Just Got Off The Phone With The OSBI

[pete156]

And some are willing to freely hand out advice when they have no clue, while others are total aholes that tell you that the SDA stands for itself and that they're not there to interpret for you if you aren't smart enough to understand it fully. Man, that really hit me wrong when he said it all sh!tty like he did.

I was calling them to clarify a few places where you can or can't carry. That was a mistake. The ahole just basically said that it's up to an officers discression whether or not a law has been broken.


My questions were:

Post Offices - I assumed that it wouldn't be legal, but was just going to clarify.

Sidewalk Around the School - I park along the curb by the school and get out and walk along the sidewalk in front to pick up my girl. The sidewalk is outside of the schoold parking lot, courtyard and playground. It also is a sidewalk that is common to the main street beside the school and connects to the other sidewalks running along the main street.

(I should probably just continue to leave in the locked car and not push my luck)

Fairgrounds - I know this has been discussed here before, but don't think there was ever a good sure answer. Which there may not be one and it's just another mystery.


The lady I got on the phone first started saying that it was against the law to carry into a business when there was a sign posted, but from everything y'all have said and also what I've read, it's only simple trespassing if you choose not to leave after being made.

I'm still pretty new to carrying and figured that they had someone up there that had answers to questions. The dude was just trying to belittle and there's no excuse for that. :madbox:

[kgull85]

The lady I got on the phone first started saying that it was against the law to carry into a business when there was a sign posted, but from everything y'all have said and also what I've read, it's only simple trespassing if you choose not to leave after being made.

It's was my understanding that if you carry in a place that is posted then it is basically the same as carrying w/o a permit.

[berettaman]

They can ask you to leave.If you do,no harm no foul.That's the extent of their reach,unless you refuse to do so.Then they can call the police and have you arrested for tresspassing.

Schools?
I read it to be ok as long as you remain in your vehicle,in the parking lot,for the expressed reason of picking-up or dropping off your child,the firearm remains concealed and you don't enter the building.

[ok_patriot]

I would stay in you car if you were on school property. You can't leave a firearm unattended on school property. You can drop off and pick up children, but thats about it.

[pete156]

The street isn't school property, so I have no quams about parking at the curb and leaving my pistol in the car. I was just wondering about the common sidewalk that surrrounds the school. If that in itself were illegal, then you mean to tell me that someone was is licensed to carry and is walking down the street that they must cross the street and take the sidewalk across from the school because it's illegal?

Surely not.

But I don't really want to push my luck and find out, so I'll just park my car at the curb and get out to meet her. :)

[J.P.]

I don't plan on getting randomly arrested while walking past a school. ;)

[pete156]

Well, of course a person's behavior always comes into play in situations. I am not someone who does or prefers to bring any attention to myself unnecessarily. I like to fly low and stay out of trouble. ;)

[J.P.]

I call B.S.!!!!
:D

[skyydiver]

I think the AG would be the only one who could truly interpret these things, not the OSBI, just becaused the SDA tasks them with the licensing. And I would be reluctant to call the AG and ask if I can get in trouble for packing at the local grade school. :) Seriously though. If an AG were to take the time to write an opinion, I would want it to be the right AG before I asked. I don't know how this one might come down. Just my rambling.

[ChrisC]

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69745

its pretty simple to me....

[skyydiver]

Yeah, we've been over all that in lengthy threads. The main points of contention are:

1. No mention of posted places either way (the property owner's rights section which you didn't cite covers it, but lists no punishment).
2. Some people have issues carrying into structures in parks or fairgrounds. Myself, I think as long as it's not an actual government office (like the Capitol bldg sits in a state park) I do not think that there's a problem with park bathrooms or fair buildings.

So yeah, not so simple when more than one person tries to interpret, but simple to pull the cite.

[ChrisC]

i can explain it just fine, the business owner has the right to post if he doesnt want conceal weapons, making it illegal for you to carry on their property...link (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=438588)


any building or property owned or rented by the government is also off limits... check A.1 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69745)

not hard to interpet plain english.....your trying to read stuff into it that isnt there....

and here is your penalty for violating the oklahoma sda linky (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69744) mainly A.2

[pete156]

Maybe I'm a little slow, but my mind gets all twisted up and sideways at all the legal talk. It would just be great if someone could put the whole thing into plain 'ol english for the rest of us who get confuzzled easily.

