knife question

[okgr8outdrs]

In this section of the SDA

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

does spring-type knife include assisted opening knives such as those made by Buck and Kershaw?

[Michael Brown]

I have heard both ways form people who should know.

My inclination is to think that it probably won't be a problem criminally but I have been proven wrong before. Most police officers and ADA's aren't familiar enough with these type of items to make a case out of it.

Also keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer and certainly not competent to give legal advice.

Carry a fixed blade knife and call it a day. You'll have a better and more accesible weapon and you'll be 100% legal if you choose one that's not covered in the paragraph above.

Michael Brown

[walpur6isknight]

i hope not, someone, some input please?
i like my kershaw!

[walpur6isknight]

^-lmao, i think you beat me by a couple of seconds mike brown.

[okgr8outdrs]

I had a Buck Rush that was more of a tool to me than a weapon. While visiting the St. Loius Arch, it was mistakenly identified as a switchblade, confiscated and I was given a citation for $100. It had a 2.5 inch blade, and I later discovered that a knife with a blade less than 2.5 inches was not considered a dangerous weapon and can be carried into federal facilities, just not federal courts. They seemed to be more concerned with the method of opening than the blade length, because the latter is a more serious charge. I paid my fine rather than fight it and risk getting charged with the greater infraction.

That was last July, I still haven't replaced it because I haven't found anything that I like. I am considering buying another and removing the spring just to be on the safe side.

[Michael Brown]

Yeah, its always a chance because you can never tell how well-informed law enforcement is on the technicalities of weapons law. It sucks but its the way it is.

I try to just stay completely to one side and not worry. I just don't get enough out of a Kershaw or other assisted-opening blade to risk the possibility of being arrested.

I think in the end, it would be a charge I would win, but as I said, I just try to stay completely clear of the controversial items especially when there is a better, 100% legal, substitute in a small fixed blade.

Saps and Blackjacks on the other hand, there's no good substitute for. :nolike:

Wish they were legal to carry.

Michael Brown

[kgull85]

I think in the end, it would be a charge I would win, but as I said, I just try to stay completely clear of the controversial items especially when there is a better, 100% legal, substitute in a small fixed blade.

What is your idea of the legal substitute?

[J.P.]

Yes,I would like to know as well,Michael.
I was under the impression that all fixed blades were illegal.
That's the only reason I carry a tactically worthless folder.

[dogbear]

I was told that you could have a switch blade or spring type knife in your home but not on your person.There is a guy that sells hubertus german made switchblades at the gun show.The guy in front of me was a cop and he bought one.So I asked him.He said it is up to the officer but most wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless you were committing a crime.

[Michael Brown]

"dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife"

As long as its not one of these, it's legal to carry.

I carry the Shivworks Clinch Pick or Disciple or the Ka-Bar TDI model depending on my attire. These are all single-edge, small, legal fixed blades.

Its commonly known what a Bowie is and none of these knives could be mistaken for one. A dagger or dirk has two sharpened sides. since they are fixed blades, none is opened at all much less by any spring.

The catch-all is the phrase "any other offensive weapon". To prove this, a court would have to establish intent for the weapon to be used offensively if its not in any of these catagories and I would gladly fight that battle. If you are concerned about being lumped into this group, a folder would be illegal too, which I'm confident couldn't be prosecuted without intent.

As far as owning a switchblade, that's fine. The laws relate to carrying not possession. You can own a Blackjack or Sap or any of the other devices mentioned and lawfully use them in self-defense in your home.

You just can't carry them concealed.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I was told that you could have a switch blade or spring type knife in your home but not on your person.There is a guy that sells hubertus german made switchblades at the gun show.The guy in front of me was a cop and he bought one.So I asked him.He said it is up to the officer but most wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless you were committing a crime.

Although it *is* "letter of the law" illegal,I know people who regularly get stopped with them and the officers could care less and have even remarked "nice knife".
Of course,just because that happens to some folks doesn't mean you should tempt fate,and we here at the OSA would never advocate illegal activity.

[J.P.]

Mike,thanks for the clarification.
The double edge is obviously makes the difference.

[skyydiver]

Can I ask where you carry a good concealed fixed blade? Are there IWB sheaths for knives? Strong or weak side. This idea interests me. Obviously training would be required, good thing there are resources for that around here too.

[Michael Brown]

Can I ask where you carry a good concealed fixed blade? Are there IWB sheaths for knives? Strong or weak side. This idea interests me. Obviously training would be required, good thing there are resources for that around here too.

I carry mine forward of the hip either vertically or horizontally. All of mine are OWB. Forward of hip carry is ideal for most weapons, including firearms because lack of shoulder articulation during the draw makes it very strong against aversion during a struggle. Firearms are generally uncomfortable to carry in this manner, but knives are not.

They do make good IWB sheaths as well. My opposition to kydex does not apply to knives as I think kydex is one of the best materials for knife sheaths.

The Crawford/Kasper Companion is a great choice by CRKT. Its only $35 or so with two sheaths, one of which is IWB. It was the one I used before I found the Shivworks knives. Its nice because most people wouldn't even know they were looking at a serious fighting knife.

I like the Shivworks and TDI knives because a blunt training version is available for both. If you carry a knife, get a trainer version and learn to be good with it.

Michael Brown

[skyydiver]

Thank you, sir.

[J.P.]

Michael,what is your preference as to serrated vs. plain egde and why?

[okla-lawman]

We got a Da's ruling on the spring assist and they said they were NOT a prohibited weapon as they did not have a button or other device to operate.

