What do we do after?

[okgr8outdrs]

It seems the CCW class covers justifiable use of deadly force and the notification of peace officer during a traffic stop or other investigation, but I don't recall being instructed on what to do after an incident where we found it necessary to use deadly force against another person.

Logically, I know to call 911 and report the incident immediately. I would like to know from our LE friends what they would like to see when they roll up on the scene.

I am pretty sure I would have given the dispatcher my description so you know who I am when you arrive. Will the dispatcher give me instructions on securing the scene until you do?

Should I secure the BG's weapon? If it is a gun, do I clear it or just take possession of it? Should I be concerned with fingerprints? Should I reholster my firearm? If the BG is still living, does trying to administer aid represent guilt? How should I react with onlookers to keep the scene from turning into chaos? Any other information to keep in mind will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for all you do, the risks you take and the sacrifices you make.

[pete156]

One very important lesson that several of my cop buddies and one defense lawyer have told me:

DO NOT GIVE ANY STATEMENTS UNTIL YOU HAVE A LAWYER PRESENT.

There are no ifs ands or butts about that one. Its all too easy to get diarreha of the mouth after a traumatic event such as that.

[J.P.]

One thing that you *definitely* should not do is wrap the body up with chicken wire, shove it in a barrel of Quickcrete ,and drop it in the lake.
IMO,that would look bad in front of today's mostly liberal juries.
;)

[Mack45]

IMO the BG should definately NOT be still living. If I am ever driven to that point, I should never have to face the BG in court, or worry about giving aid to someone who was trying to kill me. But thats just me, I am also with Pete on giving no statements without a lawyer. I would like to hear from some police officers about what would be proper proceedure and how to act properly when they arrive on the scene. Also, would " lawyering up " send the wrong message to the officer on the scene? Michael, your thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

[Glockender]

Should I secure the BG's weapon? If it is a gun, do I clear it or just take possession of it? Should I be concerned with fingerprints? Should I reholster my firearm? If the BG is still living, does trying to administer aid represent guilt? How should I react with onlookers to keep the scene from turning into chaos? Any other information to keep in mind will be greatly appreciated.



Having just completed the course this past weekend, I can help with some of these questions as some were brought up in the class.

If it were me, I would not try to get their weapon from them as you will be the last to touch it thus your prints would be on it.

Do NOT try to administer aid as you will most likely be traumatized yourself after having shot the BG. Also, you are not trained to properly and safely administer the aid (in most cases). Wait until the EMT's get there and let them give aid as that is their job and they are properly trained.

We had an Okmulgee Police Officer sitting in on the class as he just received his Instructors Certificate and was over seeing my class and taking notes. He said that when the LE arrives, it is in your best interest to tell them that you "DO NOT WISH TO MAKE A STATEMENT AT THIS TIME." That is how the LE are trained and he advised us to do the same.

Hope this helps a little and also hope that Micheal will step in and say something as well.

[YukonGlocker]

One thing that you *definitely* should not do is wrap the body up with chicken wire, shove it in a barrel of Quickcrete ,and drop it in the lake.
IMO,that would look bad in front of today's mostly liberal juries.
;)

Hog wire works better!!:thumb:

[goodoleboy]

Warning: This is not legal adivce.

An LE spoke about this topic that applied to shootings. He stated that one should not mess with the BG weapon unless needed. He also stated one should GIVE a statement Unless you had something to hide He stated if you dont talk then the officer will be highly likely to suspect you of a wrongful act... I feel he was speaking from a LE side and not whats best for the person involved in the defensive action.

That alone seems to me to be illogical as I need representation during such a crisis. A shooting is very serious, its not a football game or casual conversation where words can be used without reprecussion... Statements after a shooting can be used against one..


I left wondering if I should follow his advice?

Warning:This is not legal advice.

[liliysdad]

As a cop, I will offer this advice. Take it for what its wortj, as Im not a lawyer. This NOT legal advice. This NOT legal advice. This is NOT legal advice.

I would not mess with the shootees gun, unless it poses an imminent threat. It is a vital part of the crime scene. I would administer aid, if I felt secure in doing so. If not, then dont. Remember, you are not shooting to kill the individual, you are shooting to stop the threat.

When the cops arrive, I would NOT make a statemtn without legal representation. You will go to jail, nine times out of ten. Sucks, but thats the way it is. Far better to go to county, and wait for an attorney, than to go to prison because of a bad statement.

[blake711]

:) I like Mustard

[liliysdad]

The problem with you thinking is that in the unfortunate event you ever face a deadly force situation, you have basically committed murder, as you have the premedtation as shwon above. Sucks, but thats the way it.

You have to remember, you DO NOT shoot to kill, wound, main, or otherwise, you shoot only to stop the imminent threat. When that threat has become neutralized, you are no longer entitled to used deadly force. Igranted, the best way to instantly neutralize a threat is by killling the perpetrator, this is the real world. That is why practice and training are such vital issues.

[berettaman]

Every situation is different.There's not going to be one definitive answer.
Granted if the cops show up and Bin Ladin is laying dead on the ground,I'm gonna say "i want a layer" is Not going to be the first words out of your mouth.

"I want a press agent" should be.

[Buzzdraw]

Protect yourself until the cops arrive, then DON'T frighten the LE into shooting you by waving a gun in their direction. Preserve the scene prior to the arrival of LE; keep curious on-lookers out/away so evidence is not compromised. Give the LE your name and address, then politely SHUT UP. It is not your function to make life easy for the investigating LE by giving a statement. Speak ONLY to your lawyer. The natural human tendency post-action is to run ones mouth and drop ones guard; don't do it! Re-read what liliysdad wrote.

[kgull85]

I think you should definately NOT have your firearm still in your hand when the police arrive.

The lawyer from the H&H class advised not to make a statement w/o a lawyer present. He said they even advise police officers involved in a shooting to wait 2-3 days before making a stement.

[blake711]

:) I like Chicken

[pete156]

:thumb:

[liliysdad]

Geeze and we were just starting to get along now you have a problem with me thinking.. notice I edited my post to say HE SAID. I ofcourse wouldn't ever do anything like that. I would say Please Mr. Crimianal stop and think about what you are doing. I realize since I am a white man its probably my fault you are in this situation as its always whitys fault for other peoples issues. So please don't attack me lets go have a latte and talk about homosexual paitings at the left wing art show downtown that is paid for with my tax dollar

My intent was not to single you out, I simply meant "you" as the general shooter in a lethal force scenario. I have heard this statemtn several times, and I find it to be terrible advice. The first time a prosecuting attorney finds out a person has stated in the past "If I ever have to shoot someone, Im gonna make sure they are dead", it has immediately become a crime with intent. It may not wash in a jury trial, but you are still out the time, money, and heartache of having to go thorugh such an ordeal.

I have absolutely no idea how you race got intertwined in this discussion, and I honestly do not care. It does not matter if you are white, black, purple, or blue, a righteous shoot either is or it isnt, not much more to say. People wonder why there are still race issues in this day and age, and then statements such as these are made. Seems to explain a lot of things.

The fact is, the use of deadly force is a terrible thing to have to do. I hope that I can retire in 23 years having never pulled the trigger. If I do have to, I sincerely hope the bad guy lives. However, my goal is to stop the threat, and killing the individual is the surest way to ensure that threat is stopped. And no, I dont care what color they are.

[blake711]

My cat is so pretty

[kgull85]

I am not even going to waste my time if that is what you gathered from my statement.

I kind of have to agree with liliysdad, your statement made me go :scratch:

It seems from your statement that you are assuming your assailant is going to be a member of a minority group.

[blake711]

He said Smacktard

[liliysdad]

I understand it was an attempt at humor, albeit a bad one. I just dont grasp how that statement had any bearing on the topic at hand, which is a very serious one, if you choose to carry a firearm.

Forgive me if I fail to see the humor in racial jokes.

[bulbboy]

Everyone lighten up! There are far far more serious problems in the world - war in Iraq, Afganistan, growing problems in Iran, China, and the Middle East, the major problem in Stillwater, genocide in the Sudan, hunger and AIDS in Africa, gay cowboy movies, etc. "Can't we all just get along?"

[J.P.]

Do these phrases sound familiar?.......

"Don't make me seperate you two!"

"I'll turn this car around right now!"
:soapbox:

[AaronT]

i have a business card of Doug Friesen (the lawyer that does the classes at H&H).
On the back of the card --- "Statement of Constitutional Rights"

if you are stopped and/or questioned by the police, you should know and be able to recite the following.

"Officer, I mean no disrespect, but I understand my rights. I have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. I have a right to refuse to consent to any search of my body and personal effects. I wish to exercise all my rights. If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights and be allowed the opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney. If I am to be taken into custody, I request a resonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so I may go about my business."

[berettaman]

Don't Poke The Bear!

[Mack45]

Liliysdad, thanks for the reminder about "stopping the threat". I understand what you are saying.

[AresV]

i have a business card of Doug Friesen (the lawyer that does the classes at H&H).
On the back of the card --- "Statement of Constitutional Rights"

if you are stopped and/or questioned by the police, you should know and be able to recite the following.

"Officer, I mean no disrespect, but I understand my rights. I have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. I have a right to refuse to consent to any search of my body and personal effects. I wish to exercise all my rights. If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights and be allowed the opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney. If I am to be taken into custody, I request a resonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so I may go about my business."


I keep that exact card on me at ALL times. I have never had to use it and I hope I never do.

[Michael Brown]

I just hope no plaintiff's attorney ever reads this thread.:nolike:

Michael Brown

[Glockender]

I just hope no plaintiff's attorney ever reads this thread.:nolike:

Michael Brown


We will all be screwed :nolike:

[CoryHawk]

I just took the class at H&H,... Doug was awesome and funny and really set you at ease and was all about the no BS.. If you asked a question you got a straight answer.

1. Stop the Threat
2. Put your weapon at your feet.
2b. (this is where I disagreed but you will get the idea) I would first check for additional threats. I don't know if the perp had a car full of buddys down the street that just saw their comrade get shot. Once I was sure I safe I would find cover and either holster or keep my weapon out but discreat and hidden.
3. Call 911.. you want to be the FIRST to report it. Call 911 and say "There has been a violent incident at *Address*. Please send the Police" (That is all he said it say.. and to hang up) Personally.. I would give them a discription of myself and make them repeat the address and discription. This way the cops coming in hot know they are looking for a caller wearing what I am wearing.

When I hear the sirens.. and yes.. there will be sirens.. I will either place my gun on the ground at this point and raise my hands HIGH in the air.

4. When the police show up.. I will state this and this alone. "Officer. I am the one who called you. My name is Cory Hawk. What would you like me to do"

5. Follow the instructions VERY carefully. When asked what happend say NOTHING. The only thing you should be saying is I would like an opportunity to arrange a call to my lawyer before answering any questions.

again.. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING.. Nothing.. Nada.. zip.. I don't care how nice the LEO is.. in this instance he is not your friend. He is doing a job and that job is to get you to talk. Shut up and Lawyer up.

