200 Graduates Defy Judge's Ban on Commencement Ceremony Prayer

[oldsoldier]

200 Graduates Defy Judge's Ban on Commencement Ceremony Prayer
A Kentucky school superintendent says he's proud of the Russell County High School students who recited the Lord's Prayer at Friday's graduation ceremony.
>> Read full story (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2006/may/0523_school_prayer.shtml)

[savedbygrace]

Good for them!

[olyeller]

they should arrest the whole lot of em for breaking the law!



just kidding.

[okfireman]

About time Americans stood up to those carpet baggin commies the ACLU. Makes ya even prouder it is the next generation.

[kgull85]

I applaud the students for exercising their constitutional rights, but that article is misleading.

The title of the article says that the students defied the judges orders, but that is not quite true. The judge granted a temporary restraining order to keep a prayer from being pary of the graduation ceremony. It had nothing to do with a group of students praying on their own.

The lawyer mentioned in the case was reported to have said that "student-initiated prayer before or after the ceremony would be OK." I guess the students had other plans and interrupted the principle's opening remarks (which was quite rude if you ask me). I wonder if the results would have been the same if a group of muslim students started a prayer in the middle of the ceremony.

[Buzz70]

I applaud the students for exercising their constitutional rights, but that article is misleading.

The title of the article says that the students defied the judges orders, but that is not quite true. The judge granted a temporary restraining order to keep a prayer from being pary of the graduation ceremony. It had nothing to do with a group of students praying on their own.

The lawyer mentioned in the case was reported to have said that "student-initiated prayer before or after the ceremony would be OK." I guess the students had other plans and interrupted the principle's opening remarks (which was quite rude if you ask me). I wonder if the results would have been the same if a group of muslim students started a prayer in the middle of the ceremony.

This is a GREAT story!

Given the circumstances I don't feel the students were "rude". Nobody at the graduation felt they were rude, including the Superintendent of schools.

If a group of muslim students started a prayer in the middle of the ceremony, well then of course the response would have been different. I'm sure it would have gotten ugly.

[kgull85]

Nobody at the graduation felt they were rude, including the Superintendent of schools.

I bet if there were any atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddists, etc.. in the audience they would have thought that the students were being rude.

[Buzz70]

I bet if there were any atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddists, etc.. in the audience they would have thought that the students were being rude.


True, however it didn't offend me. :)

[GMThunder]

True, however it didn't offend me. :)

This is double standard thinking.....and that's the problem. Had that been here and muslim group.... people would have lost their minds. Disrespectful if you ask me.

Given the circumstances I don't feel the students were "rude". Nobody at the graduation felt they were rude, including the Superintendent of schools.


The only reason you don't think it wasn't rude is due to your bias. It's OK for christians to do this but not anyone else?

[Buzz70]

This is double standard thinking.....and that's the problem. Had that been here and muslim group.... people would have lost their minds. Disrespectful if you ask me.



The only reason you don't think it wasn't rude is due to your bias. It's OK for christians to do this but not anyone else?

Too true, you caught me. A lot of people (if not everybody) are guilty of this way of thinking. I'll admit it.

[GMThunder]

A lot of people (if not everybody) are guilty of this way of thinking. I'll admit it.

I definately wouldn't make this assumption.

[Buzz70]

I definately wouldn't make this assumption.

That was presumptuous of me. Not meaning to offend anyone. Just my opinion. It seems that Cristians are starting to become a minority in this country. Once again my opinion.

[okfireman]

This country and all of its laws were based on Christian beliefs. If that upsets some one then as far as I am concerned they can start their own country somewheres else. In my opinion we should fight to keep this country great and part of that fight is protecting what our fore fathers came here for in the first place. I am so sick and tired of one or two atheists trying to dictate to me why I shouldn't be allowed to pray. Or how my son or daughter is no longer allowed to celebrate Christmas in school because it might offend some muslim. But boy they are sure quick to hand out the Koran or teach them that a homosexual lifestyle is okay. If we don't turn this country back over to GOD we will not have a country. If you were to make a timeline starting at the first attempts to take prayer from school in 1968 there has been a steady downcline in our country. The further we wander from GOD's light the darker and gloomier our country gets.

[8Cyl Firebird]

This is double standard thinking.....and that's the problem. Had that been here and muslim group.... people would have lost their minds. Disrespectful if you ask me.

I don't exactly agree. I think that the assumption that it would get ugly or that people would have lost their minds is not entirely accurate, and only a matter of opinion. Had this been a high school in say Iran, Iraq, Turkey, or any other coutry where Islam is the dominant religion and a judge did the same thing to a group of Islam students and they stood up and prayed it would have been just as beautiful of an act. Typicaly Muslims don't get offended by Christians showing their faith in God. A true follower of the Islamic faith will not get upset. Not one who is living according to the way their faith tells them anyways. Believe it or not, aside from the crazies the media shows Muslims are extremely tolerate and loving of Christians. If anyone doubts that statement I would be more then happy to take you to a mosque here in Oklahoma City and introduce you to a Mr. Sadd Mahad, an Iman, whom I have a lot of respect for.

It is my experience that the fight of equality in religion is not generally being fought by Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc, but rather by people with no faith who are looking for a cause and a way that they feel they can improve the world and make it "more fair".