Dogbear Police and fire are specifically allowed to carry switchblades. I don't do the legal ramifications in a CIVIL situation (carrying a hoodlums weapon) besides
it is not any faster to open than my emerson.

The polkowski inspired Crawford companion is a great knife. My name has been on the waiting list for over a year for a real Polkowski. The only thing that sucks
about the CRKT version is the sheath. I am ordering one from River city Knives. It is a lot thinner and lighter and offers more carry options. I have also thought about taking the scales off of one and wearing it like a neck knife. Most of the heft of the knife is in the scales. I carry it off duty. I carry a Pat Crawford custom knife on duty.

[J.P.]

okla-lawman,refrence my last post also.

[Michael Brown]

Michael,what is your preference as to serrated vs. plain egde and why?

It doesn't matter in the least.

A combat knife system must be thrust-dependant, not cut-dependant so the edge is largely unimportant as long as it is sharp.

Michael Brown

[okla-lawman]

Plain or serrated. For slicing I think as well as others say serrated are better cause the serrations help dig into clothing, skin and so forth keeping the knife from glancing off. One knife I have is a cold steel desperado and it's cutting ability is scary. It is just not the serrations but the way the blade is shaped. It actually digs in as you cut.
I think serrations work well for shorted knives where you are going to be slicing such as trying to cut tendons to imobolize, start the subject bleeding and working your way to the throat if it goes that far. For longer knives that can get suffient penetration, ie 5" or more go with a reugular blade as they are easier to sharpen. As far as knife performance there is a lot more to consider. Bladed type, grind, and so fort all effect performance. I prefer knives that have bellies on them. The CRKT crawford mentioned above does. My get them off me knife is a small crawford(real one not a copy) that has a tanto blad but also has a belly. My everyday folder is an emerson commander. A knife that is known for deep slashing ability, the blade on it has a belly and is ground so that actually pulls deeper as force is applied. That Desperado I mentioned above has a curved blade like a belly. I attacted a roast with it with slashes (it was going for bbq anyway) and its slashing was well amazing. If you get a chance there is a video out there called tactical folders. It can open your eyes what a small knife can do.

Fyi I studied more Okinawan base systems and slashing is everything. Your ulitmate target is the throat. I guess you need to pick one that will fit your needs.

[J.P.]

Thanks for the info,okla-lawman.

[Michael Brown]

My opinion is a little more on the simple side.

1) Get a good fixed blade knife that you will always carry.

2) Get good with it and don't worry about anything else regarding equipment until you do.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I'm thinking of picking up a couple of Ka-Bar TDIs soon.

Can I carry two of these concealed plus my firearm concealed?
(with CWL)

[Michael Brown]

I'm thinking of picking up a couple of Ka-Bar TDIs soon.

Can I carry two of these concealed plus my firearm concealed?
(with CWL)

I don't think you're breaking any laws by doing so.

Michael Brown

[okla-lawman]

I think the Kabar is an interesting knife. I would like to play with one before makng judgement.

mike +1 on practacing.

A few years back Newt Livesay modified a knife for me to carry behind my mag pouches. It was a small fixed blade. It was about 6 inches with a 2-21/2"
blade. He liked the idea so much he made up a few more. Well it did get the ultimate test. a Mo. State trooper was on a traffic stop. He brought the violator back to his car's front seat (this is not a commit on that tactic). The subject went for the troopers gun. In the insuing struggle the trooper had the mindset to go for the knife (I do not know how much practice he had) The trooper remebers stabbing the guy once. The bad guy got out of the car and ran. Backing officers got there and the car is covered in blood. There is a blood trail from the car that disappears in the woods. 46 minutes later the bad guy shows up at a local hospital. He was stabbed once in the shoulder like the trooper rembers and twice in the throat. One of them missed the carotid by a few cm.Bad guy goes to jail and happy ending. I have always said if you carry a gun you should carry a knife. :wink2:

[Michael Brown]

I think the Kabar is an interesting knife. I would like to play with one before makng judgement.

:

It's not my favorite for plainclothes, but I think as a knife for a duty belt its an excellent choice.

I think its primary virtues are:

a) Allows locked-wrist drawing to prevent aversion

b) Economical

c) There's a trainer already made for it so you can practice hard.

Michael Brown

[skyydiver]

Just picked up one of these:
http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/cd/5f/14_1_b.JPG

[okla-lawman]

We contacted the Tulsa Co District Attorneys Office for a legal opinion last year. In writing they said the Kershaw, Onion and other assisted knives did not qualify under this statute and thus were not illegal. Dirks and other double bladed knives have been traditionaly outlawed do to the fact they were designed to pierce armor ( both chain mail and Kevlar). I have got a few sucessful prosecutions for violations almost all were switch operated knives and convicted felons. I have tried several times for prosecutions under any other offensive weapons on some peeps who tried or stabbed some body with a concealed knife. But it never floated.

As far as carrying a switchblade it is illegal. Kind of like speeding though. You may get off, you may not. I personally dont carry ANY automatic knives. Why?? if you ever had to use it for self defense and I was the civil attorney suing you I would show parts of West side story and tell the juriors you were carrying a Illegal Hoodlums weapon......
A small fixed blade is quicker and far better...

[pete156]

Skydiver, I also order the same knife just the other night. The only thing I didn't see mention was whether or now either of the sheaths can be worn horizontally on the belt.