[berettaman]

i have a business card of Doug Friesen (the lawyer that does the classes at H&H).
On the back of the card --- "Statement of Constitutional Rights"

if you are stopped and/or questioned by the police, you should know and be able to recite the following.

"Officer, I mean no disrespect, but I understand my rights. I have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. I have a right to refuse to consent to any search of my body and personal effects. I wish to exercise all my rights. If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights and be allowed the opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney. If I am to be taken into custody, I request a resonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so I may go about my business."

If you weren't going to jail before you whip out your little card and start reading it,you are now.
Don't Poke the Bear!

[berettaman]

Gotta admit though,that's one slick way the lawyer found to drum up business for himself.Might as well tell the officer how to tie his shoes,that his badge is on crooked and tarnished,his new uniform makes him look like a "rent a ninja" and his mother dresses him funny.
It's getting old but still
Don't Poke the Bear!

[Michael Brown]

Let me first state that I am not a lawyer and not qualified to give legal advice. I am a police officer and can only speak from the perspective of the individual charged with investigating the incident and testifying to the observations made during that investigation.

I was very hesitant to enter this discussion after some of the comments I read here which I believe are very damaging to the concept of legitimate self-defense.

However I also felt that the unreasonable commentary should be tempered with experienced opinions and another point of view.

I must say I am in complete disagreement with what most here are saying regarding the advice they have gotten from their lawyers. This sounds very much like a lawyer's attempt to make himself more important.

The fact is most lawyers (99.99% of then) do not regularly deal with cases involving INNOCENT criminal defendants. Self-defense is an affirmative defense and if you want it to work for you, it has to start from the beginning and that includes first contact with responding officers. Its very difficult to jump into an affirmative defense halfway into an investigation.

I have responded to hundreds of shootings and a lot of justifiable shootings and testified in several justifiable shootings at preliminary hearings and discussed the related issues with homicide detectives in the decision to arrest or not more times than most lawyers have been in court.

Juries will have a hard time understanding why you just shot someone and then told the guys or gals coming to help you "I ain't talkin' till I get a lawyer." That is the defense of the bad guys. Anyone remember Bernard Goetz? He would probably not be a convicted felon today if his lawyer represented innocent people on a regular basis.

My suggestion is don't get diaharria of the mouth but you should say something.

Something to the effect of "Officer, that man there tried to kill me and I shot him in self-defense. I know you have an investigation to do and I will gladly cooperate and sign any complaints against the man who tried to kill me." Then point out any witnesses to the incident. Then and only then say "Before discussing any of the details of this incident, I'd like to speak to my attorney first and will fully cooperate with your investigation then."

This places you in the position of a person who has responded in justifiable self-defense not just a guy standign there with a smoking gun and a dead guy at his feet.

A lawyer who advises you to just say nothing is giving very bad advice in my opinion.

Also anyone who makes light of a justifiable self-defense shooting on a public forum really ought to consider the above statement about verbal diharria.

Anyone who believes a dead suspect is safer to you financially and personally than a live one just hasn't considered the issues very thoroughly.

A dead man's relatives can be just as harmful physically and financially and possibly more so.

Whether a suspect lives or dies in a justifiable self-defense shooting should be a matter for the E.R. doctors not for you. Your concern should be the protection of yourself and your family. A suspect's death has little bearing on this. If your self-protection practices solve this matter don't worry about it.

One thing I will agree with is that if you do what some here are advocating (i.e. commit a criminal act) then your best advice is to say nothing. That's what criminals do.

Michael Brown

[Cowman]

The only thing I would add to the best advice given above. Is to somewhere mention that . I was in fear for my life or my families life.

[pete156]

I do agree with the fact that you should at least give the details that Mike mentioned, regardless of what I've been told. I don't think I could give the officers a hard time like that anyhow. Unfortunately, I think I'd be more like a teenage girl on a phone call and wouldn't be able to shut up after what had just happened. :(

Do any of you actually expect me to believe that you wouldn't give even the slightest detail to what happened or why until you had a lawyer present? I would at least let them know that it was in self defense so that I didn't look like a perp who just shot a stranger for no good reason.

[bulbboy]

Let me first state that I am not a lawyer and not qualified to give legal advice. I am a police officer and can only speak from the perspective of the individual charged with investigating the incident and testifying to the observations made during that investigation.

I was very hesitant to enter this discussion after some of the comments I read here which I believe are very damaging to the concept of legitimate self-defense.

However I also felt that the unreasonable commentary should be tempered with experienced opinions and another point of view.

I must say I am in complete disagreement with what most here are saying regarding the advice they have gotten from their lawyers. This sounds very much like a lawyer's attempt to make himself more important.

The fact is most lawyers (99.99% of then) do not regularly deal with cases involving INNOCENT criminal defendants. Self-defense is an affirmative defense and if you want it to work for you, it has to start from the beginning and that includes first contact with responding officers. Its very difficult to jump into an affirmative defense halfway into an investigation.

I have responded to hundreds of shootings and a lot of justifiable shootings and testified in several justifiable shootings at preliminary hearings and discussed the related issues with homicide detectives in the decision to arrest or not more times than most lawyers have been in court.

Juries will have a hard time understanding why you just shot someone and then told the guys or gals coming to help you "I ain't talkin' till I get a lawyer." That is the defense of the bad guys. Anyone remember Bernard Goetz? He would probably not be a convicted felon today if his lawyer represented innocent people on a regular basis.

My suggestion is don't get diaharria of the mouth but you should say something.

Something to the effect of "Officer, that man there tried to kill me and I shot him in self-defense. I know you have an investigation to do and I will gladly cooperate and sign any complaints against the man who tried to kill me." Then point out any witnesses to the incident. Then and only then say "Before discussing any of the details of this incident, I'd like to speak to my attorney first and will fully cooperate with your investigation then."

This places you in the position of a person who has responded in justifiable self-defense not just a guy standign there with a smoking gun and a dead guy at his feet.

A lawyer who advises you to just say nothing is giving very bad advice in my opinion.

Also anyone who makes light of a justifiable self-defense shooting on a public forum really ought to consider the above statement about verbal diharria.

Anyone who believes a dead suspect is safer to you financially and personally than a live one just hasn't considered the issues very thoroughly.

A dead man's relatives can be just as harmful physically and financially and possibly more so.

Whether a suspect lives or dies in a justifiable self-defense shooting should be a matter for the E.R. doctors not for you. Your concern should be the protection of yourself and your family. A suspect's death has little bearing on this. If your self-protection practices solve this matter don't worry about it.

One thing I will agree with is that if you do what some here are advocating (i.e. commit a criminal act) then your best advice is to say nothing. That's what criminals do.

Michael Brown

I agree with Michael. +1

[blake711]

I suggest the mods delete this post as soon as possbile so that no one can have this thread used against them.

[liliysdad]

I have nowhere near the experience that Michael, and we work in two different parts of the state. My limited experience, however, tells me something different. I still maintain that I would say nothing to the investigating officer until I have legal representation. The simple excited utterance can mean the difference between motive and self defense.

This being said, I do not advocate saying "I aint saying nothin' till my lawyer gets here". That does imply guilt, or at least some form of deceit. There is no reason an officer should mind someone in a situation such as this saying "Officer, I am very upset right now, and I do not feel that I can make a statement at this time. I would be more than happy to speak to you when my attorny arrives, and I can compose myself." There is nothing wrong witht that. Chances are, the investigating officer is gonna have a pretty good idea what happened before even speaking to the investigating officer.

However, I have, on more than one occasion, recommended an individual contact an attorney before speaking to me, as I did not feel they could adequately represent thmeselves.

The fact is, EVERY single person in this United States has the right not to testify against himself. Period. Even the dirtiest, nastiest, career criminal should feel secure in not making a statement concerning himself and his actions.

I dont work in Tulsa, and I suppose my opinions might differ if I did. Here, if we get a call concerning a shooting, the caller will tell us that they shot someone coming into their house, etc. I do not immediately suspect them of wrong doing. They are innocent until something proves them guilty to me.

[J.P.]

I would tell them the truth because I would have nothing to hide.
That seems simple enough.
:anyone:

[GMThunder]

I would tell them the truth because I would have nothing to hide.
That seems simple enough.
:anyone:

I JUST read this thread and was thinking the same thing.

[liliysdad]

I have no probelm telling what happened. None at all. I simply dont gfeel that in the heat of the moment is the best time to do so. If you are calm, and trust your ability to convey what had just happened to the police, then by all means do so. Stress does strangethings to a person, and i have seen people say very off the wall things when under the amount of stress a shooting would incur. Many people do not even remember what has happened in detail, till several hours after the critical incident.

Our legal defense attorneys have told us many times to never make a statement immediately after a shooting, and thats for an on duty police officer.

[blake711]

I think its probably a bad seal in the master cylinder. That or the left rear turn light.

[Michael Brown]

I think its important to paint yourself as the victim, even in the most general terms like I mentioned.

If you have indeed acted justifiably there is nothing that could be turned against you when you state:

1) You acted in self-defense

2) You will sign any complaint against your attacker

3) Point out witnesses

4) Maintain your 5th Amendment Right after those facts have been preserved.

Otherwise you may be viewed as a homicide suspect and not a decent citizen forced to do a terrible thing.

I would NOT state any more than that.

Michael Brown

[liliysdad]

I have no qualms witht hat whatsoever, Micheal. I think that is a very wise plan. I just know that after a critical incident, people tend to develop diarrhea of the mouth....

[Michael Brown]

I agree.

Its the reason we train tape-loop statements in training. If you don't train it, diharria of the mouth is a distinct possibility.

Michael Brown

[brennan]

Is there a good lawyer in Tulsa or anywhere in Oklahoma for this kind of situation. If this happened to me I would call a Tulsa cop buddy.

[Mack45]

Michael, thank you for your input. I always place great value on your advice.
I hope that I am never forced into that situation. If it ever does happen, I will follow your advice. One more question still remains. What should we do with respect to our weapons?

[bulbboy]

I would tell them the truth because I would have nothing to hide.
That seems simple enough.
:anyone:

Yep!!

[Michael Brown]

Michael, thank you for your input. I always place great value on your advice.
I hope that I am never forced into that situation. If it ever does happen, I will follow your advice. One more question still remains. What should we do with respect to our weapons?

If you mean what to do with them physically when officers respond, there are a few reaonable options.

1) Back in the holster

2) Under one of your feet.

3) On something (car hood, dresser) that you can access until their arrival but the suspect can't, and also allows you to quickly back away when officers arrive.

4) If you are in public and need to keep your weapon pointed at a suspect until police arrival, its a little trickier. You are going to have to keep your head, but not your arms, on a swivel to make sure you see their arrival. If they approach and you don't see them but hear them first, take the chance that its not some bad guy and just put the gun down slowly and put your hands up without turning around. You don't want to survive the assault and not survive the police response.

#3 frequently allows you the best of both worlds in this case but is not feasible if you are in a crowded area.

These are certainly not all the possible responses but are some to consider.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

3) Point out witnesses


Excuse my ignorance,but is that really a good idea?
Witnesses see what they want to see,or report what they *think* they saw sometimes.
IMO,you could possibly be doing yourself more harm than good.

[okgr8outdrs]

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate those that understood the seriousness of my question. I wasn't asking how to beat a murder rap. I never really thought about what to say or do after the police arrive, I wanted to know what to do until they get there and what they would want to see on arrival. I am sure I would be nervous, and pretty shaken up.

I don't desire to kill anyone. I value life, but I realize that I may be called upon one day to take a life in defense of my life or the lives of my loved ones against those that don't. That is a mental commitment I have made and will live with.

[kgull85]

2) You will sign any complaint against your attacker

Could you explain this a bit more. I'm not even sure what the options are.

[liliysdad]

Excuse my ignorance,but is that really a good idea?
Witnesses see what they want to see,or report what they *think* they saw sometimes.
IMO,you could possibly be doing yourself more harm than good.

If you dont point the ones out that were there, we will find them. It doesnt matter either way, thats our job. It woul dbe beneficial to speak to witnesses at the scene, instead of three or four days later.

Without witnesses, it turns itnto a "he said, she said", and there are rarley any winners in that kind of a deal. Believe it or not, witnesses tell the truth 98% of the time. If they are lying, we can tell pretty easily.

[berettaman]

What if the witnesses at the scene want to take the advice you are giving to the shooter and want a few days to think about it and want a lawyer present before answering any questions.Sounds kind of contradictory.

[Michael Brown]

Excuse my ignorance,but is that really a good idea?
Witnesses see what they want to see,or report what they *think* they saw sometimes.
IMO,you could possibly be doing yourself more harm than good.

Its very important because you don't want people with agendas who didn;t see the incident to come later claiming to have witnessed it.

Police understand that witnesses don't always see things perfectly.

In my case civilian witnesses have been my saving grace in a number of incidents. I have never had a legit witness do me any harm.

Particularly if the witness heard you say loudly "Call the police" or "stop don't come any closer to me" or "leave me alone" or " get away from me".

My opinion.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

Could you explain this a bit more. I'm not even sure what the options are.

You want to indicate to the officer that you will assist in the prosecution of your attacker if he/she survives.

It offers legitimacy to your claim that you were responding to a criminal action.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

If you dont point the ones out that were there, we will find them. It doesnt matter either way, thats our job. It woul dbe beneficial to speak to witnesses at the scene, instead of three or four days later.



I'm not too sure I agree with this.

I am guessing by some of your other posts that you work in a smaller jurisdiction.

Locating witnesses in a small town may not be a challenge but in a jurisdiction the size of Tulsa, we lose (and never locate) witnesses all the time.

It has been my experience that people want to help at the time of the incident but when you start taking them away from work or school or from their kids, they have an uncanny ability to not be found and now show disinterest.

I think its very important to get information from the witnesses right away.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Thanks for the explanation,Mike.
Sounds like good advice.

[liliysdad]

Mike, as I stated before, I do not work in a large jurisidiction, so our point of views may very well differ. I do concede that the difficulty of finding reliable witnesses is going to differ in the extreme. I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience, about two years total.

We never have had a real problem locating witnesses, with or wthout the victims assistance. I am sure it differs in larger cities, but here, people seem to feel an obligation to help.

[liliysdad]

Mike, as I stated before, I do not work in a large jurisidiction, so our point of views may very well differ. I do concede that the difficulty of finding reliable witnesses is going to differ in the extreme. I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience, about two years total.

We never have had a real problem locating witnesses, with or wthout the victims assistance. I am sure it differs in larger cities, but here, people seem to feel an obligation to help.

[Michael Brown]

Yeah that's definitely a difference.

In a smaller jurisdiction people likely know each other, probably know the victims, probably know the cops, probably know the criminals.

I think it probably inclines folks to help more.

Michael Brown

[wlcharm]

From WWW.Gunlaws.com

Post Shooting Procedures
The Cheney Incident on 2/11/06
Special note to my customers, friends and fans --

The following rules generally apply after a shooting incident (accidental or self-defense), whether you are the Vice President of the United States or not. Thanks to my friend Dr. Bruce Eimer, Ph.D., a clinical and forensic psychologist, for reminding me of these important basics, and providing facts. For some mysterious reason, little of this has come out in news reports.

1. All shooting incidents are traumatic for the good guys, especially when innocent people have been hurt.

2. Post-shooting trauma is REAL and every good person involved in a shooting incident gets it. Sleeplessness, flashbacks, disorientation, remorse, malaise and other post-trauma symptoms are routine, expected and must be dealt with.

3. You have no legal obligation to contact or talk to the press, and defense attorneys advise against doing so.

4. A person is least capable of making a coherent and consistent statement, with good word choices and chronological accuracy, immediately after a shooting incident, even though the urge to talk is typically great, and everyone around you will encourage it.

5. Knowing this, the police have adopted good standard procedures you can use as a guide. Remove yourself from all public contact, and go on "administrative leave" (with pay), until an official statement can be released in writing, in cooperation with a team of lawyers, within two weeks.

6. No statement of any kind should be made until conferring with attorneys.

7. You are advised against talking with police unless your lawyer is present.

8. The first concern must be for an injured party. Timely reporting to law enforcement authorities is also essential, and it would be improper for police to leak this to the press (both rules were observed in the Cheney incident).

9. Allow yourself time to appropriately psychologically process your post-shooting psychological trauma, and debrief this critical incident for 24 to 48 hours. Only then should you consider making a statement to the press, the authorities, or anyone. Expressing sadness, contrition and assuming FULL responsibility for the accident (as Cheney did in this case) is appropriate.

10. Do everything you can to avoid such situations.

[TSQUARE]

All this is excellent advise, and gives us all something to ponder. I personally have thought this situation over many many times, and one problem keeps surfaceing. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD ATTORNEY IN THE TULSA METRO AREA?????????????????????????????????????????????

[trade_sniper]

After reading this entire thread, I liked the idea of the lawyer having a card with notes on it. I may not agree with his message, but having a card with notes on it would be very handy, especially after a traumatic event such as what has been discussed here. You definitely will be under a tremendous amount of stress and may not be thinking clearly.

So, I read through the entire thread, plagiarized several posts and came up with a word document that could be printed out, laminated and carried in your wallet near your CCL. I'm attaching the doc file to this post and you can modify or use as necessary. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. I AM NOT A LAWYER, IN FACT I CAN BARELY SPELL THE WORD LAW. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I formatted the document to fit the size of a credit card or drivers license, once laminated (3.375" x 2.125"), just cut it around the outline provided. You may just want to print it on a regular, single sheet of paper, then cut it out and have it laminated or whatever.

Basically it says the following:

(front of card):

Post Self-Defense Procedures:
1. Ensure primary threat is neutralized. Ensure their weapon is out of reach. Inform Officer if you touched the weapon.

2. Ensure there are no other threats, then secure your weapon.

3. Call 911 and say: "There has been a violent incident at *Address*. Please send the Police. My name is *Name* and I am wearing *Clothing Description*."

4. Keep the scene secure until law enforcement arrives. Identify possible witnesses. Ask them not to leave the scene.



(back side of card):

5. When Officer arrives, tell him: “Officer, that man there tried to kill me. I feared for my life and I shot him in self-defense. I know you have an investigation to do and I will gladly cooperate and sign any complaints against the man who tried to kill me.�

6. Point out any witnesses to the incident.

7. Say: “Officer, I am very upset right now, and I do not feel that I can make a statement at this time. Before discussing any of the details of this incident, I'd like to speak to my attorney first and will fully cooperate with your investigation then, after I have composed myself.� Say nothing else until you speak to your attorney.



Anyway, I just thought that I'd like to have something like this with me in case of an unfortunate event such as this and I thought I'd share it.

I too would like to know the name of a good defense attorney in Tulsa who has experience defending self-defense cases, or at least defending ACTUAL innocent people. I would like to write his number in the margins of this card before I laminate it. There just wasn't enough room for another line on the card and still allow the printer to print within its margins or I would have added a line for this.

Now, will having this card in my possession present any problems? Surely not some type of premeditation? I carry a gun 'just in case', same for having the card. Just want to make sure I'm not putting myself in a worse situation. What are your thoughts Mike?

[mudpup]

If still alive,
A good idea, But... I think you might want to remove those three words.

[trade_sniper]

Good catch. I edited the post, edited the word doc, deleted the previous attachment and uploaded the new version.

[trade_sniper]

Although I didn't want to make it sound like they would automatically be dead, just neutralized, that is the point, not to kill, just to stop the threat.

[Michael Brown]

Eliminate the do not use hands part from number 1 and definitely eliminate the hang up part from number 3.

If you hang up you are not able to provide updated information to the same person you just talked to and may not even be able to get through.

This is critical information to responding officers who treat situations involving self-defense very differently that "shootings" with no other information.

It will probably not change anything in terms of prosecution but it can have dramatic effects on short-term survival (i.e. surviving the police response).

Michael Brown

[trade_sniper]

I understand the part about hanging up. Why remove the 'do not use hands' portion? I wouldn't want my fingerprints on the BGs weapon. I just want some clarification, then I will make the modifications and upload again. Thanks Mike.

[Michael Brown]

I will not get into investigative specifics online but using your hands to dislodge a suspect's weapon is not a problem for investigating officers.

Just make sure they know.

Michael Brown

[F16mickey]

Could you not delete 1&2. It seems that if these have not been done you shouldn't be reading it from a card. These Items should be automatic especially item 2 as this is something you could practice every time you draw/reholster. It would add the room you needed to print the lawyer's name and telephone number.

[mudpup]

These Items should be automatic especially item 2 as this is something you could practice every time you draw/reholster. It would add the room you needed to print the lawyer's name and telephone number.
Knowing what you need to do. Planning for the worst that can happen is what carrying a weapon is all about.

Perhaps we should:
1.) What gun to carry.
2.) What ammo to load the gun with.
3.) What Attorney to call when the worst happens.

We all spend time with 1&2 but 3 may be just as important.

Training should be an on going process that starts before 1 and never ends.

[trade_sniper]

I agree, #1 and #2 *should* be things that are automatic, but in the throes of life and death, with an adrenaline charged body and brain, not to mention if you are wounded and possibly leaking, who can say that it will be automatic until you've experienced it. You may be on the phone to 911 before realizing (perhaps from reading the card while on the phone) that you haven't really looked to see if there are any other BG's to contend with. But at least you'd do it instead of forgetting altogether, same with ensuring thier weapon is out of reach. Plus, not everyone has received proper training outside of the range (but they definitely SHOULD), so their training stops when the trigger quits moving. Until they have gotten the proper training, that little card might be handy.

We all want to believe that we'll handle a situation such as this with calm and coolness, just as we've trained, but we are human, we make mistakes under no-stress, let alone extreme circumstances. I just want to try and cover all my bases, including little 'extras' for the extreme cases/situations.

The steps are there if you need them, we hope that we don't, just like any defensive tool. If you don't need the card at all, thats even better, don't download it or just leave it in your wallet, but for those that might, or don't know for sure, there it is. I was just trying to help. I took the time to make one for myself and thought I'd share it in case someone else might benefit from it also.

[trade_sniper]

I updated the post and uploaded the revised version. If its something that might be helpful to you, enjoy.

[tacmedic]

Doesn't the NRA have a legal department? Perhaps they might have some useful information regarding attorneys and actions to take in such situations.

If so then maybe pay your NRA dues should be on the card. Ha Ha

I also make it a rule that if I am out carrying concealed I am also carrying my cell phone. As mentioned earlier I want to be the one who calls 911 first. If the situation allowed I might even call them first. For example...we are inside store X which is being robbed by a man in jeans and grey sweatshirt with a pistol, we have retreated to the back or the store and I am armed should we have to defend ourselves. The robber is coming our direction BANG BANG BANG. The robber pointed his pistol towards me, I had to shoot him to protect my family. Please tell the officers where we are and please send an ambulance.

I'd leave out any celebratory yelling or any take that you @#$%&* comments. Then for fun I'd listen to CNN to see how they edit the tape to make me look like a crazed gun toting maniac.

[mudpup]

We all want to believe that we'll handle a situation such as this with calm and coolness, just as we've trained, but we are human, we make mistakes under no-stress, let alone extreme circumstances. I just want to try and cover all my bases, including little 'extras' for the extreme cases/situations.
I think your little card idea is a good step in the right direction. Dealing with the decision, do I need, or not need, such a card is a step towards being ready for ...we are inside store X which is being robbed by a man in jeans and grey sweatshirt with a pistol, we have retreated to the back or the store and I am armed should we have to defend ourselves. The robber is coming our direction BANG BANG BANG. The robber pointed his pistol towards me, I had to shoot him to protect my family. Please tell the officers where we are and please send an ambulance. I don't remember where I read it, But they said that you need to work this stuff thru in your head and some of the decisions made before hand.... am going to call 911, stand and wait..... am I going to come out shooting, then 911.... am I going out the fire exit and just hide?
I'll most likly soil my paints,http://www.okshooters.com/forums/images/smilies/faint.gif then dial 911..

[tacmedic]

Excellent points Mudpup.

1. It is very beneficial to think through potential scenarios before a real one happens. Like your own private war games in your mind. You could even turn some of them into scenarios practiced in training.

2. Strap on the gun, mags, cell phone, and Depends. :spitlaugh

[trade_sniper]

I think your little card idea is a good step in the right direction.

Aww c'mon, did ya have to call it 'little'? Makes me feel like less of a man. :rolleyes2

[AaronT]

from ar15.com forum... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=10&t=31513

Question, after shooting badguy, should you stay or leave.

"ETA: Just to expand on what AJ-IN-JAX said, LEOs aren’t specifically given time to compose themselves. Rather, immediately after being involved in a shooting, they go to the Emergency Room for 'emotional stress' or 'chest pain.' It would behoove you to follow their lead if need be. If you're being pressured for a statement, and for whatever reason your lawyer is not present/can't be reached, IMMEDIATELY indicate to them that you are in need of medical attention, be it chest pain, shortness of breath, hyperventilation, etc, and get transported to the ER. Any smart LEO would immediately stop interviewing you as any potentially incriminating statements you make can be attributed to being said under duress and/or under physical or mental hardship."

would this be a good idea/tactic to delay questioning here in oklahoma??

[J.P.]

This thread might help.....
http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2915&highlight=statements

[YukonGlocker]

You don't have to delay questioning b/c you don't have to answer questions until your lawyer is present. Search previous posts/threads on this subject and you will find good advise on what to say to the responding officers.

[YukonGlocker]

Well J.P. beat me to it, I was looking for that thread.
Thanks J.P.

[berettaman]

I don't get the paranoia of the "cops are out to get me" part of a self defense shooting.Fine go ahead and let the "gobblin" rob and kill you or your loved ones so you don't have to worry about that pesky lawyer needing to be present.Anyone who needs 72 hours of medical observation or 2 weeks to "consult" with a lawyer after protecting themselves probably shouldn't have been carrying a gun in the first place.We know our rights,we better know the law and we chose to carry a weapon for just such occasions.I'm behooved??????????????????? It's always like people think they've done something wrong by defending themselves.Lets thank society for trying to make "not being a victim" a crime.Jiminy christmas,if people are that parnoid then don't carry a gun,stay home alone all the time with your 36 cats. (get down Mr Bumbles i'm trying to type) :woot:

[JamesBell]

All that said, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to follow this advice. Whether we like or not, a self defense shooting is just the start of your problems, not the end. You do have the right to not answer any questions without your lawyer, but it is hard for me to believe that a police officer can watch someone demand to lawyer up, and not wonder what they are trying to hide. But, it is also easy for me to see why the stress of taking another life could lead you to need medical attention. One would hope that your lawyer would be available after your treatment is completed, and you wouldn't be left demanding a lawyer before they talk to you, because he/she will be there and will be demanding to be with you before any questions are asked.

[Michael Brown]

All that said, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to follow this advice.

Because this hospital thing is really just a red herring by those who don't really know better.

If you have legitimate need for medical attention after a shooting, then go to the hospital.

Otherwise, follow the sound advice in the previous thread and ignore the ridiculous suggestions in the other thread.

If you absolutely don't want to answer questions or provide a synopsis of your defense of your life and there are circumstances that don't appear in your favor, going to the hospital won't keep you from being arrested or detained.

Trying to find loopholes in self-defense shooting proceedings is a bad road to go down and quickly becomes a slippery slope.

Give a brief synopsis without extreme detail as advised in the previous thread and request an attorney before further formal questioning.

It IS that simple.

Michael Brown

[JamesBell]

What you say makes sense. But, I still don't agree. Hospital or no, I would want a lawyer with me before I even thought about opening my mouth. Every person on the scene could agree with your decision, but one idiot DA and it doesn't matter. If it comes to that, I don't want to have said anything that could be viewed the wrong way by a jury of 12 sheeple.

[Michael Brown]

·¬Kj?amesBell]What you say makes sense. But, I still don't agree. Hospital or no, I would want a lawyer with me before I even thought about opening my mouth. Every person on the scene could agree with your decision, but one idiot DA and it doesn't matter. If it comes to that, I don't want to have said anything that could be viewed the wrong way by a jury of 12 sheeple.[/QUOTE]

100% agreed. One D.A. can make things extremely difficult.

The problem is, there really isn't a lot a lawyer can do to help you out of the questions the police really need to have answered quickly. Not answering those could affect the D.A.'s opinion much more than anything you could offer in the suggested statement.

The statements in the other thread are very general, non-committal, and easily modified if necessary.

Further than that, go ahead and get your attorney if you so choose.

Either way, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

Michael Brown

[JamesBell]

The more I read and think about this, you may be correct. But, my mind keeps going back to one idea. The shooter will be stressed, especially if the bad guy is dead. I don't care who a person is, taking another's life at close range will have an impact unless they've been in the same situation before. Now, while not thinking clearly, and dealing with the emotions that come with taking a life, the police officers begin to ask questions that they have to ask. I see an opportunity for an exchange like the one below to take place:

LE: So, the bad guy approached you, pulled out a weapon, and demanded money, is that correct?
Shooter: Yes, that is what happened.
LE: What happened then?
Shooter: I gave the man my wallet and hoped he would go away. However, he then got more aggressive and wanted more. I didn't have anything else to give him, and I didn't know what to do. He kept persisting, so I drew my weapon and shot him.
LE: How many times did you shoot him? (Knowing that he, like many others, kept pulling the trigger until the gun stopped going bang)
Shooter: I really don't know. I remember pulling the trigger, I think I shot two or three times.
LE: What made you decide to shoot? Were you fearful for your life? Did you not see any possible way to escape?
Shooter: I don't know, maybe I could have run away or something. I was scared, and I just wanted him to stop.

In the scenario I just laid out, there are a couple of things that could get the shooter in trouble, yet nothing he said was wrong. I would much rather have an attorney there to help me in that situation. But, as we all know if they want to prosecute, they will, regardless. I just don't want to give them any more ammunition than they already have.

[YukonGlocker]

Did you even read the thead that was put up for you.

I will quote MB here:
"Officer, that man there tried to kill me and I shot him in self-defense. I know you have an investigation to do and I will gladly cooperate and sign any complaints against the man who tried to kill me." Then point out any witnesses to the incident. Then and only then say "Before discussing any of the details of this incident, I'd like to speak to my attorney first and will fully cooperate with your investigation then."

[Michael Brown]

The more I read and think about this, you may be correct. But, my mind keeps going back to one idea. The shooter will be stressed, especially if the bad guy is dead. I don't care who a person is, taking another's life at close range will have an impact unless they've been in the same situation before. Now, while not thinking clearly, and dealing with the emotions that come with taking a life, the police officers begin to ask questions that they have to ask. I see an opportunity for an exchange like the one below to take place:

LE: So, the bad guy approached you, pulled out a weapon, and demanded money, is that correct?
Shooter: Yes, that is what happened.
LE: What happened then?
Shooter: I gave the man my wallet and hoped he would go away. However, he then got more aggressive and wanted more. I didn't have anything else to give him, and I didn't know what to do. He kept persisting, so I drew my weapon and shot him.
LE: How many times did you shoot him? (Knowing that he, like many others, kept pulling the trigger until the gun stopped going bang)
Shooter: I really don't know. I remember pulling the trigger, I think I shot two or three times.
LE: What made you decide to shoot? Were you fearful for your life? Did you not see any possible way to escape?
Shooter: I don't know, maybe I could have run away or something. I was scared, and I just wanted him to stop.

In the scenario I just laid out, there are a couple of things that could get the shooter in trouble, yet nothing he said was wrong. I would much rather have an attorney there to help me in that situation. But, as we all know if they want to prosecute, they will, regardless. I just don't want to give them any more ammunition than they already have.

The dialogue you posted is exactly what I am cautioning against i.e. verbal diharria.

Use the much simpler statement listed in the other thread and then wait for your attorney and expert witness before speaking any further.

