reinventing the wheel

[okla-lawman]

Not wanting to hijack any of the previous threads about bullet weight
I thought I would view my views on bullet wight as it relates to the 9mm.
This has been a 20 plus years as a cop, student, academician and forensic scientist. Much o fthe work was done for completion of my masters degree and was going to be my disertation for my Phd, but things changed in my life as did my goals.

I started in this over 20 years ago. I was carrying .357 mag 125 gn hollowpoints. It was the cop load.
Lots of stopping power, muzzle flash and recoil.
I went to the big city to go to school and nearly everybody carried the 158
grain lead SWCHP (semi wadcutter hollowpoint) some plus p some standard velocity. I was taught by vetran officers that if you shot them once you better shoot them wit all 6. This was a sad but true commient on the lack of perforamnce. Through trainng and work I have seen many people killed with this round but seldom did the expand reliably . Agencies began searching for better anwsers. they tried the 125 grain of the .357 driven at plus p velocities with bad results. It was not fast enough to relably expand. The treasury loaded a 110 grain 38 at 1200-1300 fps range. I have shot some of them and they are hot. The bullets tend to fragment badly. recoil was harsh and penetration was some what lacking. The rounds caused problems on the weapons.
About this time the 9mm started to come into usage. The first large agency to adopt the 9mm was the Illinois State Police. There original loading was the 90 grain soft point at over 1400 fps. The round worked well but lacked penetration especially in intermediate targets. The 9mm in military form is loaded a lot hotter than the commercial stuff. ISP in conjunction with
Winchester loaded a 9mm 115 grn to 1450 fps. This is an excellent manstoppper and exhibits top performance though at the cost of increased recoil. This is still one of the top rated manstoppers. In Evan Marshall's studies he rates it at 96% one shot stops. More and more agencies started adopting the 9mm along with the +p+ loading. Some agencies, notablty the FBI chose to stay with the standard velocity loadings. The FBI went with the
winchester silvertip. A 115 grn bullet at 1150 fps making a little over 300 ft/lbs of energy.

The Miami shootout involving the two bank robbers and the FBI changed this.
The FBI had 3 agents killed in one shootout. They were looking for a fall guy..or in this case bullet. I was at Quantico right after the incident. I have spoke with three of the agents who were there. I have seen every film about it including the FBI's classified and The Miamo Fire Depts.(the best for real scene pictures) I have heard the FBI"S opiinion along with quite a few other federal LE agencies. I will quote one of the agents "we ****ed up". We were not prepared. Most of the shotguns were in cases in the backseats or trunks.
Of the 3 swat officers the only one with an mp5 was taking a bathroom break and left his radio in the car. One agent lost his gun...get the picture. When the fight began one of the bad guys was shot with a 9mm silvertip. The bullet entered his left side hitting and exiting his left lung, throught the Aeorta, the right lung and coming to rest inside of his right chest wall. The bullet expanded to 63 calibre. According to the coroner it was a nonsurvivable wound. That even if it occurred in a operating room he would of died, The bullet worked but the FBI tried to claim it did not penetrate enough. To me it did an excelent job. Maybe if was a +p and delivered another 100 ft/lbs it might of made a difference but I doubt it. (400 ft/lbs is considered to be perfect amount of energy). So they started to search for another ammo witrh more (??) penetration. The Navy Seals were using winchesters 147 subsonic 9mm silvertips. They had a an excellent reputation for accuracy. They were designed to be fired out of suppressed mp5 (thus sub sonic) comingout of the barrel at 950 fps. Many agencies jumped on this band wagon with dismal results. I have seen numerous slugs recovered from real shooting, two here in Okla. The bullets did not just expand. Like it's predicessors in .38 the 158's. In ,38 we were firing a lead hollowpoint at 950 weighing 158 grains and it did not work so why did we expect a jacketed bullet (less expansion) weighing less (less energy) to do better than are old 38??

The 9mm NATO spec ammo is a lot hotter than the comecial stuff. It loads a 124 grn at over 1400. That stuff is hot. That is probably why some manfacturers are releasing some really hot 1250+ fps rounds. I have some of the original 124 grn hydrashok +p+ which came out of my glock over 1350. Man that stuff was hot, An officer with a local dept shot a dog with it and he said it was awesome. Just like the old .357 mag. He said the dog just turned to jelly. Southwest Forensic's did research on it though and did not like how it fragmented. So federal backed it down to 1250 fps. ( I may still have some of this along with most of the other ammo mentioned....party??)

In my opinion stay away from the 147's. Learn from the old 158 grn 38s.
For a bullet to be effective it must release all of its energy into the target. Not exit. It needs to expand to create a larger permanet cavity. The 147's
I have seen tend (in gelatin) to expand later reducing the permanent cavities and to smaller diameters, if they expand at all. It does not have enough velocity to produce a temporary cavity (unlike the 115's) thus decreasing the wounding mechanism.

Stick with the 115's +p or 124 +p. Dont try to reinvent a wheel that did not work that well the first time.

[J.P.]