I hope so since my overhang may get in the way. ;)

[skyydiver]

Looking at the pic, I bet the clip can be attachd either way. We'll see, I hope it gets here soon. I got in a hurry when I saw it and paid 2 bucks more than the same seller's "buy now" price on the same knife different ad. Felt kind of stupid, but it was my fault. Anyway, 2 bucks, us high rollers can afford it. :)

[okgr8outdrs]

6 months after my assisted opening Buck Rush was taken, I have finally replaced it with a Spyderco Native. Please keep in mind this is a tool for me to cut tags, string, open cd's and various other utilitarian tasks which are made easier with a blade. It is not a defensive weapon. It is a little thicker than my Buck was, but has a good, non-slip frame, carries tip-up and the blade is much beefier than my Buck. I have taken some of your advice and steered clear of the assisted opening. Why push my luck if I don't have to?

Thanks for all the advice. I may consider a fixed blade once I have had some training.

[okla-lawman]

I carry a native all the time for a utility knife. I broke the tip last year and sent it back to them with $5 for shipping. They sent me a new knife eventhough it was my falt I broke the tip.

[GMThunder]

Just curious as to what kind of knife you guys carry. Anyone carry a fixed blade? and if so what kind?

[Michael Brown]

At work I carry a TDI LEO and a CRKT Polkowski/Kasper blade.

Away from work I carry the Shivworks Clinch Pick or the Shivworks Disciple or both.

I carry a folder both at work and off-duty for administrative tasks. On a side note, I lost my on-duty folder this weekend after cutting open a gunshot victim's shirt to start applying pressure to her wound.

I believe knives intended for self-defense need to be designed for thrusting first, ripping second, with slashing as a lesser concern.

Look at the true context for a self-defense knife and see if one in particular fits your needs.

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

Ok I googled Shivworks and both the knives you mentioned seemed to be of excellent quality. Do you always carry one of these in addition to your weapon?

Also... is the TDI you mentioned like this?

Clicky.... (http://cgi.ebay.com/KA-BAR-TDI-Knife-LEO-Pistol-02-1480-Grip-sheath-kabar_W0QQitemZ6598029008QQcategoryZ88916QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


I believe knives intended for self-defense need to be designed for thrusting first, ripping second, with slashing as a lesser concern.

So you'd say to stick with the "straighter" knives?

[bratch]

Spyderco Yojimbo.

[Michael Brown]

Yes, I always carry one or both of the Shivworks knives in addition to my gun and spray.

In fact when I wear a fanny pack, a rarity but I do wear one to the gym, the Clinch Pick becomes the primary weapon.

The TDI knife you listed is the same one. If you have the means, I'd suggest the Shivworks knives but the TDI Ka-Bar is a real bargain if you're short on cash. It truly is in its element on a duty belt, but its a decent choice for concealed carry as well. I'd go with the CRKT though if I needed an inexpensive fixed-blade fighter. If you travel, the TDI is legal in most places where the CRKT may not be in some jurisdictions.

In terms of "straighter", I prefer them over scimitar-type blades but the kerambit is curved and it thrusts and rips extremely well. I just don't use a kerambit to its full potential because I'm not as well trained with it.

Unless you plan to get some direct training with the kerambit, I'd stick to a straight blade.

Since double-edged knives are illegal to carry in Oklahoma, I prefer a knife with the edge in (reverse of standard) like the Shivworks knives as opposed to the traditional design of knives.

If double-edges were legal, I'd use one and I have several positioned in the house where they are legal. :wink2:

Michael Brown

[okla-lawman]

I carry a Emerson Commander as mt everyday. On duty I carry it plus a Spyderco Native as a utility and Pat Crawford fixed blade. The crawford is unique as it is a tanto style but has a belly for increased slicing. I also have a CRKT polkowsky and carry it off duty. I am on the list for a real Polkowski I ought to get it in a year or so. I have also a couple of cold steels that I really like.

[GMThunder]

Since double-edged knives are illegal to carry in Oklahoma,

I did not know this...... I thought the only illegal knives were automatics.

[Michael Brown]

Knives that are specifically named are Bowies, Dirks, and Daggers.

Bowies are known by their design and dirks and daggers both have double-edges.

Sucks, but them's the breaks.

Fortunately there are still plenty of good knives that are legal to carry.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I carry a Ka-bar TDI AND A Spyderco Endura stainless.

As soon as I can,I'm going to go the Shivworks route and get a Clinch Pick or two.

[paken-24-7]

I carry a super knife.

[YukonGlocker]

Here is mine.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f292/YukonGlocker/Bench1.jpg

[ZX351]

Interesting thread. I carry a Cold Steel Recon Tanto. I am thinking of replacing it with the same thing though it is a little big. I have carried it for at least 2 years. I am very particular about the clip being on the opposite end from the blade when opened and I have fallen in love with the locking mechanism. Unfortunately, I can't find anything that fits the bill and I have been looking for a couple of months. Any other recommendations?

[J.P.]

This is the only kind of folder i'd consider carrying for self defense:
http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2547&highlight=knife

Still,you'd be better off with a fixed blade but at least they deploy faster than a conventional folder.

[SMS]

Benchmade Auto Folder 9050SBK

[el44vaquero]

I carry a Buck Rush and a Case Trapper.

[skyydiver]

I took Michael's advice and picked up the aforementioned CRKT on ebay. Don't carry it alot yet, need a little training, but it goes with me some. For opening stuff other than guts, I carry an ols Spyderco Delica (plastic handle).