It may indeed be an accurate dialogue depending on who shows up to investigate but if you say less than what I've suggested, don't be suprised if you get arrested. If you say more, its your're own fault because you've been informed of an intelligent way out while still easily displaying that you are the victim and not the suspect.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

One thing that I probably should add is that if you avoid arrest initially, you are almost in the clear.

If you get arrested, it may take a jury to acquit you.

Typically if the police don't make a probable cause arrest if the shooter is contacted, there probably won't be any arrest forthcoming. It's not impossible; Just not likely.

If a police officer arrests you and the D.A. decides to prosecute, its just sort of expected unless there were some serious problems, extenuating circumstances, or errors. These are not terribly common despite what the media may have you believe.

If you are not arrested, then its a lot of work for a D.A. to get a conviction. They will always have to answer "Why didn't the police make an arrest?" and that is very hard to convince 12 people of.

I still say, from experience, your best bet is to make sure the initial investigators realize that you are the victim.

Michael Brown

[JamesBell]

YG and MB. You all are right, and I clearly am not doing a good job of showing my concern, so I suppose I should just stop. What MB suggested one say is exactly what I would hope I, and anyone else, would say. But, under the stress of the situation, I fear that many would open their mouth, and then not be able to stop. Being arrested isn't my concern, being charged is. If I have to spend some time in a jail cell, that is OK. Spening years in a prison isn't.

Maybe its just me. But I think that in that situation, if I talked I would say too much. Maybe it is the fact that I trust LEO's too much and may not be thinking about the consequences at that particular moment.

[NikatKimber]

ok, I will admit, I am NOT a LEO. But if I look at it from their shoes:
you get a call from a person stating they were involved in a self defense shooting, and need police/medical. They will wait at the scene for police. the Police arive, and the caller is still there, and admits to shooting the wounded person. In my mind, that person has no fear of police, in other words, is probably innocent of crime. He has already painted a friendly face to me. Just a thought.

[Glock 'em down]

If and when your friggin' lawyer shows up, the first thing he will do is interrupt your conversation with the LEO and make a statement to the LEO kinda like "my client has nothing more to say to you officer" because let's face it - lawyers that get called out to a crime scene without any background on what has just happened naturally assume the person that requested them there are being accused of a crime...which in a sense YOU ARE! BUT...like MB said, make the short and simple statement that you were in fear of your life and you shot the attacker. DO NOT say "I shot AND killed him/her" because you are not a doctor (unless you ARE a doctor) and you are not qualified to make that call. Hell, me and MB as LEOs are not qualified to make that call...that's why we have to call the M.E. to the scene! Ever heard the old saying "Just the facts?" Answer the LEO's question...do not add to and do not take away.

LEO: "Did you shoot this man?"
YOU: "Yes Officer, I did."
LEO: "Was it self defense?"
YOU: "Yes officer, it was?"
LEO: "Tell me what happened."
YOU: "This man assaulted me and asked for my wallet. I reached behind me to where my wallet AND my Glock 19 (and yes, tell him what you shot the BG with-this helps!) drew my weapon and fired striking the man"

That's what's wrong with this world...NOBODY trusts the police anymore! I'm not out to get anybody and I don't have any axe to grind with anyone...I'm just doing my job!

Like MB said IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE! Don't do the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" game. JUST THE FACTS!

[RDS]

The original post refers to police officers going to the hospital after a shooting, correct?

Police officers using this delay/post incident tactic are probably trying to get a jump on a compelled statement "Catch-22'd" on them by their department's internal policies enforced by the Garrity ruling....(kind of an internal affairs Miranda warning only you don't have the right to remain silent, at least not without consequences..)

The compelled statement is okay(?) because there is not supposed to be any CRIMINAL prosecution as a result of the info provided in the Garrity compelled statement. Civil consequences? Uh....yeah, can be.

So, civilian context, Michael Brown's advice is sound.

[JamesBell]

Glock 'em down, I hope you weren't saying that I don't trust LEO's, because that isn't the case. My mom is a retired LEO, I grew up in the police station-- I trust the police officer's fully. It is the DA and the pressure they face that I don't trust. Well, and my ability to keep my mouth shut when it needs to be shut. If I was stressed and a police officer was asking me questions, I would see that person as a "friend" and not be thinking too much. So, if I started talking, I don't know that I would stop then I needed to.

[Glock 'em down]

No, i wasn't thinking that. I know EXACTLY what you are saying. You forgot...I deal with DA's almost on a daily basis...I know what kind of horses asses they can be! They are still just a lawyer!

[tacmedic]

Let me offer some advice on this from a different perspective. There are quite a few liberal anti gun nuts in medicine and nursing...yes sad but true I'm afraid. I have seen supposed medical professions do some really crappy and unethical things when it comes to being a witness regarding what patients say and or do while in the ER depending upon there own personal biases. And some just love to give statements or be witnesses. So if you do use this tactic it could really bite you in the @$$, be even more careful what you say and do in front of them. You don't want them testifying that you were unremorseful, not distressed, had no acute medical condition, or were high five'n your buddies and yelling F#$K'n-A I wasted that scumbag. Not in a situation like the one discussed here but I've seen more than one patient burned because Nancy Nurse or Dr. Lib couldn't wait to flap their trap. You also don't want to risk a physician documenting that he found nothing wrong with you during you ER visit either. If you need to seek medical care PLEASE BE SURE YOU DO, just be a victim, gun supporters will tell you your a hero, the libs will like you cause they love the whole victim mentality thing.

[elshadow001]

I had a sherrif tell me a long time ago, if you ever shoot someone and the authorities question you simply tell them " I don't even remember pulling the trigger I was so scared"

He said never forget that.

[tacmedic]

Not sure that's such a good idea...if you don't even remeber pulling the trigger you could open the door for them to question your recollection of anything surrounding the events including your reason for being afraid and pulling a gun. Could open the door to criminal negligence.

I would want to appear simply as someone who took only the necessary action to stop an immenent threat.

Seems to me the best thing is to do what Mike has been saying all along. State simply that you were afraid for you life and you did what you had to to stop the immediate threat. Answer direct questions simply and without embellishment or explaination.

[AgentJBOND]

in my SDA class, an attorney taught part of the course. he went through a bunch of hoopla about how nobody should say more to the police than something like "i would like to cooperate, first i must speak to my attorney, please". he insisted that, immediately following the incident, nobody ever seems to know how many shots they fired or exactly what happened (not even the LEOs that he has represented over the years). talking at the scene almost certainly leads to conflicting statements or confusion at the very least.

if you try to talk just enough to prevent arrest... you might be arrested anyway. then you're in big trouble since that statement was made without a clear mind and an attorney (and whatever you said just got you arrested!). if you say nothing, allow yourself to be arrested, and answer questions carefully with your attorney present, the D.A. will have nothing to use against you. also, such an arrest does not put your CCL in jeopardy


here's my question for the LEOs... will a simple "i feared for my life when that man tried to kill me, and i shot him in self defense" prevent an arrest (assuming the evidence suggests that is true)? how could the Stand Your Ground Law change this when it goes into effect?

[Glock 'em down]

That would work for me IF and it's a BIG IF, there wasn't any evidence at the crime scene that would show anything different than what looks like and APPEARS to be a self-defense shooting. HOWEVER you should be prepared to go "downtown" and sit thru a series of questions by the police. Answer them honestly and fully BUT do not add to like "well, yeah I shot him, but I guess I should have just ran away or something" Remember when Mike Brown started talking about diarrhea of the mouth?

LEO: Did you shot that man?
You: Yes, Officer. I shot that man.
LEO: Did you intend to kill him?
You: I was in fear of my life and I was trying to stop the attack.

There shouldn't be too many questions asked after that except for the "story" about what happened to cause you to shoot him. UNLESS the crime scene kinda looks funny to the officer investigating. And I know this really sounds cold and sadistic, but if you have made the decision to shoot another person, by all means KILL HIM! I know, I know...I'm gonna catch hell over that statement...BUT...here's the bottom line - DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES!!! A dead man can not testify against you! If this scumbag has the balls to try to assault and rob you don't ya think he's got enough balls to lie in court and say that you assaulted him? Think about it! Oh...and by the way...there is a whole series of events that happen after a shooting as well. I've never been involved in a shooting, but a very dear friend of mine has...he told me about what he went through...you can't eat, you can't sleep, you have trash all over your yard every morning, graffiti all over your house, slashed tires on your car, you go from 2 or 3 messages on your phone everyday to 30 or 40 - most of them either hang-ups or verbal threats to you and your family. Because no matter what kind of scumbag you put down - he's got buddies and he's got family too that are gonna stick to him like glue when he gets popped! Think about that!

[Michael Brown]

in my SDA class, an attorney taught part of the course. he went through a bunch of hoopla about how nobody should say more to the police than something like "i would like to cooperate, first i must speak to my attorney, please". he insisted that, immediately following the incident, nobody ever seems to know how many shots they fired or exactly what happened (not even the LEOs that he has represented over the years). talking at the scene almost certainly leads to conflicting statements or confusion at the very least.

if you try to talk just enough to prevent arrest... you might be arrested anyway. then you're in big trouble since that statement was made without a clear mind and an attorney (and whatever you said just got you arrested!). if you say nothing, allow yourself to be arrested, and answer questions carefully with your attorney present, the D.A. will have nothing to use against you. also, such an arrest does not put your CCL in jeopardy


here's my question for the LEOs... will a simple "i feared for my life when that man tried to kill me, and i shot him in self defense" prevent an arrest (assuming the evidence suggests that is true)? how could the Stand Your Ground Law change this when it goes into effect?

Please read the links attached to this thread and this particular thread thoroughly as this ground has been amply covered.

After that, take the advice or disregard it, and take your chances.

Michael Brown

[Glock 'em down]

And the reason attorneys want you to shut up and not talk to the police is because that means big money for them! Friggin' lawyers make their living off of people's misery and confusion. If they can't "represent" you then they don't work! Did ya ever see a lawyer that wasn't dressed like he just stepped of the pages of GQ? Have you ever seen a lawyer driving a 1984 Dodge or Chevy? Have you ever met a lawyer that didn't brag about his "Masters Degree in this" and "Bachelors Degree in that" LAWYERS THRIVE ON MISERY! Majority of lawyers (probably 95%) take cases for the money...they know the "defendant" is usually guilty but they "try" to get him off. WHY? Because of the Benjamins! Now before you all start asking me "what about this" and "what about that" There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes a guy IS innocent and a good lawyer will get him off. I PERSONALLY haven't ever seen this happen. I know, I know...it happens on TV all of the time...BUT...C'MON...this is the same TV with a big purple talking dinosaur on it too! There is no love lost between me and lawyers. And while we are at it...here's a lawyer joke for ya!

When a lawyer dies, do you know why they bury them 10 feet under instead of 6 feet under?

Because DEEP DOWN they are really good people! :thumb:

[Glock 'em down]

Where in the hell have you been Mike Brown...THEY'RE KILLING ME HERE!!! HELP!!!

[mons meg]

One thing that I probably should add is that if you avoid arrest initially, you are almost in the clear.

If you get arrested, it may take a jury to acquit you.

MB, isn't this going to tip more in the citizen's favor after Nov. 1st of this year with Stand Your Ground going into effect? Or is the arrest provision in the new law largely window dressing?

[Michael Brown]

MB, isn't this going to tip more in the citizen's favor after Nov. 1st of this year with Stand Your Ground going into effect? Or is the arrest provision in the new law largely window dressing?

Caveat: I am neither a judge nor a lawyer nor a legislator. Nor will I ever be on any jury that will try anybody criminally.

My belief is that this provision will be window dressing.

It is already the opinion of the Attorney General as well as the Tulsa County ADA's that I have spoken to about it, that it is already trumped by the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Terry vs. Ohio.

I wouldn't count on it to be my savior in a self-defense shooting.

My rationale is this: Currently if the police believe you acted in self-defense, you will likely be detained only long enough to confirm this.

If they do not believe you acted in self-defense but have instead committed a crime, you will be detained and/or arrested.

The law doesn't change a thing if the police believe you committed a crime, regardless of whether or not you believe you acted in self-defense.

So really, criminally, what has this law done?

I think the situation is already plenty good in favor of the armed citizen, criminally, in Oklahoma.

Where the statute is useful is in civil court. I think that was an absolutely outstanding addition to Oklahoma law.:thumb:

Currently, even if the police and D.A. believe you are 100% on the side of the angels, you can still be dragged into civil court. This law will end that at the motion for summary judgement and will substantially cut down any legal bills that you incur in defending your life.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

One last thing about attorneys and the advice it sounds like is prominent in these SDA classes.

Tulsa has approximately 60 criminal homicides per year. With the thousands of lawyers in the area, the vast majority have never even handled a homicide case. Those that have are not arguing that their client did what is being alleged but it was legal. They are arguing that their guy didn't do it. That's not the argument in self-defense.

Tulsa probably only has a dozen or less justifiable homicides per year. Few of those even reach the point of anyone needing a lawyer.

This means that the chances of encountering a lawyer that has any experience dealing with a justifiable homicide are so low that they are statictically insignificant.

This is probably why the explanations given at these SDA classes sound like they came right out of a first year law student's textbook. Chances are, that's EXACTLY where they came from.

I simply don't trust that minimal level of experience.

Ironically, I had this conversation with a former municipal judge, ADA, and current private attorney that I bumped into at dinner last night. This is a guy who was in court all the time not just when he was forced to be.

He felt it would be ludicrous to just exclaim the classic bad guy defense of "I'm not talking until I get my lawyer."

As I said before, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

Michael Brown

[AgentJBOND]

Doug Friesen (http://www.dougfriesen.com/website/Biography%201-Doug.htm) is the lawyer that told my SDA class to keep your mouth shut and wait for your lawyer to arrive. He made it sound like he has had quite a bit of experience in the matter (representive LEOs as well as regular folks). Ever heard of this guy?

[tacmedic]

I think Mike makes a great point about experience. So called professionals like laywers and doctors have a very hard time admitting they don't know something. Think of it like this...if you need brain surgery do you want a colon-rectal surgeon doing it? If you find you need a laywer you better be asking them how many justified homicides they've handled. Then subtract 2 from the number they give you to get the truth.

Another legal curiosity I have...anyone hear of this ever happening? Scumbag breaks into your house and attacks you, you have to shoot him to stop him so his family sues you. Has anyone ever, or could you even file a counter lawsuit suing them for all your legal and or medical bills and emotional trauma because they didn't do a better job raising junior? Or because they knew he was a violent criminal and did nothing about it? Or because they didn't turn him in for old warrents instead of hiding him?

Another point I noticed. You will experience some emotional distress afterwards, its human nature, such as second guessing, remorse, depression, etc. this should never be verbalized in such a way as to be confused with an admission of wrong doing. Remember you were forced to make a split second decision based on what you knew at the time. Get the proper training LIKE MIKE's CQT CLASS OR TDSA's CLASSES and trust yourself. I could have never imagined all that would go through my mind in that split second before engaging and during force on force training. Time seemed to slow, tunnel vision ensued, and half a dozen questions went through my head before I could even clear leather. The benefits of experiencing this in training are unimaginable.

[Glock 'em down]

Oh Gawd! I don't know why I do this to myself...I guess I'm just a glutton, but...anyway...here goes! Say you as an SDA licensed member stand about 6'5" and weigh about 300 pounds and you get assaulted by a guy that's 5'8" and weighs in at around 160 pounds soaking wet...can you smoke him with your gun? Or will a court of law kinda look down at you for that? I mean...being that you (if you are this size) are almost TWICE AS BIG AS HIM (or her, for that matter) do you think that maybe you can resolve this altercation some other way? How do you think this would make you look in a court of law?

[tacmedic]

There are so many variables. Personally size is a non issue. It all depends on their actions. TAKE MIKE's CLASS what they teach about the context of a criminal assault and how to articulate why you did what you did alone is worth it.

I mean if a guy eye-F#$@S you you can't just draw and drill him. But if you take Mike's class you will be able to clearly articulate what triggered your actions what their response was and why you JUSTIFIABLY esculated to deadly forces. Won't say more because if you wanna learn Mike deserves and earns every penny he charges. Its one of the best investments you could EVER make.

I will tell you that my level of alertness and aggressiveness in responding depend upon many conditions. Such as whether or not I am alone or with my wife and or kids. If they are in harms way I'm going nuclear!!!:gun2: :gun1::nutkick: :pokeowned

[Glock 'em down]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've said it before, I'll say it again... "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6!" Good luck! :thumb:

[Hugh]

Great quote, GLOCK 'em!

[Glock 'em down]

It's one I live by. It and "Don't believe everything you hear and only half of what you see" That's the one I'm always telling my teenage daughter.

[stepper]

This is a good thread. I just found it. Interesting stuff.

What is the best thing to do with your gun after using it on a burglar? Unload it, and set it down somewhere in sight or what?

[NikatKimber]

http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2915&highlight=statements
once again, for those who just found this thread, read the above linked thread. Much good advice and many ideas are there about what to say/not to say. what to do/not to do. with yourself, and with your gun. Good read.

Brent

[1shott]

Oh Gawd! I don't know why I do this to myself...I guess I'm just a glutton, but...anyway...here goes! Say you as an SDA licensed member stand about 6'5" and weigh about 300 pounds and you get assaulted by a guy that's 5'8" and weighs in at around 160 pounds soaking wet...can you smoke him with your gun? Or will a court of law kinda look down at you for that? I mean...being that you (if you are this size) are almost TWICE AS BIG AS HIM (or her, for that matter) do you think that maybe you can resolve this altercation some other way? How do you think this would make you look in a court of law?


You just described me, the 6ft 300lbs guy, SDA holder. now what?

[Kimber]

If you weren't going to jail before you whip out your little card and start reading it,you are now.
Don't Poke the Bear!

Exercising your rights is reason to go to jail? So be it! I guess it time to tell em to leave the light on!:laugh6:

[ostater]

Excellent thread! It is 8 pages now and I had to get through it all before responding.

There was an (I think) justified SD in Tulsa a few months ago that was the result of road rage and ended up somewhere on Riverside Drive. I say I think because I am in OKC and we only had 2 days of reporting in the "Daily Jokelahoman".

I don't know if it is public information or not but, it would be interesting to hear what happened at that scene concerning everything discussed in this thread. By everything I mean: What was said, what were the range of emotions, what was the aftermath?

[Buzzdraw]

Excellent thread! It is 8 pages now and I had to get through it all before responding.

There was an (I think) justified SD in Tulsa a few months ago that was the result of road rage and ended up somewhere on Riverside Drive. I say I think because I am in OKC and we only had 2 days of reporting in the "Daily Jokelahoman".

I don't know if it is public information or not but, it would be interesting to hear what happened at that scene concerning everything discussed in this thread. By everything I mean: What was said, what were the range of emotions, what was the aftermath?

A few weeks back the Tulsa Co. DA charged the individual pulling the trigger with manslaugther. Issue still hasn't had its day in a court of law. Case law may get made, or not.

The Daily Oklahoman is a vastly superior and certainly less leftward leaning news rag compared to Tulsa's World.

[ostater]

Thanks for the feedback Buzzdraw.

I was also told there was a thread back then. I'll try to find it.

I am obviously pretty far right and agree with you 100% about the Tulsa paper. But with a username like "Ostater" you can understand I have a little disdain for their sportswriters.

[jmtgsx]

I am obviously pretty far right and agree with you 100% about the Tulsa paper. But with a username like "Ostater" you can understand I have a little disdain for their sportswriters.


"Its GARBAGE!"

:thanku:

[aUSMCb]

this is a really good thread! quite a wealth of knowledge shared here...but of course, in the end, all seems to be circumstantial depending upon the specifics of your situation and need to defend yourself...

a good friend of mine is a Police Chief in OK...He's both my SDA instructor, a certified Glock Gunsmith and live fire scenario weapons instructor (myself and his fellow officers in his area attend live fire scenarios a few times a year)..

With respect to responses referring to stopping the threat and not the heart, he summed up this very important point simply and clearly:

So you protect yourself or your family and the DA agrees and any would be charges against you are dropped...instead of a double tap or accurate shot to vital organs (or empty three clips cause i'm freakin out), and the threat survives, nothing stops him or his family from rolling his ass into a civil hearing in a wheel chair, IV equipment, heart monitor ect..anything the families civil attorney can dream up to show the hard life this bad man now has to live...at that point, you have just put your financial life and your families life in the hands of a jury...

If you have a legitimate reason to fire your weapon, and as it was repeated over an over again, a reason that a normal, everyday person would agree with your choice to fire your weapon, regardless if the criminal is dead or alive, you are justified....the same can't be said if his crippled ass is wheeled into a civil courtroom...

so at the end of the day, you may have defeated the threat, but the bad guy gets to laugh his ass to the bank...

Either shoot to kill, or carry a rasp!

[dalepres]

"Officer, I mean no disrespect, but I understand my rights. I have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. I have a right to refuse to consent to any search of my body and personal effects. I wish to exercise all my rights. If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights and be allowed the opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney. If I am to be taken into custody, I request a resonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so I may go about my business."

That cracked me up. I am not a LEO but I bet most LEOs, if you read that card to them, would tell you to shut your mouth and go sit on that curb until they're ready to talk to you. Which, of course, you will do. Then he can keep you from going about your business for as long as the investigation of the scene takes before he finally gets around to interviewing you and deciding that you're under arrest. Again, I'm not a LEO; I'm just guessing here.