For a bullet to be effective it must release all of its energy into the target. Not exit. It needs to expand to create a larger permanet cavity. The 147's
I have seen tend (in gelatin) to expand later reducing the permanent cavities and to smaller diameters, if they expand at all. It does not have enough velocity to produce a temporary cavity (unlike the 115's) thus decreasing the wounding mechanism.

I simply don't think there is credible evidence to support any energy dump theory or temporary cavitation as a wounding mechanism.Not in a handgun round.
Permanent cavities of most modern JHP loads are very similar regardless of the caliber used.

I would agree that early expansion is better,as long as penetration doesn't suffer.

[J.P.]

Additionally,in the Miami shootout,did the Silvertip not traverse an arm first?
That was what I was led to believe.
If this was the cas,then I would say that it had excellent penetration.
Also if,(another bif "IF") that was the case,was it a fluke or is the same level of penetration repeatable?

IMO,the bullet weight or velocity is unimportant as long as the design is such that it will withstand barriers such as clothing,and arms, and still have adequate penetration.

[okla-lawman]

I am a graduate of the Armed Forces institute of Pathology. I was pervy to view live animal testing and pretty much any type of testing from ballistic soap to gelatin. NOTHING will repeat how a bullet will perform at that particular mediium vs.. a real shot. In the Miami shooting I consider the bullet performed so well due to hitting the lungs. The fluid medium (air) is less dense than muscle and that could account for it's great penetration.. The penetration might be miniscule if it hit a rib first.
The FBI tests were heavily flawed. They were going on Letterman Institute protocol
for penetration and most of the rounds tend to over pentrate and tend to expand later, as this is a requirement for the military. According to AFIP velocity is everything.
As you know E=MV2 so every increase in fps is squared, so it has more effect than mass.Much more modern tests such as the Strousberg (I am willing to bet this was AFIP undercover do to animal right activist) or the imigration. Both if these tests tend to the lighter, faster bullets. The Strausberg test shot alpine goats whis have a simular size thorasic cavity as well as lung capacity as humans. Energy dump?? well if all bulltets perform to there max there would be more no difference in stopping power between a .38 and a .357 magnum. Energy or velocity is the difference. I have heard the temporary cavity bs for years. I will quote the pathologists. Most handgun bullets mehtod of death is exhangunation. The more damage, even the tears from temporary stretch cause more blood loss. Hydrostatic shock starts around 1300 fps. It becomes explosive at 1969 fps. It's effect increases untill around 3800 were the wounding mechanism no longer is related blood loss but goes to CNS shutdown. Simply the 147 grain does not have enough energy nor velocity to be considered a viable manstopper. Ask some of the older BA officers about there winchester 147's. Check Evan Marshall's research about actual shootings. Wether you agree with his corealations to stopping power or not there is a lot of good information and pics of recovered bullets from actuall shootings. You can shoot what ever testing medium you want but none really replocate a human being. I have had numerous ocaasions seen recovered slugs and sit in on autopsies and worked for a couple of years in an ER and got to see all the GSW and most of the slugs.

Gelatin stimulates straight muscle tissue approximately. Well as you know the human body is 80% fluid. The liver is sponge like forgan. the lungs are air filled, the spleen so forth....get what I am getting at. There is a lot more than muscle in a human. You can use gelatin. fackler boxes or what ever but it does not mean that is how the bullet will perform un the real world. Only reviewing actual case and recovered bullets can do this
but again this requires a large data base as you mentioned about the FBI shootin would this be repeatable. Remember what the outcome of the FBI wound ballistics report. The FBI got the 10mm light. IT sucked..... For Self defense or leo I think we need less penetration than the military. They are not so responsible for what happens
if their bull overpenetrates. We are. Look at the Houston incident or more recently the NYC fiasco.

[Michael Brown]

Let me put my opinion into context prior to airing it.

1) I am NOT a scientist

2) I am a serious student of terminal ballistics but I am NO EXPERT

3) I have not shot enough people or seen enough people shot to come to any legitimate conclusion on bullet effectiveness based on personal observation. I would deem that number somewhere in the thousands with strict controls over the information and variables. That said, I've seen a lot of gunshot wounds.

That out of the way,

I don't think anyone, including Fackler, Roberts or MacPherson, has ever suggested that gelatin replicates a human body very well.

However what they do is legitimate science as opposed to survey or junk science as has been propogated in the gun rags.

I enjoy reading Marshall and Sanow but I can only take their stopping power "studies" with minimal seriousness. I believe they are VERY sincere in wanting to provide a service to the law enforcement community but terminal ballistics is a science and two good cops are not the guys to be performing legitimate science. That should be left to full-time professional SCIENTISTS not cops.

I don't know much about Ed Sanow's service in law enforcement but Evan Marshall is a hero of the first order in the law enforcement community. He is an outstanding and dedicated COP but there are definitely better SCIENTISTS out there. My wife frequently reminds me that I am a fair police officer but I suck as a painter.:wink2:

Based on my limited knowledge of this field, I also believe that sufficient penetration is the most important factor in selecting a handgun bullet.