[Jerms]

guess i'm the low-rent guy here... i carry a buck 110, sharpened on a lansky crock-stick setup, it shaved all the hair off the back of my hand and is good for gutting/skinning 1 hog before sharpening again (impressive if you've ever skinned a hog, that hog hair will dull a carbon knife quicker than most anything)

[walpur6isknight]

i only own 4 knives. 2 kershaws, both are utility knifes though, and i have a couple of ka bars. one mini and one full size.

a tri fold shovel, a hatchet, and a small field saw round out my field tool collection. :thumb:

[liliysdad]

I am somewhat of a knife aficianado. However, I like to hunt for the very best low price knives I can find. I consider it a challenge. It is easy to buy a nice 200 dollar knife, not so easy to buy one for 30 bucks thats a good knife.

So far, some of the real winners I have found are as follows;

The Benchmade Red Class Pika. Very nice little knife. 440C steel is a detractor, but it holds a good edge. Paid 20 bucks for it new.

CRKT M1 Lightfoot. Excellent hard use knife. AUS-8 steel holds a good edge. Has a funky assymetrical edge grind, but its OK once you get use to it. This is my current primary carry knife. Abot 40 bucks, If I remember right.

Ka-Bar TDI Plain Edge. This knife is increible. It is designed for a last ditch gun grab defense knife, but the utility of it is amazing. Ive used it for everything from Seatbelts to oranges. Scary sharp, and imminently concealable. Its really at home on a duty belt. 22 bucks.

I am waiting for my Blade-Tech Wegner Hunter. Supposed ot be here today. Again, 440c sttel, but one of the best folding knife designs ever made, IMO. Ive been hunting for a Spyderco Wegner for a while, but they are nearly impossible to find. This one will have to do. I have heard nothing but good about it. 35 bucks.

[onearmedman]

CRKT M16®-14ZSF http://www.crkt.com/images/CARSONDSRT05.jpg

[blake711]

What is the law about a regualar citizen carring something like Ka-Bar TDI Plain Edge? Also whats the law as far as fixed blade and folder length for say Tulsa?

[J.P.]

What is the law about a regualar citizen carring something like Ka-Bar TDI Plain Edge? Also whats the law as far as fixed blade and folder length for say Tulsa?
TDI is legal and there is no length limit on folders except at the courthouse (if you are allowed to carry them there this week)

[liliysdad]

The statute prohibits Dirks, Daggers, and Bowie Knives. The TDI is none of those.

[blake711]

The statute prohibits Dirks, Daggers, and Bowie Knives. The TDI is none of those. Ok forgive my ignorance but I am still not clear with the above listings. What determines if something falls into one of the above catagories? What would this knife be considered? Its listed as leo/mil/backup http://www.sogknives.com/minpent.htm

[F16mickey]

Knives that are specifically named are Bowies, Dirks, and Daggers.

Bowies are known by their design and dirks and daggers both have double-edges.

Sucks, but them's the breaks.

Fortunately there are still plenty of good knives that are legal to carry.

Michael Brown
According to the definition that Mike gives the knife you linked to would be illegal to carry in Oklahoma.

[liliysdad]

That would be a Dirk, defined as a double edged knife.
its a no-go.

[blake711]

Ok so serrations on the backside count as doubled edged? what if its only half way like this

http://www.dantesknife.com/CR2605.jpg

Is this ok?
http://www.dantesknife.com/41T.jpg

one more for the heck of it.

http://www.dantesknife.com/VT13020.jpg

[Michael Brown]

I would avoid any sharp edge on two sides, serrated or not. By the letter of the law, those would be illegal.

Its just not worth it with the number of good (and reasonably priced) single edged knives out there i.e. the Benchmade Snody Resistor fixed blade ($100), the CRKT Polkowski/Kasper Companion ($35), or the TDI Ka-Bar ($30).

If you want something a little bigger Cold Steel's SRK, Recon Tanto, and Kobun are all great choices for under $75.

All of the aforementioned knives do not fit into any of the prohibited catagories unless you display criminal intent.

I keep a couple daggers in my home but I don't carry them for self-defense. Its just not worth the chance.

Michael Brown

[hankrearden2000]

It was always my understanding that fixed blade knives were illegal to carry concealed, and illegal to carry openly unless they were being used in a common recreational activity or being transported to or from such activity?

[Michael Brown]

It was always my understanding that fixed blade knives were illegal to carry concealed, and illegal to carry openly unless they were being used in a common recreational activity or being transported to or from such activity?

I'd suggest reading the statute on carrying concealed weapons.

Michael Brown

[hankrearden2000]

You are so helpful, thanks.

[Michael Brown]

You are so helpful, thanks.

You are quite welcome.

If I am correct in sensing the sarcasm in your response, perhaps you might consider using the search function or even simply reading the posts immediately ahead of yours, as this ground has amply covered.

If you are not satisfied with the answers found in those posts, all I can suggest to you is read the statutes on carrying weapons. That is obviously the most definitive information available.

If you use the search function, you might even find a link to it here so you don't even have to Google it yourself.

Michael Brown

[montesa]

I carry a Benchmade 943 everyday.

[Hoov]

Hey MB, had a cop come in and tell the knife guys there was a new statute that made it illegal to carry folders. WTF?! Have you heard anything about this? I usually carry a Benchmade Pika as my work knife, a Benchmade neck knife as a spare. My knife in the pen/barn is a Spyderco. I do not like the Axis lock.

[corbinlee]

At work (school financial aid office) i carry a small Beretta folder. Outside of work i carry a CRKT M-16 with OD green handle. its several years old so it does not have the cool "flipper/hand gaurd" on it.

[Michael Brown]

Hey MB, had a cop come in and tell the knife guys there was a new statute that made it illegal to carry folders. WTF?! Have you heard anything about this? I usually carry a Benchmade Pika as my work knife, a Benchmade neck knife as a spare. My knife in the pen/barn is a Spyderco. I do not like the Axis lock.

I have no idea what he is talking about and asked an A.D.A as well who also did not know anything about it.

This does not mean its not true, but I can't find anything.

To research the issue I also looked on the Oklahoma Supreme Court's website and could find nothing in title 21 that appeared new.

I did find an interesting set of opinions that affirmed an officer's right to secure/unload a lawfully transported firearm during a traffic stop.

I also found an Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling on carrying knives not specifically prohibited by the six named versions. Its worth a read but I think it supports the position that intent is required in the definition of "offensive weapons" since the individual arrested was a known violent subject currently on probation for assault and battery.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I did find an interesting set of opinions that affirmed an officer's right to secure/unload a lawfully transported firearm during a traffic stop.


The only problem I have with that is that I get EXTREMELY nervous when some Barney Fife starts pulling my loaded gun off of my person.
Otherwise I do not have a problem with it.

[Hoov]

MB, I was not there for the exchange. I asked the salesman several times and he assured me the cop was serious. That's okay. There are informed officers whose opinion and ideas I respect and there are Barneys. Just as there are good gun salesmen and, well, I need not go on.

[kgull85]

The only problem I have with that is that I get EXTREMELY nervous when some Barney Fife starts pulling my loaded gun off of my person.
Otherwise I do not have a problem with it.

Heh, especially if you use a SmartCarry. That's a bit too personal if you ask me.

Although if the female officer is cute enough :naughty: ......heck even if you don't use a SmartCarry you could tell her you are.....but then I'd have to convince her I'm not carrying a snub nose revolver. :lookaroun

[YukonGlocker]

The only problem I have with that is that I get EXTREMELY nervous when some Barney Fife starts pulling my loaded gun off of my person.
Otherwise I do not have a problem with it.

Imagine how nervous he is.

[Michael Brown]

The only problem I have with that is that I get EXTREMELY nervous when some Barney Fife starts pulling my loaded gun off of my person.
Otherwise I do not have a problem with it.

The question of whether or not its a good idea isn't really what I'm referring to.

There were several people here who believed that the clause which states that the OSDA does not specifically authorize an officer to inspect a weapon was some kind of prohibition on securing or unloading during a traffic stop that did not involve some other crime.

The Attorney General's opinion is that this particular clause is trumped by federal caselaw, specifically Terry vs. Ohio and Michigan vs. Long.

Michael Brown

[skyydiver]

Bummer. I would be all giddy about it if ALL officers had the good judgment to leave well enough alone unless their hairs are standing up. But that ain't the case in my experience. Twice.

[hankrearden2000]

I also found an Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling on carrying knives not specifically prohibited by the six named versions. Its worth a read but I think it supports the position that intent is required in the definition of "offensive weapons" since the individual arrested was a known violent subject currently on probation for assault and battery.

Michael Brown

How about a case citation so that we can find the decision ourselves?

This must be a very old, pre-statehood Territorial case since it's now the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals that's the highest state appeals court for criminal matters, not the Supreme Court.

[Michael Brown]

How about a case citation so that we can find the decision ourselves?

This must be a very old, pre-statehood Territorial case since it's now the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals that's the highest state appeals court for criminal matters, not the Supreme Court.

Go look through OSCN.

Yes, I used the incorrect, generic term Oklahoma Supreme Court as it is commonly referred to by non-lawyers like me.

I agree, looking for the case yourself would be a good idea.

Either way, hankrearen2000, I am starting to dislike your tone. If you don't like the answers here go look them up.

Definitely don't come around here and respond sarcastically and expect that anyone will offer you any assistance.

Michael Brown

[hankrearden2000]

It's obvious that there's something that you don't like. Perhaps you perceive certain questions as a threat? A challenge? I don't know. I do know that I asked a simple and civil question about a point of law that many Oklahoma LEs understand to be true including author and former LE Jerry van Cook who discusses the illegality of fixed blades in a book that he wrote ( see “Real World Self-Defense: A Guide to Staying Alive in Dangerous Times, P. 126.). Perhaps there are cases or AG Opinions that define the terms used in the statute? Legitimate questions I think, and worthy of more than a smartassed comment like "read the statute." I also noticed that another member posted a similar question about a rumor that some cop said something somewhere about a new statute making folder carry illegal. I noticed that you deigned to provide a civil response when, anyone participating in this forum is perfectly capable of going to http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/ and looking up the status of every measure that's being considered by the legislature this session or, they could simply “read the statute.” Then there was another completely civil & legitimate question about a case that you discussed but didn't cite. Perhaps you are mad that you made a mistake by crediting the Oklahoma Supreme Court rather than the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals? There's no reason to get mad about it. Remember, the highest Oklahoma appeals court prior to state hood was called the Oklahoma Supreme Court, http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v008/v008p002.html. And, its decisions are still binding unless overturned by later opinion or statute. So, as you can see, that response actually wasn't the sarcastic response that you took it to be.

What gives Michael? If I ever make a claim that a statute, AG Opinion, or case says such & such, I assure you that I will not be too lazy or arrogant to provide a way for people to verify the claims I'm making. After all, the exchange of information is one of the main reasons that people participate in forums such as this one. I assure you that I'm not here to try and dominate the forum or other members.

[sk1911]

Soooo...I carry a crappy little Gerber folder, but I sure got my eye on this sucker!

http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

[Michael Brown]

It's obvious that there's something that you don't like. Perhaps you perceive certain questions as a threat? A challenge? I don't know. I do know that I asked a simple and civil question about a point of law that many Oklahoma LEs understand to be true including author and former LE Jerry van Cook who discusses the illegality of fixed blades in a book that he wrote ( see “Real World Self-Defense: A Guide to Staying Alive in Dangerous Times, P. 126.). Perhaps there are cases or AG Opinions that define the terms used in the statute? Legitimate questions I think, and worthy of more than a smartassed comment like "read the statute." I also noticed that another member posted a similar question about a rumor that some cop said something somewhere about a new statute making folder carry illegal. I noticed that you deigned to provide a civil response when, anyone participating in this forum is perfectly capable of going to http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/ and looking up the status of every measure that's being considered by the legislature this session or, they could simply “read the statute.” Then there was another completely civil & legitimate question about a case that you discussed but didn't cite. Perhaps you are mad that you made a mistake by crediting the Oklahoma Supreme Court rather than the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals? There's no reason to get mad about it. Remember, the highest Oklahoma appeals court prior to state hood was called the Oklahoma Supreme Court, http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v008/v008p002.html. And, its decisions are still binding unless overturned by later opinion or statute. So, as you can see, that response actually wasn't the sarcastic response that you took it to be.

What gives Michael? If I ever make a claim that a statute, AG Opinion, or case says such & such, I assure you that I will not be too lazy or arrogant to provide a way for people to verify the claims I'm making. After all, the exchange of information is one of the main reasons that people participate in forums such as this one. I assure you that I'm not here to try and dominate the forum or other members.

I'm not sure why Jerry believes fixed blades to be "technically illegal" or how you came to the conclusion that "many Oklahoma LEs" believe this to be true.

I don't know any who believe it to be true.

I simply look at the statute and the context just like anyone else. Since I have arrested plenty of people for weapons violations and paticipated in the arrests/prosecutions of scores more and have never seen someone arrested for carrying anything other than the specifically prohibited versions, I speak from my perspective and experience.

That is what people here are asking for. My experience and opinion.

If they want an answer as to whether or not they will be prosecuted for a particular crime, they will have to ask the individual who does the prosecuting i.e. the City of Tulsa Attorney's Office or the Tulsa County District Attorney's office.

Since you either declined to read or ignored the previous posts, all I can advise is that you read the statute. If you don't like the opinions offered, they were worth exactly what you paid for them.

Either way I'm not going to take my own time to provide assistance to a smartass. My time is worth something to me and I do not spend it to assist those who respond the way you do. If you believe that to be lazy or arrogant, you certainly have the right to your opinion.

However YOU WILL act with courtesy and respect on this forum in sections that I moderate.

I am not seeking yours or anyone else's verification. If someone doesn't want or like my opinion, they have every right in the world to ignore it. If they seek to verify or contest my opinion, that's fine as long as they are willing to back it up. Since I didn't disagree with anyone's opinion, I didn't see any particular need to do anythign other than quote the state statute.

If someone asks me a question, I don't feel indebted to provide sources for my opinions. If they don't like my opinions, they will not ask for them. But since someone asked my opinion, I provided them with one.

Someone asked about a rumor he heard and if I could confirm it. I answered it in the best manner with the resources I had i.e. access to the state statutes and the opinion of a knowledgeable ADA. I'm not sure what other resources anyone else would be wanting. If they want other opinions or answers, they will have to come from someone else.

But since someone asked ME SPECIFICALLY a civil and respectful question, I provided what I could.

Please point out where I did not provide a civil response to that question you cite.

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

Michael,

Well..... I picked up the KBAR TDI today at the gun show but I now have a more interesting problem. To make a long story short I'm bartending in slacks and a tie. IS there anything that will conceal tucked in?

[Michael Brown]

Michael,

Well..... I picked up the KBAR TDI today at the gun show but I now have a more interesting problem. To make a long story short I'm bartending in slacks and a tie. IS there anything that will conceal tucked in?

Both Shawn Dodson at www.shawnstactical.com and Fist Holsters make IWB versions for the TDI.

The Fist website doesn't list the TDI sheath but if you call they will make you just about anything.

The ones I have from Shawn Dodson are absolutely outstanding and allow for a locked-wrist draw with no shouder articulation. They are worlds better than the standard sheath. Unfortunately mine are OWB otherwise you'd be welcome to try one out.

Michael Brown

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

Soooo...I carry a crappy little Gerber folder, but I sure got my eye on this sucker!

http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

Guro Carl Atienza (who teaches one of the most comprehensive dedicated blade systems out there) has a good take on this.

He states that he never carries anything over $100. He believes you develop undue concern for a weapon like this and don't use or carry it in the way it is designed. The Atienza and Sayoc systems of Kali are also big on using knives as projectiles, particularly in mass attacks so they seem to be against throwing an expensive custom knife.

It is a position I am in complete agreement with. I have two carry knives worth over $100 but I carry them the way they are intended and if I lose them, I probably won't replace them with another like it.

So a crappy little Gerber folder may be just fine.

The Atienzas did a boar cutting demostration in Florida a while back and used knives they bought at Wal-mart that day to demonstrate that you don't need a super custom battle blade to be effective.

In fact I think there's a lot ot be said for minimizing the cost of your equipment and spending your free time training.

Michael Brown

[Hoov]

Please note that I asked MB to comment on a subject pertaining to law enforcement. For that, I thank Mr. Brown for his response to what is unfounded speculation at this point. Thank you.

[bulbboy]

Hank -
- You are coming off very snotty, rude, and very hostile (hopefully you don't mean it to sound that way). Michael has done nothing wrong on this post and has provided some help and answers for people asking questions. He offers opinions and specifically states that those are HIS opinions and he is not an attorney. If you want confrontation and hostility please go elsewhere BUT if you want good talk feedback with people of a similiar interest (guns) than have fun and stay here. Sorry to butt in - just had to say something

[kgull85]

Hank -
- You are coming off very snotty, rude, and very hostile

+1

[mons meg]

Well, until I broke the belt clip off I was carrying an Al Mar Eagle ultralight. 4" folder with spear point. The micarta handle is very slim, and you'll almost forget it's there. Wicked sharp AUS-8 Japanese manufactured blade, too. I think they go for around $120 now, but when I got mine it was $80.

I picked it based on the "Kali" factor as it seemed to fit perfectly into the FMA style short defensive blade for pass-and-return type movements. It's *not* for opening mail, let's just put it that way.

[montesa]

I have looked up all of the knives suggested in this link and none of them are just right for me. Can any of you suggest any other fixed blade knives made to be carried horizontally on the belt? It needs to be less than 7" overall.

[Thorgrim]

I would recommend the CRKT Ryan Plan B or a Ka-Bar TDI in a OWB Kydex sheath. I took Mike Brown's CQT class...you can find out for yourself how difficult it is to draw a pocket folder when you are in a fight.

[Michael Brown]

The following are some production blades that conceal well and fulfill the defensive knife mission. This is by no means a comprehensive list but simply the ones I've seen that I like.

CRKT Ryan Plan B
CRKT Polkowski Kasper Companion
Ka-Bar TDI (any version)
Cold Steel Braveheart
Benchmade Nimravus Cub
Benchmade Snody Resistor

There are plenty of others but most people shoul be able to find a good choice from this list.

Find a blade you like and get a trainer and a good accessible sheath for it. Fortunately there is a quality sheath maker in town so you don't have to live with a poorly designed sheath that comes with the blade.

Michael Brown

[7point82]

A quick search turned up this CRKT Ryan Plan B on eBay for $9.99 +$6.95 shipping. I don't know the seller but his feedback looks pretty good. I haven't looked much but seems like a hard price to beat.

If it was a plain edge I would have already picked it up myself. :thumb:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2813-CRKT-KNIVES-RYAN-PLAN-B-KNIFE-WITH-SHEATH-NEW_W0QQitemZ160059213525QQihZ006QQcategoryZ43335Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bulbboy]

oops - I just bought it....

not bad for $16 with shipping

[7point82]

oops - I just bought it....

not bad for $16 with shipping

I thought it sounded like a heck of a deal! Good shootin'! :thumb:

[dogbear]

Who is sheath maker in Tulsa?Thanks

[Michael Brown]

Who is sheath maker in Tulsa?Thanks

He is TULSADAVE on this forum.

Michael Brown

[dogbear]

Thank you.

[7point82]

Does anyone on the board have any experience with the Shivworks Lil' Loco or similar products? MD Tactical doesn't even appear to have them in stock and I'm not sure where else I could get one anyway. I've never looked at similar items too seriously because most seem to be of the push dagger variety and are not legal for carry by that definition. Any opinions of the product or it's general aptitude would be appreciated.

[Michael Brown]

Does anyone on the board have any experience with the Shivworks Lil' Loco or similar products? MD Tactical doesn't even appear to have them in stock and I'm not sure where else I could get one anyway. I've never looked at similar items too seriously because most seem to be of the push dagger variety and are not legal for carry by that definition. Any opinions of the product or it's general aptitude would be appreciated.

The Lil Loco is a great product but its truly a specialty item like the HAK, for times that you just can't carry anything else.

I think that anyone who wears a pair of pants or jeans and a shirt (even tucked in) can carry a better defensive option.

The Lil Loco should probably be considered as part of a layered weapons carry plan not as your primary blade. Its just not big enough to do damage to anywhere but the eyes and throat (if you are very good or very fortunate).

A Clinch Pick would probably serve your needs better and conceal almost as well.

If cost is more the issue, then a TDI Kabar would probably serve you better as well.

Michael Brown

[7point82]

I should have had one more of these :coffee: before I posted! LOL.

Yes, MB, you are correct. I would not plan on employing the Lil Loco as a first or even second level of protection. It would almost always be carried in addition to a larger fixed blade (and a CHL, etc, etc).

Hey MB, on a separate subject, you earlier mentioned liking the CRKT Polkowski Kasper Companion ... do you think it's a little on the large side to comfortably conceal compared to the TDI, Snody Resistor or some of the others? Unlike you, I'm a little guy at about 5'7" and when knives start pushing 9" long IWB carry gets a little awkward for me. (Unless I'm just doing it all wrong. :D)

Thx!

[Crosstimbers Okie]

Here is a wound caused by one of those rectangular "widget" blades that are about an inch wide and 1 1/2 inches long.

It doesn't take much when the throat is the target.

[dalepres]

I was about to order a few survival knives for emergency kits and possible carry. I was stunned to read this thread and find out that I can carry a gun but not a double-edged survival knife.

