gun1: :gun1: :gun1:

[J.P.]

OPS has the 124gr bonded and non-bonded for $8.99/25
I can't find the 147gr anywhere else locally.
I have a feeling the 124gr bonded GS is going to be my new carry round.

[okla-lawman]

I have quite a bit of experience with different mediums for ballistic testing. On of my Masters research projects was "The effects of missle velocity on soft tissue injuries".
I did a brief comparisom of some of the mediums. Ballistic gelatin supposedly recreates
human muslce. The problem with that is that the human body is 85% water. I infact beleive you night get a closer read with the Fackler box. On thorassic shots though
you have a lot more bone. the air filled sacs of the lungs and so forth and that makes
bullet performance irratic. When I was at tha Armed Forces Institute of Pathology The were still doing live animal shooting. They used pigs to determine bullet performance
as their make up is closest over all to a humans. The Strasbergh test used goats. Their
chest cavity is very close to a humans. Those reults should be fairly close to an actuall human. I dont beleive the test were not done in the US though.
If you really want to play with gelatin, it is fairly expensive and usually a one shot deal. I have heard that Corbin, the company that makes the bullet swedging equipment
is suppoesedly selling a reusable gelatin.

[okla-lawman]

Personally I would forget any 147 grn 9mm load. I am familiar with several shootings as well as reports.They tend to overpenetrate and do not expand.
In my 9mm I carry either Corbon 115+P+ or 124 gold dot +p. Both have a far better stopping record.

[J.P.]

Personally I would forget any 147 grn 9mm load. I am familiar with several shootings as well as reports.They tend to overpenetrate and do not expand.
In my 9mm I carry either Corbon 115+P+ or 124 gold dot +p. Both have a far better stopping record.

I'd really like to see a link to evidence of that stopping record as well as accounts of those reports.
What exactly happened?
I have a hard time believing that either of those rounds have a "far better" stopping record.
There are too many variables involved to predict any sort of mythical 'stopping power' but bullets can be compared against one another in various medium.
What do you think about the validity of wet newspaper for testing compared to the other methods?

[burner]

That is a cool test!
I'm going to try something like that when I get enough time.
I heard that newspaper is a good test too,so that's what i'm going to try.

[J.P.]

I'll be doing some more tests with wet newspaper that include various barriers,such as bone,denim,steel,etc.
I'm going to try to use as many brands as possible.
It will be a while before I can get them done but I'll post pics of everything when I do.

[JASON RYAN@OPS]

Jp, Let Me Highly Recommend Trying The Rem 124+p Bonded.. Ive Been To Several Fbi Gel Shoots And This One Always Comes Up At The Top Of The Pack. Other Good 9mms Include The Speer 115 +p+gold Dot And The Winchester 127 +p+ Ranger Talon. In The Tests Ive Witnessed These Are Always The Best.

[J.P.]

But I can't *get* any of the GS bonded 124gr +p rounds.


Next i'll be doing the following:

Ranger T 127gr +p+ and 147gr

golden saber 124gr +p and 147gr

Hydra-shok 147gr

Winchester white box 115gr and 147gr

Federal HST 124gr and 147gr





Gold Dot 124gr and 115gr (both standard pressure)

CorBon 115gr +p

Hornady TAP 124gr and 147gr

Golden Saber 124gr+p