I don't think relying on anecdotal evidence is a good way to select a round. I'll listen to it and certainly file it away just as I do any other anecdotal information, but I think choosing your bullets that way is a bad idea.

Again, just my take on things and its worth what it cost you.

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

Simply the 147 grain does not have enough energy nor velocity to be considered a viable manstopper. Ask some of the older BA officers about there winchester 147's.

Just curious..... where is the critical period to which it does become a "manstopper"?

Some 147gr Sig rounds are movin 1200fps+

You said you're a forensic scientist.... what does this entail? Are you a pathologist? Lab tech? Investigator?

[RDS]

1. Adequate penetration considering what a bullet must pass through (clothing, adipose tissue, etc) to achieve the desired effect..

2. Shot placement

3. Caliber - projectile diameter.

Shot placement becomes slightly less critical as projectile diameter increases. A .45 cal. projectile will encounter more stuff on its way through a particular medium than a 9mm projectile will...

The only way to guarantee your 9mm bullet will expand at least to .45 is to shoot a .45.

[J.P.]

Shot placement becomes slightly less critical as projectile diameter increases. A .45 cal. projectile will encounter more stuff on its way through a particular medium than a 9mm projectile will...
So slight in fact that I would argue that there isn't any appreciable difference to matter.

[J.P.]

Energy dump?? well if all bulltets perform to there max there would be more no difference in stopping power between a .38 and a .357 magnum.

I'm not convinced that there is any difference in stopping power between the two.

[RDS]

Didn't mean to denegrate the 9mm....it's what I carry.

[Michael Brown]

I'm not convinced that there is any difference in stopping power between the two.

I think with modern ammunition this is becoming more and more true. In the military context it is a lot more critical given the limitation of using non-expanding bullets.

I think the only thing larger calibers in modern designs are doing now is ensuring better intermediate barrier penetration. I think this is important enough to warrant consideration but I don't think it affects the mythical issue of "stopping power".

I would add that reliability is an issue that often gets short thrift in discussing ammo selection. I think its the number one criteria in selection and should be considerd prior to terminal ballistics.

However please see my caveats from my post above.
:wink2:

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Gelatin stimulates straight muscle tissue approximately. Well as you know the human body is 80% fluid. The liver is sponge like forgan. the lungs are air filled, the spleen so forth....get what I am getting at. There is a lot more than muscle in a human.

Also it should be mentioned that the human body is composed of bone structure.The ribs,sternum,and any arms that may be in the way.
I would rather err on the side of deeper penetration IF the lighter bullet will not breech these barriers and still provide adequate penetration.
The way I see it,you have to prepare for the worst case scenario because you are not guaranteed clean torso hits no matter how trained you are.

Now,if say a CorBon 115gr is capable of breeching an arm,both sides of the jacket sleeve,the jacket,a shirt,the sternum, and still provides adequate penetration to reach vital areas then I say "That's great"
If however,if it takes a lesser expanding,deeper penetrating round to do the same,I'll take that round every time.

Ideally we would all agree that a round that opens early,stays big and penetrates deeply enough to get the job done would be great.
Unfortunately there seems to be a tradeoff...still.

As far as I'm concerned,it's splitting hairs anyway....but still an interesting study.

Evan Marshal does interesting work but I cannot buy into any assumption that there is a quantifiable study of stopping power.

[RDS]

J.P.,

Agree totally on reliability, penetration vs. mixed media.

I'll say, as a result of a couple of shooting incidents, the particulars of which I am intimately familiar, I began carrying FMJ truncated cone (flat nose). Main concerns: reliability and penetration. Not ammo-geeky, not sexy, just comforting.

Interestingly enough, later, we shot vest panels with .40 Silvertips and .40 FMJ TC....the Silvertip's hollow point collapsed inward and looked like ball, the FMJ actually had a little expansion...the flat nose flattened out a little more. Not sure what it really means...just a little unexpected.

[J.P.]

I will quote the pathologists. Most handgun bullets mehtod of death is exhangunation. The more damage, even the tears from temporary stretch cause more blood loss. Hydrostatic shock starts around 1300 fps. It becomes explosive at 1969 fps. It's effect increases untill around 3800 were the wounding mechanism no longer is related blood loss but goes to CNS shutdown."

When you quote 1300fps are you talking about the velocity of a round of specific weight or did you (they) mean ftLbs of energy?


Another school of thought is that the temorary cavity causes tissue to stretch but not tear.In fact,some suggest that the temporary cavity actually moves tissue out of the way of the bullet's path,limiting contact.

One thing I think we *can* learn from gel and other similar tests is how big the temporary cavity is.
While I don't believe any pistol round is capable of dumping enough energy into a BG to cause any significant damage,I think we can defintely learn something from temporary cavitation.
See,when the energy is dumped,it is largely during expansion of a JHP.
Using a gel (or other) model,we can derive from the TC just how early a round starts to expand, and how long it *stays* expanded.