As I posted elsewhere, my CCW class consisted of little more than reading verbatim from the CLEET course material - and that material didn't provide definitions for the names of banned knives. Other than the Bowie and switch-blade, I had no clue what the others were.

Banning Bowie knives or other knives seems about as sensible as banning ugly guns or guns of specific colors as is done in some states. Afterall, it is perfectly legal for me to carry a meat cleaver, right? And we all know now what can be done with one of those.

[V1K1NG0]

Hello Michael,

Just curious: What do you think of the Spyderco Bill Moran knives
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=43

Looked around to price the Polkowski Kasper Companion and looks like these have been discontinued and I ran into these ones from Spyderco. I have a large TDI and I like it ok but I just cant get used to the angle of the blade to handle.

[Michael Brown]

Hello Michael,

Just curious: What do you think of the Spyderco Bill Moran knives
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=43

Looked around to price the Polkowski Kasper Companion and looks like these have been discontinued and I ran into these ones from Spyderco. I have a large TDI and I like it ok but I just cant get used to the angle of the blade to handle.

I think the Moran knives are great as long as you use the drop point version.

An upswept design is for slashing. Thrusting is what you're looking for in a personal protection blade unless you have a huge blade like a bowie or kukri which are illegal to carry.

For any small blade, the sytem behind it needs to be point-driven rather than edge driven. For this reason, I prefer an edge in design rather than edge out but that is personal preference.

IMO, you could get just as much knife for a lot less money but if you really like the Moran design, it's just fine.

PM Tulsadave on this forum (he designs all of my sheaths) and he can hook you up with several blade designs and a great sheath as well as a trainer for whatever blade you choose.

Michael Brown

[fm2]

.... the CRKT Polkowski Kasper Companion ... do you think it's a little on the large side to comfortably conceal compared to the TDI, Snody Resistor or some of the others? Unlike you, I'm a little guy at about 5'7" and when knives start pushing 9" long IWB carry gets a little awkward for me. (Unless I'm just doing it all wrong. :D)

I'll hop in here, knives with 5 1/2" OAL offer a good combination of concealment/blade length/handle length/usability. That's what makes the TDI knife nice. That said, I have been carrying a 7 1/2" OAL knife, in it's place, and nobody has said anything or made it obvious that they noticed the bump.

The main problem is the poorly designed sheaths they come with. It is very important to get the FFG on the knife while it's in it's sheath, and most knives the sheath doen't allow that. Tulsadave is the guy to fix that issue.

[chevyboy123]

are there any regulation as to how long a knife you can carry as in over all length or blade length

[sanjuro893]

Just a quick FYI for everybody, there's no state limit on blade length, but city ordinances could differ. I just spoke with an Oklahoma City P.D. Lt. that said 4 inches is the city statute.

[cubby55]

In this section of the SDA

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

does spring-type knife include assisted opening knives such as those made by Buck and Kershaw?

Yes, and no.
I carry an automatic knife, auto opener, switch-blade, and I have gathered many opinions from law enforcement personnel on the interpretation of the statutes. In a nutshell, here's what I've learned:
If you get arrested for a crime against society......drugs, rape, murder, etc., and if you are carrying any of the weapons you listed, you will get another charge, and most judges will tack on additional time to any sentence imposed. If you are just John Q Citizen, then every Police officer I ever questioned (about this subject) could care less about the knife you are carrying.
I know that this does not answer your question, but if you want the "black and white answer", then yes, spring assisted are illegal.

[jaketinaboxer]

1) Get a good fixed blade knife that you will always carry.


Michael Brown

do you have a suggestion?

[owu1bag5]

do you have a suggestion?

i like my ka bar tdi.

[Veggie Meat]

do you have a suggestion?

I like the Ka-Bar TDI 1480. If you can punch, you can do a decent job with it. Of course, there's more to knife-fighting than that.

http://www.knivesplus.com/media/KA-1480.jpg

I carry it on my offhand side forward enough that I can access it with either hand (blade up with left hand, blade down with right hand... you can use it either way no problem).

[bulbboy]

Kabar TDI or a Ryan Pan B

[trade_sniper]

I happen to have one of those TDI's, with sheath and trainer knife that I need to sell. I just haven't taken the time to take some pics and post it.

[cabbygirl87]

Hi I am new to this forum as well as this topic. I am getting into self defense. I am a small chick and I want to be able to defend myself. I was wondering what thoughts ya'll had on a good knife for my size. I like the Kabar TDI, but I'm just not sure which would be more easily concealed. I have read the rules ya'll posted and they were so helpful. I need a easily concealable/legal knife. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. thanks!

[Michael Brown]

Hi I am new to this forum as well as this topic. I am getting into self defense. I am a small chick and I want to be able to defend myself. I was wondering what thoughts ya'll had on a good knife for my size. I like the Kabar TDI, but I'm just not sure which would be more easily concealed. I have read the rules ya'll posted and they were so helpful. I need a easily concealable/legal knife. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. thanks!

There are lots of good choices but they depend greatly on how much you want to spend, how you intend to carry it, your daily wardrobe, etc.

If you'll post a little more about what you're looking for, you can get some quality information.

Michael Brown

[DaveTec]

I've got the TDI. A very nice knife, with a very nice sheath/belt attachment system.

[Navydoc]

so much for my fancy crkt sting:(

[petersonb]

What about carrying on a college campus? Any license or anything needed? Thanks for the info

[dkinion]

Would having a large survival knife, ie Gerber LMFII, in a bag that is left in your truck be considered illegal. Thanks.