What I'd really like to hear is how those who have had to use lethal force for defense of themselves or others have behaved when the police showed up. Have they refused to give statements without a lawyer? Have they given statements freely? What is the percentage of arrest/conviction related to those (or other) options? When we see a person on trial for defending themselves, is that a case where the shooter copped an attitude right off the bat? When we see the shooter go home to his family and no charges are ever brought, is that a case where the shooter cooperated? Or was it exactly the opposite? Or is there no relationship at all? Certainly there have been enough incidents where such statistics could be determined.

Dale

[JamesBell]

Either I haven't read this thread or it has been a long time. I just have to throw this out there though:
I have a right to refuse to consent to any search of my body

Terry v Ohio (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=392&invol=1) seems to be pretty clear. The above quote is incorrect.

[Michael Brown]

Either I haven't read this thread or it has been a long time. I just have to throw this out there though:


Terry v Ohio (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=392&invol=1) seems to be pretty clear. The above quote is incorrect.

You can refuse to consent. You always have that right.

However when Terry applies, you may not resist a pat-down, although you can reserve your right not to consent.

Terry applies to pat-downs of the exterior clothing, not searches which are reserved for arrests, warrants, or consent (implied or otherwise).

Michael Brown

[Nanotech9]

my understanding of a terry pat is the officer isn't supposed to maneuver the items inside your pocked from the outside... but simply pat them. Even if this is correct, i doubt anybody actually follows it.

[Michael Brown]

my understanding of a terry pat is the officer isn't supposed to maneuver the items inside your pocked from the outside... but simply pat them. Even if this is correct, i doubt anybody actually follows it.

Essentially this is correct, however like most legal concepts, it's not a hard and fast rule.

Generally what you are referring to applies if the offcer suspects that what he feels is contraband, not weapons.

If the officer perceives that what he feels is a weapon, then he may manipulate it or even reach in and remove it to confirm suspicion.

If what he feels is contraband, he may not manipulate it, but may remove it if his training and experience tells him/her instantly that the item is known contraband.

It gets even murkier when the item may or may not be known contraband but is instantly known as an item that regularly conceals contraband (i.e. a film canister).

The issue in court generally comes down to documentable training and experience.

For instance, a brand new officer will not be held in the same regard as a ten year veteran with hundreds of arrests and possibly thousands of searches under his/her belt.

It is definitely not a black and white issue.

Michael Brown

[JamesBell]

MB, you are totally correct. I read the comment that you have the right to "refuse to consent to any search of my body" as possibly leading one into a situation where they were saying an officer couldn't pat you down if they thought it was necessary. As you know, that isn't the case. While it isn't a full search, trying to tell a LEO that he can't do something that he feels is necessary for his safety can't end well.

[dalepres]

I wonder if this has anything to do with the zealousness with which prosecutors pursue charges if an arrest is made in a SD shooting - assuming that statements made earlier in this thread to that effect are accurate:

H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.


Dale

[Michael Brown]

After teaching at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference this year, I was given a membership in this organization.

It will likely be of interest to folks here:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

Michael Brown

[Airmanslice]

Well, I've been arrested, for something that I didn't do. But I still refused to say anything until I got a lawyer. All the cops thought I was guilty as all hell but I didn't care. I knew that if I would have stated talking they would have started asking a lot of confusing questions really fast and I would have gotten even more nervous than I already was and said something stupid. I grew up in a family of cops and detectives and they all like to call the person their interrogating a liar no matter what story they get. I knew that was going to happen so I didn't give a statement. The arresting officer told me what was reported and I said "what?" I cooperated and he even let me empty out my pockets for him, and then patted me down anyway. He appreciated the cooperation but nothing beyond that.

I guess in a shooting scenario, it would be best just too state basic facts, offer your assistance and then shut up. Of course it differs if there's whitenesses or not but I'm not going to get into that. I think that explaining that you're shaken up and need some time (and a lawyer) before you start explaining things would help too. But I really don't know. A lot of you guys have some really good ideas too.

[Iwant1]

Protect yourself until the cops arrive, then DON'T frighten the LE into shooting you by waving a gun in their direction. Preserve the scene prior to the arrival of LE; keep curious on-lookers out/away so evidence is not compromised. Give the LE your name and address, then politely SHUT UP. It is not your function to make life easy for the investigating LE by giving a statement. Speak ONLY to your lawyer. The natural human tendency post-action is to run ones mouth and drop ones guard; don't do it! Re-read what liliysdad wrote.




I keep hearing not to speak until your lawyer is present. I don't have a friggin lawyer! How do I all of sudden get a lawyer and have him present before the cops!?

[dalepres]

That's easy. Refuse to cooperate with the investigating officer and then you can get one appointed to you the next court day when you get in front of the judge.

[Iwant1]

do i stay in Jail in the meantime?

[gillman7]

Yup or bond out, I think.

[bmxr4life87]

NOT LEGAL ADVICE

i know this thread is old but first off if your going to shoot you better do just as leo are trained to do : Shoot to kill otherwise your assailaint might get you when your not paying attention
example
im asleep in bed when i wake up to breaking glass and see an armed person in my living room, first they are in MY house second they ARE ARMED therefore i have 2 reasons to defend myself (no matter what their intentions are) so i have shot them until they are no longer threatening/standing/breathing whatever it takes first thing im going to do it kick their pistol/knife/shank/whatever away from their reach then call the police tell them where u live what just happened and where you and the suspect currently are (e.g. im in a white shirt and brown shorts and the suspect has been shot multiple times he is unconcious in my living room floor wearing a black hoodie and black jeans) you will probably stay on the phone till police arrive what i would do is place my gun in the open unloaded with the remaining ammo next to it. When the police get there they will verify who you are, who the criminal is (they will probably know them on a first name basis) and what happened. I see nothing wrong with telling them "I was asleep when i woke up and saw Joe Scumbag in my living room with a gun so i shot him in fear for my/my familys life" They most likely wont want you to write an official statement then anyways.

I dont know about the rest of the state/country/world but around here the police arent going to assume you did anything wrong because its YOUR house YOUR life YOU were protecting them they do have protocol to follow like ask questions verify its your house verify you have no warrants/felonies/etc. they will probably take your weapon with them for 90 days for processing but after that i do believe you go to the police department and they release it to you!

[penman53]

Let me first state that I am not a lawyer and not qualified to give legal advice. I am a police officer and can only speak from the perspective of the individual charged with investigating the incident and testifying to the observations made during that investigation.

I was very hesitant to enter this discussion after some of the comments I read here which I believe are very damaging to the concept of legitimate self-defense.

However I also felt that the unreasonable commentary should be tempered with experienced opinions and another point of view.

I must say I am in complete disagreement with what most here are saying regarding the advice they have gotten from their lawyers. This sounds very much like a lawyer's attempt to make himself more important.

The fact is most lawyers (99.99% of then) do not regularly deal with cases involving INNOCENT criminal defendants. Self-defense is an affirmative defense and if you want it to work for you, it has to start from the beginning and that includes first contact with responding officers. Its very difficult to jump into an affirmative defense halfway into an investigation.

I have responded to hundreds of shootings and a lot of justifiable shootings and testified in several justifiable shootings at preliminary hearings and discussed the related issues with homicide detectives in the decision to arrest or not more times than most lawyers have been in court.

Juries will have a hard time understanding why you just shot someone and then told the guys or gals coming to help you "I ain't talkin' till I get a lawyer." That is the defense of the bad guys. Anyone remember Bernard Goetz? He would probably not be a convicted felon today if his lawyer represented innocent people on a regular basis.

My suggestion is don't get diaharria of the mouth but you should say something.

Something to the effect of "Officer, that man there tried to kill me and I shot him in self-defense. I know you have an investigation to do and I will gladly cooperate and sign any complaints against the man who tried to kill me." Then point out any witnesses to the incident. Then and only then say "Before discussing any of the details of this incident, I'd like to speak to my attorney first and will fully cooperate with your investigation then."

This places you in the position of a person who has responded in justifiable self-defense not just a guy standign there with a smoking gun and a dead guy at his feet.

A lawyer who advises you to just say nothing is giving very bad advice in my opinion.

Also anyone who makes light of a justifiable self-defense shooting on a public forum really ought to consider the above statement about verbal diharria.

Anyone who believes a dead suspect is safer to you financially and personally than a live one just hasn't considered the issues very thoroughly.

A dead man's relatives can be just as harmful physically and financially and possibly more so.

Whether a suspect lives or dies in a justifiable self-defense shooting should be a matter for the E.R. doctors not for you. Your concern should be the protection of yourself and your family. A suspect's death has little bearing on this. If your self-protection practices solve this matter don't worry about it.

One thing I will agree with is that if you do what some here are advocating (i.e. commit a criminal act) then your best advice is to say nothing. That's what criminals do.

Michael Brown

Mike I think you are a truly honest man, I respect you and your advice and judgement. Mark Thomas Edmond Ok

[Jim Macklin]

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate those that understood the seriousness of my question. I wasn't asking how to beat a murder rap. I never really thought about what to say or do after the police arrive, I wanted to know what to do until they get there and what they would want to see on arrival. I am sure I would be nervous, and pretty shaken up.

I don't desire to kill anyone. I value life, but I realize that I may be called upon one day to take a life in defense of my life or the lives of my loved ones against those that don't. That is a mental commitment I have made and will live with.

Most of us will have had training and a license, an advantage of getting the CCW. The cops will expect that we know what to do and say, so having a simple speech memorized won't hurt, neither will taking some positive steps.

My intentions will be to survive any confrontation and be able to call 911 and give my name and the fact that I was just attacked [or stopped an attack on another person] and an ambulance is needed no for [estimate number of innocents and perps]. Describe myself in general terms, clothes, color, age.
Secure any weapons [without touching it]laying around and take a photo with my cellphone camera too. Maybe take a picture and then cover it with a box or have somebody responsible watch it.
When sure there is no further threat holster my gun.

When the officers arrive, identify myself and show my ID. Say that" During my training I was advised many times to give my name and address and only the minimum since memory after a trauma is not reliable. My friend who happens to be a lawyer has told me to stop talking and have him or another lawyer present during any questioning or interview. Do not talk to anyone other than your lawyer, particularly any reporter or anyone with a camera or taping.

[Matthew77]

In reading almost 10 pages of this thread one quote from a very very wise man comes to mind.

"At that point I had the right to remain silent....Just not the ability." Ron White Blue Color Comedy Tour

[jscg.nunley]

I also have been reading ten pages of some reasonable and some dumb advice. So I will not annoy you with anymore. I will however, just share what me, myself and I would do. First off, in the event that I have determined I am authorized to use deadly force, I will do exactly that, for it is my right. I will not hesitate and waste valuable time trying to prevent imminent danger by focusing on just stopping the BG. When I shoot at the range I dont shoot at the legs on the targets or the arms. I shoot two to the chest and one to the head. My training will kick in and take over! Second, you are not required to say jack diddley squat to LE other than name, show CCWP,and address. It kills me to whatch COPS(tv series) and see people giving up their rights and babbling to Cops. Granted everyone on Cops is always a criminal and diserves going to jail. I'm not condoning the criminals but as a citizen of this Great Country you should know your rights and the difference between knowing your rights and not could determine if you go to jail or not regardless of actual guilt. As I said, Im not advising anyone of anything other than what I would do in the event.The BG is not concerned with your wellbeing and will not hesitate to put lead thru your head or that of your family. If they were a reasonable person they wouldnt be a BG. When it comes down to it I would rather be tryed by 12 than carried by 6 and so would my wife and kids. Although my wife might shoot the BG in the balls but thats a whole other story. Shes working on her aim! In short I will use "Deadly Force" to the fullest extent and I will call LE and I will present ID, CCWP, and address.....Then I will shut the hell up! One thing I can count on is that the BG will not be testifying against this guy!

Peace thru War

[Newbie]

Wow, what a fistfull of good advice here!

To add to an ancient discussion, I've realized several things from this thread that I wasn't originally aware of about myself.

1. I'd probably puke my guts out while on the phone to 911. I'm a jumpy caffene ridden old bastard anyway so add adreneline to the mix and I'm sure to see breakfast again.

2. If the police arrived and pointed a gun at me, I'd cry like a 2 year old baby and piss a river. And I wouldn't care who saw me. You'd have to pry my outstretched hands from the clouds and my eyes open (think Hiro from Heros) otherwise I'd be a shaky, jittery, caffinated blubbering mess. Right in front of my kids and wife.

3. If the officer didn't arrest me just because I was shaking so bad I made HIM nervous, he'd hit me in the mouth to keep me from saying "Thank you" and "Should I do anything else?" repeatedly.

4. I'd need a ride home. Preferably in a car with washable seats. Driving is not an option.

5. I hope Glock em Down or MB are my first officers on scene. God bless you guys for the valuable, anti-lawyer advice for a true victim. It's sad that today you have to even consider thinking in lawyer-speak first and truth second.

[scruffy]

I hope Glock em Down or MB are my first officers on scene. God bless you guys for the valuable, anti-lawyer advice for a true victim.

I haven't been on the boards for long, but let me say I've really been impressed with Glock Em and MB's open and honest advice on a wide range of topics. Their comments on this topic are no exception.

[jscg.nunley]

NEWBIE go write poetry!! And whats all the blah blah blah about a true victim anyway? I guess you were trying to be clever and philosophical phff! Try again.

:rubhands:

[ExSniper]

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. As a general guideline I suggest that once officers arrive you say: "I was in fear for my life. I had to defend myself. I will sign a complaint against that person(indicating the person you had to shoot). I need medical assistance from a doctor. I want to speak to my attorney."
You might also indicate any physical evidence or potential witnesses to the LEOs. Then just sit down quietly and wait to see a doctor and your lawyer. If you are a normal victim of violent crime who has just had to defend yourself, you will need both.

[GCC]

I am not a Lawyer and this is NOT LEGAL ADVICE!!!

You must also think about statements made on a 911 call. They are recorded and if they sound bad for the defendant they will be played over and over in a courtroom. You need to give your location and name first so if you get disconnected LE will know where to go and that you made the call. I believe that the main portion of the 911 call should consist of
1. He tried to kill me
2. I have never been so scared in my life
3. Please send an ambulance

That’s where I'd leave it without Time and Council.

[t mar]

:scream::comfort::offtopic::loser:NEWBIE go write poetry!! And whats all the blah blah blah about a true victim anyway? I guess you were trying to be clever and philosophical phff! Try again.

:rubhands:

[cubby55]

Call your lawyer or have someone call your lawyer before the LE gets there. Might save you a little time in the hoosegow.

[tweetr]

2. Put your weapon at your feet.
2b. (this is where I disagreed but you will get the idea)

Strongly, strongly disagree! Having been through a number of combat courses, armed and unarmed, military and otherwise, the first rule of man-to-man violent conflict is: control the weapon! I will not be placing my weapon on the ground where someone else can grab it. If the bad guy looks dead, eyes glazed, death-rattle in his throat, rictus distorting his features, I still will not leave his weapon anywhere that he or anyone else can grab it! I understand the argument about preserving evidence; but with respect, that is the policeman's job. My job is to preserve my life and that of my loved ones. I would rather still be alive to discuss the evidentiary niceties.

Which leads me to my second point:

again.. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING.. Nothing.. Nada.. zip.. I don't care how nice the LEO is.. in this instance he is not your friend. He is doing a job and that job is to get you to talk. Shut up and Lawyer up.

Amen, preach it, brother! You are under no obligation to prove that you did not commit a crime. In the heat of the moment you will be in the worst possible mental state to give a considered statement. Your first words of any kind regarding what happened should be spoken to your attorney. (I can see my own attorney and dear friend nodding his approval.) :)

As with so many other posts in this thread: This is not legal advice! I am not an attorney and I don't play one on television.

[SoonerBorn]

I pretty much agree w/ everything that MB has posted throughout this entire thread....some of you other guys are crazy though.....:screwy:

[MiKelly]

My SDA instructor went over this in detail, which is part of why I recommend him so much. I feel truly ready to defend myself without fear of not knowing what to do afterward. I talk to a lot of guys that went through the class at other places and didn't get half of what I got out of it. PM if you need his contact info.

[specialop24]

In previouse experience, LEO in Pennsylvania not OK, IMHO you should probably try to be as cooperative as you can. Granted you are in a very shaky state of mind and it is to be expected. If the officers ask you for you weapon, you must surrender it, but don't just leave it open and waiting for someone to grab. I most definately agree with Mike Brown in every way. Don't give a disertation, but don't just sit there and say I want a lawyer. It just looks bad. The men and women who work in LE ARE accually there to help you, just try to help them and mostly they will return the favor. (Some exceptions do apply)

And as everyone else... I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I CAN'T GIVE ADVISE.... NOT EVEN TO MYSELF

[VociferousJD]

Many posters have stated that asking for a lawyer immediately "looks bad" or might make them "look guilty."

Who cares?

The fact that you refused to speak to the officers on the scene and invoked your to an attorney or your right to remain silent cannot be used against you in a criminal trial.

[SirROFL]

"Anything you say can be used AGAINST you in a court of law."

Note: Nothing you say can be used FOR you. All those officers who you were cooperating with and being nice to don't matter in court. Anything good they say about you is considered hearsay.
However, anything negative they say about you, or facts they forget or get a little bit off can put you away.

If someone takes poor notes, or forgets exactly what you said, they can inadvertently contradict your story.

[uncle money bags]

Good call Trade Sniper!
I would only add; "hang up the phone", at the end of number 3.

[Michael Brown]

Many posters have stated that asking for a lawyer immediately "looks bad" or might make them "look guilty."

Who cares?

The fact that you refused to speak to the officers on the scene and invoked your to an attorney or your right to remain silent cannot be used against you in a criminal trial.

Have you handled a justifiable lethal force case?

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

"Anything you say can be used AGAINST you in a court of law."

Note: Nothing you say can be used FOR you. All those officers who you were cooperating with and being nice to don't matter in court. Anything good they say about you is considered hearsay.
However, anything negative they say about you, or facts they forget or get a little bit off can put you away.

If someone takes poor notes, or forgets exactly what you said, they can inadvertently contradict your story.

This is completely inaccurate, particularly in a non-grand jury state like Oklahoma.

Your statements made to police can be used for or against you in court and are not considered hearsay. I know because I've done it.

Everyone should have a lawyer on their side; the police will have one, the city will have one, the state will have one etc. You should too.

However requesting a lawyer is entirely different from refusing to say ANYTHING until your lawyer arrives. This gives the police very limited choice as to how to proceed.

Having witnessed firsthand (and been part of) numerous lethal force investigations and their subsequent litigation, I will give the simple statement that I have advocated in this and several other threads and then politely decline to answer further questions until I have my attorney present to make a well-reasoned decision on how to proceed.

Michael Brown

[SirROFL]

http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=11091

[Michael Brown]

http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=11091

This is completely unrelated to a self-defense shooting which is an affirmative defense.

If the police are asking you if you stole a car, it's probably a good idea to invoke your fifth amendment rights.

If you shoot another human being in self defense and want a court to agree with you, legal doctrine shifts the burden of proof from the state to the defendant (one of very few situations where you must prove your innnocence) since you are essentially agreeing that you have committed the act the state alleges you committed; You are simply arguing that it was justified to do so.

Do whatever you want when your rear is on the line, but don't be suprised if you decide to lawyer up and get the Bernard Goetz treatment.

http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12516

Michael Brown

[spd67]

This is completely inaccurate, particularly in a non-grand jury state like Oklahoma.

Your statements made to police can be used for or against you in court and are not considered hearsay. I know because I've done it.

Everyone should have a lawyer on their side; the police will have one, the city will have one, the state will have one etc. You should too.

However requesting a lawyer is entirely different from refusing to say ANYTHING until your lawyer arrives. This gives the police very limited choice as to how to proceed.

Having witnessed firsthand (and been part of) numerous lethal force investigations and their subsequent litigation, I will give the simple statement that I have advocated in this and several other threads and then politely decline to answer further questions until I have my attorney present to make a well-reasoned decision on how to proceed.

Michael Brown

I agree totally as a Police Officer.

I would only add that when the boys in blue arrive don't have your gun in your hand...

[BadKarma]

As a police officer who has been involved in an on duty shooting, the suspect was killed, my best advice is to make a VERY brief, concise statement as to what took place and then have a really large cup of shut the F*** Up! Not making further statements until legal representation is available does nothing to change the facts or evidence as to what happened. I can assure you that your state of mind will be more like an out of body experience. During this time you are fully capable of making statements that can come back to haunt you later. Allowing yourself to be questioned by police during this time is not a wise decision.

[aturp]

I have just read through all eleven pages of this thread and what MB has said is pretty much right on with what they told us the CC class. I think it also makes the most sense.

[OologahBiker]

Oh Gawd! I don't know why I do this to myself...I guess I'm just a glutton, but...anyway...here goes! Say you as an SDA licensed member stand about 6'5" and weigh about 300 pounds and you get assaulted by a guy that's 5'8" and weighs in at around 160 pounds soaking wet...can you smoke him with your gun? Or will a court of law kinda look down at you for that? I mean...being that you (if you are this size) are almost TWICE AS BIG AS HIM (or her, for that matter) do you think that maybe you can resolve this altercation some other way? How do you think this would make you look in a court of law?

This question came up in my SDA class where as a friend of mine in the class was used as an example, he is 6' 7" 450 lb's they told him if a person half his size was coming after him with a gun or knife that using deadly force for him was not the same weapon it might be a bat or something else. Because of his size deadly force for him is not the same weapon