If a bullet expands on impact,dumps all of it's energy then mushrooms,the rest of the wound path would be relatively small compared to the path of the expanding bullet.
Conversely,if a bullet penetrates deeply but has overly delayed expansion,you run the risk of less than optimal contact.

On the other hand,if a bullet expands on impact,stays at a large relative diameter and then fully mushrooms toward the very end of it's travel,you naturally end up with greater tissue damage.
With a good bullet design,super high velocity is not needed to create reliable expansion.This was probably not the case with early loads but we are light years from most of those.

[okla-lawman]

Mike as far as Marshall/Sanow I use there studies more for recovered bullet info than stopping power estimates. Sanow is a RESERVE cop up in Indiana and Editor of Law And orders Tactical Magazine. He has designed a .25 calibre bullet for one company...but it was nothing startling. I find there work a tool much like any other. In my original post I made reference to weither you beleive there stopping power estimates or not. Marshall used to be a guest lecturer for CLEET but never got to sit in on any.
I disagree you have to be a scientist to be an expert on terminal ballistics. Have you ever been to the Remington Plant in LoneOak co. AR.? None of the bullet designers are Phd level. It takes common sense. I have been studying it for years, not as much as late. When I was going to get my Phd at Berkley I was arrainging to intern at the Letterman Inst., My advisor was trying to set up Fackler as one of advcisors. FAckler is an MD but with a lot of experience. But not a Phd in Fluid dynamics.
ENERGY does make a huge difference. If I hit you with a ball peen hammer vs a sledge hammer with the same diameter of head you are saying there would be no difference in wounding?? Have you ever seen a person shot with a magnum? There is a lot more damage. I acknowledge that bullets designs have come a long way but in your thinking
a 22 long rifle with a properly designed bullet would have as much stopping power as .223 after all they are both the same calibre. In my opinion the 147 does nothing well.
It is a solution for a problem that does not exsist. I have heard this from ammo reps, ammo designers, gun writers, Terminal ballistic experts, the INS test, what does it take to make belivers? In a paper I published years ago on research I did research on the
"effects of missle velocity on soft tissue injuries" velocity was detemined to be the biggest key to wounding potential. This does not whole true in modern designed ammo.
It is a package.

[J.P.]

If I hit you with a ball peen hammer vs a sledge hammer with the same diameter of head you are saying there would be no difference in wounding??.....
.....velocity was detemined to be the biggest key to wounding potential. This does not whole true in modern designed ammo.
It is a package.

My observations:

The hammer analogy is a bad one because blunt trauma is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

Velocity is a key to *expansion* which in turn causes more tissue destruction.
But yes,modern bullets have larger working windows.

[GMThunder]

In my opinion the 147 does nothing well.

I'd like to ask that you address my questions previously asked. Not a huge 147gr fan but I'm curious of the opinions of the pros and cons.

[okla-lawman]

GM there is now magic point where a bullet becomes a manstopper.
General guidelines are
400 ft lbs of energy and one that does not over penetrate. Generally with handguns rounds the ones that make over 500 ft. lbs if energy overpenetrate and do not expend there energy.
Whille hydrastatic shock is great in my opinion and increases wounding effectiveness it is not an absolute.(look at the 230 grn .45)
In 9mm (the magic bulltet) is one that produces 400 lbs, over 1350 in 115 or over 1250 in 125. one that will stay in an actual body. The 147 does not meet that criteria.
The only magic bullet is a projectile that is traveling in excess of 3800 fps. That is not magic it is simple a death ray. I just turns you off. Your cns can not deal with the shock and it shuts down..permanently. That is the reason the military was looking at going to that 4,5 mm hyper round. As you can imagine it has a few problems though like intermediate target deflection, wind band so forth.
While I think it is being a braggart to post a Cumila Vitae
I pocess a Master's Degree in Forensic Sciences, My Thesis was funded by the FBI and I worked in a lab for 2 years. While working on my Masters I spent 2 years at the Armed Force Institute of Pathology. In addition to all the death investigation and forensic medicene (only C in my masters, was one of those classes, it was bitch). I was in the group that did would ballistics research. The real deal live fires, some gelatin even a little soap. Wet news papers...never been attacked by one (lol) nor have I ever seen any validity for testing. I have been a Program director for a state university for 3 years.
I teach baton, asp, PR-24, handler 12, PPCT and other DT subjects. I have an advanced certificate as a police officer. I am a gradute of the Okla. Criminal Investigation Academy. I am member of quite a few Forensic professional societies/academies. As of late my interest have changes a little bit and I have got into the psychological end of it. Why peeps do stuff and dealing with them. I have received commendations in dept and from the Citizen Crime commision. In fact was runner up for their Police officer of the Year award for my work tracking downt the crazies I deal with.

Sorry it took me a couple of days I am on vacation, got the kids and have been sick.
J.p the 1300 fps was from afip research by Ragsdale. It was published in AAFS
and later in Comat handguns. His work was with the .45 but latter found that
calibre was not a veriable.

[GMThunder]

Quite a list of accomplisments, hats off to ya. Here's my thing, taking in my limited knowledge of ballistics.... How can one say a certain load works or doesn't opposed to similar loadings in the same caliber when all we do is shoot gel all day. I understand that a prediction can be made but is there more significant proof that something making "500lbs" of "energy" opposed to "400lbs" is less effective? Certainly a number of 10mm guys would literally throw a hissy fit if they read this. :)

[savedbygrace]

this has been a great thread interesting and informative thanks okla lawman

[MDT]

This is a great discussion. While not a Phd, my experience as a doc leads me to these conclusions:

Bangers are lousy shots.

The nicer you are, the more fatal the trivial wound is.


I took care of my SIXTH gunshot wound of the season last night (nothin' says "happy birthday Jesus" like shooting someone). This guy was shot with FMJ ball ammo, not appearing like a large caliber on xray. The bullet entered the left lateral thigh near the hip, exited the left thigh near his "bits and pieces" and entered his right thigh, stopping there. Now, while I know I can't determine caliber from xray, it appeared to be similar to 9mm or .380 (my guess only). This little bullet traveled through a pretty beefy dude. Pretty good penetration in my book.

The fatalities I have seen from GSW's are pretty evenly split between bigger calibers (.45, .357, etc) and the diminuative .22LR. Pretty weird. This anecdotal to say the least, but my small sample size and limited experience tells me that if you get shot and you are a dirt bag, you'll probably live, no matter what you're hit with. If you are relatively productive, you'll die from a BB wound. :screwy:

[okla-lawman]

MDT according to evan marshall Detroit homicide detective, he has seen more pepps killed with .22, .25 and than all others combined. I agree with you that in this area we see more larger calibres cause we are more of a gun culture in my opinion. I worked security, off duty for 3 years in an ER. I have seen quite a few gsw working there. Most were .380 or 38 that I remember.

The info I like to get more than any other is from the docs. I remember quite a few years ago TPD was carrying the .40 calibre 165 grn at 950 fps. An officer involved shooting happened at 46th and memorial. The subject got out and opened up on the officer. The officer returned fire stiking the subject three times in the upper abdomen. I had a chance to view the wounds, the xrays and talk to the surgeon. The bullets did not expand (even thought this was the round the FBI had adopted). The bullets looked as if they could be reloaded.
The Surgeon stated he was amazed at the lack of damage they had caused. He said basically he just had to sew him up. He said there was not tearing, fissures anything he expected to see. He said the bullets looked like new.

Think about that true story. That bullet has the same velocity as most of the
147 grn hollowpoints. It has more energy and .05 larger diameter to begin with. But I would definately classify it as a man stopper. This guy got out of the hospital in less than 5 days. After 2 days he pulled his inflate catheter out in an effort to escape.

[Michael Brown]

Relying on incidents like the shooting at 46th and Memorial are at best sketchy.

If memory serves me correctly, we had over a dozen shootings with that particular round (165 grain Gold Dot) and all the rest resulted in the bullet doing exactly what it was designed to do (i.e. cause incapacitation).

I don't disagree that this particular round was a poor choice.

I just won't rely on such a small sampling as even remotely scientific.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Interesting.
The TPD used to carry 165gr Gold Dots,is that the round that you were referring to?
Any idea what the perp was wearing? That might give some insight as to why they didn't expand. :anyone:

I'm not convinced that 400ftlbs of energy is enough to "change channels" with solid torso hits.
I guess that's my whole argument against M&S's theroies.
I just don't know how that can be accurately recorded with so many variable involved.
I use newspaper because I cannot afford gel but you can get an approximation.
If a known 12" load does 12" in the wetpack everytime,I'd say it's pretty close.
As you said though,it's not an accurate predictor of what a bullet will do on the street.As with gel,it's just a model to compare loads to one another.
All else equal,I will take the load with the larger temporary cavity.

[MDT]

Mike,
I did treat/pronounce a guy that threatened officers with a machette or knife or some kind of blade about 4 years ago. Two or three transthoracic .40 cal didn't leave much to work with! In that instance, the .40 did it's job and the officers got to see their families that night.

[J.P.]

Mas Ayoob has been visiting Glock Talk lately.
I invited him over here to share his thoughs on legal and ballistic matters.
He responded positively,so hopefully he'll weigh in on matters as well.

[okla-lawman]

yes but TPD had the load downloaded to 950 fps instead of the 1150 for the
factory load. In this case I mentioned as a comparisom to the 147. I should of went on to say that in testing medium tests were very simular. It was all Tpd or FBI or whoever requested the downloading. Just cause a bullet works well at 1150 fps does not mean it will work at 950. Jacket thickness, cavity size, even the make up or the lead can very effects greatly. It was basically the same when they tried to load the 125 grn .357 load in a .38+P just not the right bullet for that particular velocity. I try to validate test data, actuall shootings to make my opinions. JP I applaude you for trying to do testing. Corbin makes a reusable ballistic gell but have no personal experience with it. Probably the most
practical home test is the Fackler bag with the 1 gallon plastic bag. Fackler did his work in setting up the reference formulas to compare it to gellatin. I have personally thought about building one. Marking the bottom with large measurements and placing a lexan shield of top of it. I could mount my digital
video camera above it for some interesting results. Kind of like a low buck set up AFIP had. Theirs shot 15,000 frames a minute.