[berettaman]

What did Shakespear say,"First,kill all the lawyers". :gun1:

[kgull85]

any building or property owned or rented by the government is also off limits... check A.1 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69745)

That's not quite true, the last part of A.1 says "for the purpose of conducting business with the public". So if the structure, office, etc. is not used for conducting business with the public then you are fine. So a structure in a city park would be ok I would think.

[ChrisC]

is it owned or rented by the government?
do they own it for use by the public.....

the term "conducting business" doesnt me they are there to take money off of you..

I don't know a single officer that would have an issue you of you carrying your fire arm while you walk your dog, as long as your not selling crack or pimping "ladies of the night"

but a good rule of thumb, since people seem to like to split hairs, is if tax dollars pay for it, its off limits to the SDA. and any place that is prohibited you are subject to suspension for 6 months and or $50 fine.

[bulbboy]

i can explain it just fine

not hard to interpet plain english.....




wish I was that smart.. by the way, thats not english, its lawyerish.

[mikeyinokc]

i

any building or property owned or rented by the government is also off limits... check A.1 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69745)



But then doesn't B.d specifically address parks, fairgrounds, etc?

[ChrisC]

no it doesn't, it also doesnt specifically address public works offices, but its included.


now here is some food for thought...

what does "for the purpose of conducting business with the public" mean

does it mean an office such as the water department, police department, or something of that nature that requires a transaction or service to be provided directly to someone by someone?

or does it mean, for use by the public? meaning sidewalks, roadways, parks, or anything else owned by the government for public use....

B.d says "provided nothing in this subparagraph shall be construed to authorize any entry by a person in possession of a concealed handgun into any structure, building, or office space which is specifically prohibited by the provisions of subsection A of this section"

leaving the door open once again to say, its okay ask long as it doesnt fall under the "for the purpose of conducting business with the public" rule...

basicly the SDA is gutless, byt having a license will allow you to carry your firearm in a limited number of locations, some that are written in plain english and some that aren't. If you have to question "if" you can carry, you would be better off not carrying.

[skyydiver]

i can explain it just fine, the business owner has the right to post if he doesnt want conceal weapons, making it illegal for you to carry on their property...link (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=438588)


any building or property owned or rented by the government is also off limits... check A.1 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69745)

not hard to interpet plain english.....your trying to read stuff into it that isnt there....

and here is your penalty for violating the oklahoma sda linky (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeID=69744) mainly A.2

AND the penalty "linky" clearly refers to violations of 1273 and 1272, which make no mention of posted businesses. That is section 1277, per your first link. Thus the question, is it illegal on it's face, or is it trespass if you're asked to take your gun and go, and don't. Plain english IS easy, these laws aren't. That's all I'm saying. Personally, if it's posted, they don't get my $$. But, I do believe the intent of "doing business with the public" means places like the capitol, DHS buildings, OHP offices, etc...not the park pisser or the car show.

[ChrisC]

The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;

as in if it is not permitted to carry where you are carrying it is a violation....

does that help any?

if you violate any SDA law, you are in violation of 1272 per 1276...
you would not fall under the SDA if you are in a no CW zone.....

i dont know how else to explain it....


and the "for the purpose of conducting business with the public" it is left to interpetation, no clear cut answer on what that means......

[skyydiver]

Agreed, but the law specifies many"no CW" zones. Then it says that property owners need not let people carry on their property. Some argue that this just leads down the path of trespass, and does not create a "no CW zone" by virtue of a sign. I contend that a version of Texas's "30.06" clause where the signs must meet specs, then they create a "no gun zone" would clarify things, that's all. I understand your point, and am not saying it is wrong, just unclear. I am glad you are confident that it is clear to you. I don't see it as so clear.

[ChrisC]

maybe it comes from enforcing laws

[skyydiver]

That explains why it seems cut and dry to you. Working for lawyers for years has done the opposite for my law-reading confidence.

[UnSafe]

Quizzing OSBI workers over SDA laws is like poking fenced in dogs with a stick. All you're going to do is get a canned answer or provoke an incorrect or indefensible response.

If you really want to know a detail of the rules, write your DA or the State AG, and be ready to follow up persistantly until answered adequately.

I've never read of a Criminal prosecution for being "Made" in a posted (Private) building, if the CC licensed person left per directives from the employees or owner. I have read accounts of detainment, confrontation, disarming by Police, etc.. but no one actually prosecuted unless something else was going on.

Maybe I'll call the OSBI and ask the clerks...:wink2: