Caliber restriction per OK Self Defense Act

[Pigeon]

Have been curious for a while about the caliber restriction in the OK law. Restricted to .45 caliber. While I personally dont see any caliber above .45 as being tactically sound for use as a concealed weapon, am curious as to the legislature's reasoning behind this.

Any thoughts?

[DrBaker]

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but I was told that the caliber cannot be any larger than .45. Would .223 be acceptable for carry? That would mean AR pistols with 100rd drums were legal for carry.

Does anyone know if this accurate information?

[J.P.]

Can someone please tell me what section addresses this issue?

[kjones99]

i carried a desert eagle in 50ae once.....just once.

[Pigeon]

Can someone please tell me what section addresses this issue?

Title 21 1290.6 Prohibited Ammunition

I have it saved in pdf format, couldn't copy and paste text.

JP-
You may want to try reading backward, and upside down while under water to read the pdf you posted and stickied.:)

[J.P.]

Well,I figured since it was straight from the horse's mouth (OSBI) I should post the official version.
I didn't realize until I actually tried to read it,just how user unfriendly it really is. :)

[J.P.]

Have been curious for a while about the caliber restriction in the OK law. Restricted to .45 caliber. While I personally dont see any caliber above .45 as being tactically sound for use as a concealed weapon, am curious as to the legislature's reasoning behind this.

Any thoughts?

Legislature.
There's the answer.

[Pigeon]

Legislature.
There's the answer.

Much wisdom in your answer.

[mons meg]

And, if they said "over .40" then they'd have to deal with all the old-and-crusties coming out of the woodwork for daring to prohibit their 1911's. :P

[hubmonkey]

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but I was told that the caliber cannot be any larger than .45. Would .223 be acceptable for carry? That would mean AR pistols with 100rd drums were legal for carry.

Does anyone know if this accurate information?

.223 is defined as a Restricted round because it is capable of penetrating a bullet resistant vest. The AR pistol is too long to be considered a conceal carry weaponas well. The Desert Eagle in .44/.357 is too long according to my instructor.

Hub

[mons meg]

As used in Sections 1289.20 through 1289.22 of this title and Section 2 of this act:

1. "Restricted bullet" means a round or elongated missile with a core of less than sixty percent (60%) lead and having a fluorocarbon coating, which is designed to travel at a high velocity and is capable of penetrating body armor; and



Restricted bullet here seems to mean "teflon-coated" and not made of lead. Not to diss your instructor, but is there another section of OK law that defines restricted bullets with respect to pistols? Don't see why an AR pistol would be illegal per se, since the FN 5-7 is fine to carry.

Edit: also, according to statute, you should be ok carrying your DE .357, if you can let your pants out far enough...

[skyydiver]

If I had the cash, I'd test out that new .50 GI 1911 for a HD piece. FWIW.

[hubmonkey]

Title 21 O.S. 1290.2 (If we want to quote)

A Pistols is defined as a...

a. Any derringer, revolver or Semiautomatic firearm which:

(1) has an oneall length of LESS than 16 inches AND can be fully concealed from detection and View.


So your carbon 15 is Not Legal to carry.

Now I have to measure a Desert Eagle but it i probably close.

A .223 is "capable of penetrating body armor" Now shoot some poor sap with with your .223 and see if the DA does not chase you. You are carrying a Rifle round not a handgun round.

Not to dis anyone but I trust my instructor more than I trust some guy on the internet. Err on the side of caution.

Hub

[capmarine]

define. of pistol-designed to be able to be held and fired with one hand-21-1290.2
would one of these ar-15 pistols be less than 16"?
many years ago i carried KTW's,teflon rounds,those things could go thru engine blocks.cant carry now of course.
you all are so worried about ccw and such-dont be stupid like ive had people walk up to me and hand me switchblades,wanting to come into the sheriffs office to see a loved one-hehe.carrying certain offensive weapons will get you in a lot more trouble than some firearms.
had a little old lady come in one day and wanted to know what to do with the pistol she was given to her by her son.told her what kind of caliber it was and to take it home.

[J.P.]

On the other hand,I've had State Troopers tell me how nice my Hubertus Guardian is. ;)

[capmarine]

be thankful you live in oklahoma.some states,as you well know,will put you in jail for that non-registered firearm that you used to save your skin or someone else's.

[mons meg]

Hubmonkey, point taken on the definition of pistol, as that is most definitely pertinent towards defining the range of "carryable" weapons. But it seems if one had a theoretical pistol (as defined by law) that happened to be chambered for .223 Remington, the law is silent on your carrying it under the terms of the SDA, as the rounds are not restricted. I mean, you can buy NATO "green tip" all day long, and it has a steel penetrator. But...copper jacket and lead core.

Case in point would again be the FN Five-seveN...it's basically a .22 Hornet class round fired from what no one can argue is a pistol.

Thoughts?

[LastManStanding]

The real question is why would you wanna carry anything bigger that .45? Hell I dont know about you but I doubt there would be room for anything bigger than that in my britches.

Not to mention I can't remember the last person that was robbed, harrassed, assaulted, threatened or in any has had to use their CCW against someone in full on body armor... :screwy:

So there is really no need for armor piercing rounds in your pistol unless you plan on killing all the bystanders through the brickwall behind your target.. :wink2:

[mons meg]

Tell that to the gun shop owner in Tyler, TX. It was Tyler, right?

[hubmonkey]

I totally agree that the law has room for interpretation and does not say specific calibers but the "Capable of piercing a bullet resistant vest" is what I want to point out.

As for the FN57 that is a vest penetrator because it can split the weave of a vest and penetrate. I personally would not want to take a chance of carrying one of these rounds just to find out later ooops you were carrying a restricted round and here is your go to jail card. A jury can be swayed in any direction if you have enough money to hire the hot rod lawyers, just look at OJ.

As always err on the side of caution.

Hub

[hubmonkey]

you can buy NATO "green tip" all day long, and it has a steel penetrator. But...copper jacket and lead core.Thoughts?

That is an Armor piercing round. My My Oklahoma Self Defense Course handbook specifically says....


page 12

H. Section 1290.14 - Authorized Weapon types
2. Prohibited Ammunition (Section 1290.6)
a. Caliber larger than .45
b. Armor Piercing Bullets


Hub

[mons meg]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that virtually any centerfire cartridge designed for a rifle *can* penetrate a vest, but obviously those aren't "restricted" ammunition unless they meet the Teflon/non-lead test.

Theoretically, if I were to CCW an FN 5-7, and I had SS190 ammunition, someone could claim I had "armor-piercing" rounds and an overzealous DA could try to make something of it, but I think I'd end up getting rich. Follow my logic, but remember IANAL:

Section 1290.6 says you can't have a caliber over .45, or restricted ammo as defined by 1289.19 which again, reads as follows:

1. "Restricted bullet" means a round or elongated missile with a core of less than sixty percent (60%) lead and having a fluorocarbon coating, which is designed to travel at a high velocity and is capable of penetrating body armor


Look, I'm not trying to beat a dying horse, I'm just trying challenge the notion that you would get in trouble for packing a 5-7, or a carbon-15 pistol which otheriwse met the length requirement for a pistol.

Now, thoe only problem with my theory is the "or otherwise prohibited by law" section in 1290.6....

"Fire away" at my hypothesis...it's only through peer review that our understanding of these things will improve. :)

Now, as for the M855 "green tip" being armor-piercing, according to 1289.19 it's not illegal, since it's not primarily a steel core bullet. Anyways, the old 5.56 ball ammo (lead core, no penetrator) will still sail through a vest, just not as well through steel plate. ;) Armor-piercing has a different connotation in military use.

[hubmonkey]

it's only through peer review that our understanding of these things will improve.

I truley agree and I want to understand every aspect about it. I am no lawyer so I hope no one takes what I say as law. I am just answering a couple of exact questions I posed to my instructor.

I am sure the initial thread was just a guy joking around about the Carbon 15 with a Beta C mag because you can't conceal that rig, unless you carry a big purse, and it is too long.

My point is that if there is any question about the law and it's legal intrerpretation don't take what you or I say and base your decision on it. Seek legal council. May not be cheap as the internet but it is way more reliable.

As Larry the Cable guy said "Now we have a horse with a broke leg and a gunshot wound"...

Hub

[kjones99]

I am no lawyer so I hope no one takes what I say as law.

Hub

why am i paying you to be my legal counsel?? i knew something was wrong when you told me you worked for Dewey Cheatham and Howe.