Mas is a great guy. A little paranoid but very knowledgeable. With his schedule I doubt he will have a lot of time. I have taken some of his classes he has taught at ASLET. I find his best are is legal survival after a shooting.
Unless he has changed, he described at dinner one night, his idea for perfect 9mm would be a 115 grain +p at 1450. That would expand to .65 plus and penetrate 10 or 11 inches.

[Michael Brown]

Mas is definitiely in the smaller bullet/higher velocity camp. He and John Farnam both seem to believe pretty strongly in Marshall and Sanow's work.

While I have taken classes from both of these fine gentlemen and learned a great deal, I think they tend to rely on anecdotal evidence in bullet selection.

I simply disagree with that.

That said, I've noticed that both carry a 45 most of the time. :wink2:

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

What level of penetration (in gel) do you guys feel is necessary?
I think the FBI minimum of 12" is fair but I don't see a need to exceed that by much.

okla-lawman,
I'm looking into the sim-test

[GMThunder]

Unless he has changed, he described at dinner one night, his idea for perfect 9mm would be a 115 grain +p at 1450.

Mas's dream..... (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=129)

Getting close....

[okla-lawman]

JP i feel that the FBI test are way to deep. How thick ae you?? I think the averge human
is 7 inches thick. if you get 12 or 114 inches what is happening. I am not nieve I understand bone, blood and clothing can reduce this. But lungs and other body parts will allow greater penetration. Like everything it is a trade off. If it underpenetrates and goe 6 inces in a 7 inch human that is still real good. If the bullet was to penetrate 14 inches the bullet is probably opening up too late, it wont create as big of permanent wound cavity and even a bigger problem after the bullet exits it becomes a to whom it may concern. There is more to shootout survival than just surviving a gunfight.

Two cases I am familiar with that fighting stopped with a very shallow wound.
The first was years ago at BAPD when the carried .357. A sbject was standing on the peorch with one officer and he pulled a knife. The rookie which was standing off the pourch drew and fired, a single round striking the suspect in the butt cheek. The subject went down instantly. The bullet did not exit eventhough that area was not even 7 inches. The round was a Scorpion Hydrashok (preFederal ). The round was a reduced recoil round. The outcome?? He has a permanent hole which you can put a tennis ball in in his buttocks.

The other one involved a hugely obest man. He went after a subject and the subject shot him. The round a .380 glasser (the early ones). The round only penetrated about
4 inches and did not strike any organ. The wound was 3" in diameter. The guy looking down seeing this huge whole went from agrressor to god please don't shoot me again.
The bullet never made it through his fat. But the psychological effect was AWESOME.
I actually have a pic of that Xray somewhere...

oh one more a TPD officer (back when they carried .357 and could choose their own
ammo) had a subject attempt to reun himself and other officers down. The subject was a wanted violent felon. As the subject attempted to run this officer down he fired a single glasser safety slug. The round penetrated the windshield nicked the steering wheel and the partially opened safety slug hit him right below the ribs. Even though the bullet(shot??) struck the subject and he went down. The shot hit his liver and spleen and cased such damage that both had to be removed. It was far from an idea
penetration but it still stopped the fight.

Check out the INS ballistic test. They are a LOT more recent and more accurate. They also cover a lot more and newer ammo.

[J.P.]

Do you have the link to the INS tests?

[okla-lawman]

Actually I had a copy. If it did not get lost in the flood of my downstairs I will try to find it.

[J.P.]

great,I'd like to read it.

[YukonGlocker]

What do you guys think of the 357sig??
1375 fps
525 ft/lbs

[J.P.]

I think it is a great but unnecessary round. ;)

[AresV]

What do you guys think of the 357sig??
1375 fps
525 ft/lbs

I really like it. It's a good round for CC IMO. Major expansion with JHP's right out of the hole with the velocity it's pushing. My father reloads it for me and he tested a 1350 FPS 125 gr. JHP (can't recall which bullets he used) and it expanded from .355 to .64x when he shot it into a large bucket of sand that was less than 3 feet from the muzzle.

However, JP's tests do show that 9mm can achieve similar results.

[GMThunder]

What do you guys think of the 357sig??
1375 fps
525 ft/lbs

Does everything a 9mm does...... only better. :)

[mons meg]

Does everything a 9mm does...... only better.

Yes, take that 9mm bullet and pack more powder behind it and magic happens! :P

My 9mm CZ holds more of those same 9mm bullets, though. ;)

[GMThunder]

Yes, take that 9mm bullet and pack more powder behind it and magic happens! :P

My 9mm CZ holds more of those same 9mm bullets, though. ;)

Worked for the .357mag didn't it? Not quite the difference between the 38 and .357 but a difference nonetheless. I'll take it, since I don't notice a difference from shooting .357sig and 9mm +P or even a signficant difference between regular 9mm or rather I can control it.

I've never been worried about capacity as I'm still a fan of .45. If I stumble upon a squad of zombies I'll just run. :wink2:

[J.P.]

The edge would favor the round with highest energy of course but i'm still not convinced it is enough of a difference to matter.
Good bullet design plays the biggest role,I believe.

I like 357SIG but it's too expensive for me to shoot.

[Michael Brown]

Shot placement is still the key to stopping power. Thus unless you are relegated to something an agency mandates, pick the caliber you can shoot the most of from the platform (i.e. gun type and model) that you prefer.

In general that's going to be 9mm or 38 Special. With modern ammunition there is minimal advantage to the 40, 357, and 45.

The minimal advantage the caliber offers you will more than be made up for by quality practice.

All of the talk of the advantages of 357 vs 38 or 9mm vs 45 are largely anecdotal and not statistically significant enough to be worth consideration.

I would not feel even remotely under-armed with a Glock 19.

It all comes out in the wash and even those who really know and do a lot of legitimate testing in this realm offer that in the standard service calibers, there isn't much difference between any of them.

Michael Brown

[YukonGlocker]

Excellent post MB. Thank you.

[J.P.]

I believe this also but it's still fun to play with bullets. ;)

Plus,I'll always be facinated with terminal ballistics.

[c10bonanza]

Shot placement is still the key to stopping power. Thus unless you are relegated to something an agency mandates, pick the caliber you can shoot the most of from the platform (i.e. gun type and model) that you prefer.

In general that's going to be 9mm or 38 Special. With modern ammunition there is minimal advantage to the 40, 357, and 45.

The minimal advantage the caliber offers you will more than be made up for by quality practice.

All of the talk of the advantages of 357 vs 38 or 9mm vs 45 are largely anecdotal and not statistically significant enough to be worth consideration.

I would not feel even remotely under-armed with a Glock 19.

It all comes out in the wash and even those who really know and do a lot of legitimate testing in this realm offer that in the standard service calibers, there isn't much difference between any of them.

Michael Brown

I'm sure it's been said before, but what caliber do you carry on and off the job? Gun model?

[GMThunder]

I believe this also but it's still fun to play with bullets. ;)

Plus,I'll always be facinated with terminal ballistics.

+1 If nobody plays/discusses ballistics then we still remain in the dark.

With modern ammunition there is minimal advantage to the 40, 357, and 45.

I dunno about this..... The data out there is far from conclusive on either side of the coin.


Anecdotal evidence is used in scientific studies all the time. It's used a precursor or as a primer of research and studies. In fact I think someone should scrutinize this "evidence" highly. I'm not saying this would offered as proof of "stopping power" by any means. I'm saying that it's a starting point to conduct research, as no particular caliber fanclub (9mm is equal to all, .40 is the equalizer, .357 speed kills, .45 bigger is better) would be able to prove their point to satisfy a learned scientific community.

[J.P.]

That's why street reports are important.
Now,I'll agree that some of those reports are flawed and often reported by folks who have very little understanding of terminal ballistics.

there seems to be two groups....
Hole punchers and hinge busters (to cop a phrase form Evan Marshal's site).

Hole punching usually works everytime.It is a matter of physics...bullet goes in and leaves a hole...bullet (hopefully) goes out and leaves another hole.
It doesn't mean that the round will stop a fight though.

Hinge busting cannot be counted on with any handgun caliber,IMO.
Yes,i believe that fights are stopped because of neural shock SOMETIMES.
But I don't think it happens enough to count on or base your ammo selection on to the exclusion of adequate penetration.
What is adequate?
Well.....I wish I knew. ;)

You hear reports all the time about 9mm failing,.40 failing AND .45 failing,even with clean torso hits.

[Michael Brown]

I carry my issued Glock 22C on and off-duty.

If I didn't have an issue gun, I'd probably carry a Glock 17 or 19.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

+1 If nobody plays/discusses ballistics then we still remain in the dark.



I dunno about this..... The data out there is far from conclusive on either side of the coin.


Anecdotal evidence is used in scientific studies all the time. It's used a precursor or as a primer of research and studies. In fact I think someone should scrutinize this "evidence" highly. I'm not saying this would offered as proof of "stopping power" by any means. I'm saying that it's a starting point to conduct research, as no particular caliber fanclub (9mm is equal to all, .40 is the equalizer, .357 speed kills, .45 bigger is better) would be able to prove their point to satisfy a learned scientific community.

Jason,

I think if I said that a Raven 25 ACP was a poor choice as a carry gun, you'd argue that it was the perfect manstopper.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Michael,
Can you share any real life stories of effectiveness/failures of particular rounds used in actual gunfights that you have witnessed?

[GMThunder]

Jason,

I think if I said that a Raven 25 ACP was a poor choice as a carry gun, you'd argue that it was the perfect manstopper.

Michael Brown

Wow. :nolike:

You've got me Mike......I single you out.... you are the ONLY person I have ever disagreed with on this forum. My differences in opinions and thoughts revolve around you. :wink2:

[J.P.]

I don't think Mike meant you were picking on him specifically.
He's well aware that you are an equal opportunity dissenter. :D

[c10bonanza]

I carry my issued Glock 22C on and off-duty.

If I didn't have an issue gun, I'd probably carry a Glock 17 or 19.

Michael Brown

Thanks :)

[kgull85]

Hole punching usually works everytime.It is a matter of physics...bullet goes in and leaves a hole...bullet (hopefully) goes out and leaves another hole.

I realize that a 2nd hole from the bullet exiting would make the perp bleed out faster, but it's also potentially bad for anyone behind them. So I thought the goal of a self-defense round was to do as much damage as possible w/o exiting the target.

[J.P.]

I realize that a 2nd hole from the bullet exiting would make the perp bleed out faster, but it's also potentially bad for anyone behind them. So I thought the goal of a self-defense round was to do as much damage as possible w/o exiting the target.

The goal is to stop the threat.period.
Threats are stopped in various ways.....
They either give up,bleed out,sustain a CNS hit,or go into shock.

[J.P.]

Further,overpenetration might be a concern in some circumstances but there is a tradeoff aparently.
If you have a bullet designed for shallow penetration with perfect COM hits,it may not penetrate deeply enough in a less than ideal shot angle,especially against really thick targets.
With the current generation of hi-tech JHPs it's really hard to find a bad round.

Lightweight fragmenting rounds will probably expand under a wider range of circumstances however i think that the same load with a bonded bullet makes more sense.

Looking at gel results,I cannot think of any rounds that would not penetrate the average torso under ideal conditions except for maybe the Glaser or Magsafe stuff.
Murphy doesn't allow for ideal conditions though. ;)

Tough barriers such as leather jackets seem to retard expansion somewhat and sometimes turn a JHP into a non-expanding FMJ-like round.
The fragmenting bullets will be more likely to expand in these circumstances but if the penetration suffers because of overexpansion.....well.... I think that would be a bad thing.

Obviously it makes sense to choose the higher energy round,all else being equal but I wouldn't base my selection on energy alone because I don't believe we know enough about what makes these things work or fail.

[Michael Brown]

Wow. :nolike:

You've got me Mike......I single you out.... you are the ONLY person I have ever disagreed with on this forum. My differences in opinions and thoughts revolve around you. :wink2:

Jason,

J.P. is correct. I believe you are, as David Chappelle put it, a "genetic dissenter".
:wink2:

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

I watch Trauma life in the ER regularly..... every few episodes is a gunshot wound. There was one episode last week, can't remember which city, that a teenager who WALKED into the ER after being shot 3 times with a .40cal. One of the rounds bounced off his sternum and entered the skin right in front of mandible, the other entered his torso, and another hit him in the arm shattering his radius I believe. Not saying anything against the round...... just thought it was interesting.

[J.P.]

Bullets can do strange things,especially FMJs.

[GMThunder]

Bullets can do strange things,especially FMJs.

Forgot to mention.... that they were FMJs. The one pulled out of the kids face was only slightly distorted.

[okla-lawman]

There are all types of fluke shootings. There used to be in the guiness book of records a guy who went to a motel room and shot himself in the head 5 tiimes (in the temple)
and laid there to die. After a couple of hours he got up and went to home and got into bed with his wife. She woke up when he started bleeding in bed. He lived with very little permanent damage. Tulsa Okla. a gang banger is put down on his knees an dshot execution style in the side of his head. He falls down and plays opossum. He shows up at the hospital er. The winchester silvertip .32 auto is sticking out if his skin. It stopped when it struck his skull. A bad headache and observation was all he got.
A gang banger wrestles with a deputy for his gun. At near point blank ranger the banger is shot on the left cheek/nasal cavity area. The .45 calibre 185 grain hyshock penetrated basically into his sinus cavity with less than 3" of penetration. The banger was released in less than 3 days from a .45 headwound. The only constant in bvullet performance is there is no constant.

The .357 sig. Yes it is much like my old beloved .357 magnum. It shares its short comings of recoil, muzzle flash and managability. I am personally not a fan of the sig version. It is expensive. I dont care for bottle necked cartridges, SInce it uses 40 brass why not use a 40 bullet. Larger diameter to begin with, not requiring as much expansion. If you port the barrel to try to make it more managable you have lost all your edge over the 9mm.

I agree and disagree with Mike. I dont think there is much difference in modern high performance ammo in 9mm (not 147's of course). 40 or 45. I do not think the.38 is any where close. There is something to be said for the psychological aspect of the larger whole in the barrell as it relates to deesculating a situation of the 40/45. Those statements are based on here. If I lived in a colder climate wher a lot more clothes are worn for longer periods of time I would deffinately go to the larger calibre.
I have never felt under gunned carrying a 9mm. Good ammo, good hits equal desired effect. In my carrer I have carried 9mm many times. Years back I was looking at a rural law enfocement job. Very little back up. I was contemplating a Caspian arms high capacity in .38 super or a glock 17 with +2 mag extensions. If we came to terms I would of gone with the Glock due to being able to carry a 26 as a back up.