Bottom line: This is the United State of America, Christianity is the dominant faith here and being that, it would show more often and in more places. Same is with Turkey (one of many examples), if you go there Islam is the dominant faith and will show more often and in more places. I think the people being "disrespectful" are all of those trying to run around making everything more fair and equal. In my opinion the money they use to file that lawsuit could be better spent feeding the homeless or some other charitable cause.

The only reason you don't think it wasn't rude is due to your bias. It's OK for christians to do this but not anyone else?

Is it not true that you are bias as well? I think it is a fair and accurate statement to say that noone is truly "unbiased". We are all biased based on are believes.

[GMThunder]

This country and all of its laws were based on Christian beliefs. If that upsets some one then as far as I am concerned they can start their own country somewheres else. In my opinion we should fight to keep this country great and part of that fight is protecting what our fore fathers came here for in the first place. I am so sick and tired of one or two atheists trying to dictate to me why I shouldn't be allowed to pray. Or how my son or daughter is no longer allowed to celebrate Christmas in school because it might offend some muslim. But boy they are sure quick to hand out the Koran or teach them that a homosexual lifestyle is okay. If we don't turn this country back over to GOD we will not have a country. If you were to make a timeline starting at the first attempts to take prayer from school in 1968 there has been a steady downcline in our country. The further we wander from GOD's light the darker and gloomier our country gets.

Actually you need to go back and review some history.... this country was founded by freemasons. If you could point out where in the constitution it says anything about christianity. Bill of Rights? Please by all means, I'm all ears.

You're exaggeratting here.... they don't teach the koran in school, nor do they teach homosexuality. I surely don't want dictate what you do in your church or home. However, at a PUBLIC SCHOOL function the religion should be represented before or after the ceremony and all groups should be given a chance to be represented.

[GMThunder]

I don't exactly agree. I think that the assumption that it would get ugly or that people would have lost their minds is not entirely accurate, and only a matter of opinion. Had this been a high school in say Iran, Iraq, Turkey, or any other coutry where Islam is the dominant religion and a judge did the same thing to a group of Islam students and they stood up and prayed it would have been just as beautiful of an act. Typicaly Muslims don't get offended by Christians showing their faith in God.

Ok, You REEEEALLY need to do some research here to find how off base you are. Muslim dominant countries such as Iran would tolerate this?? Are you kidding? All I can say is that you really need to make yourself aware of what is really going on in the middle east. Just to give you ONE example, the Shi-ite dominate muslim based council proposed a bill that would make a non-muslim man's equal to that of a muslim man's life. Currently it is not equal and is measured in livestock. Oh ya..... the publication of any Christian literature is prohibited. Muslim to christian converts are subject to the death penalty. Yeah, don't think this kind of act would be considered "beautiful"....if the tables were turned.

This is a far cry from a small mosque in OKC and is by far the majority in the middle east. Both factions would tell you that they are "true" believers...... Who is right? The one you agree with more??

I think the people being "disrespectful" are all of those trying to run around making everything more fair and equal.

Last time I checked this country was founded on that philosophy.

Is it not true that you are bias as well? I think it is a fair and accurate statement to say that noone is truly "unbiased". We are all biased based on are believes.

In this case I'm not bias towards one religion or another or lack of..... if it had been any other I think it would have been equally as arrogant and rude. Public schools are a state run institution to where ideally, kids a treated equally regardless of race or religion. Kids can practice whatever book of faith they want to as far as I'm concerned, but I don't need my kids to be hit over the head with a bible during a graduation ceremony.

The bias I refer to is that these are rights of equality are those that non-christians hold just as dear to their hearts as you otherwise would if they were compromised. You yourselves would demand them if the tables were turned. Certain people turn a shoulder and that to me is a double-standard.

[Buzz70]

Hey GM, toss another hook in the water and see if someone else bites. :)

[GMThunder]

Hey GM, toss another hook in the water and see if someone else bites. :)

Initially, I more or less repeated what Kgull said. If people are making incorrect assumptions about me, the middle east, and the history of our country then I'll speak up. Nothing more, nothing less. If you think this is a hook, line or sinker of some sort then I dunno what to tell you. :lookaroun

[8Cyl Firebird]

Ok, You REEEEALLY need to do some research here to find how off base you are. Muslim dominant countries such as Iran would tolerate this?? Are you kidding? All I can say is that you really need to make yourself aware of what is really going on in the middle east. Just to give you ONE example, the Shi-ite dominate muslim based council proposed a bill that would make a non-muslim man's equal to that of a muslim man's life. Currently it is not equal and is measured in livestock. Oh ya..... the publication of any Christian literature is prohibited. Muslim to christian converts are subject to the death penalty. Yeah, don't think this kind of act would be considered "beautiful"....if the tables were turned.

This is a far cry from a small mosque in OKC and is by far the majority in the middle east. Both factions would tell you that they are "true" believers...... Who is right? The one you agree with more??



Last time I checked this country was founded on that philosophy.



In this case I'm not bias towards one religion or another or lack of..... if it had been any other I think it would have been equally as arrogant and rude. Public schools are a state run institution to where ideally, kids a treated equally regardless of race or religion. Kids can practice whatever book of faith they want to as far as I'm concerned, but I don't need my kids to be hit over the head with a bible during a graduation ceremony.

The bias I refer to is that these are rights of equality are those that non-christians hold just as dear to their hearts as you otherwise would if they were compromised. You yourselves would demand them if the tables were turned. Certain people turn a shoulder and that to me is a double-standard.

I'm not trying to escape out from this discussion, but to answer back would require more typing then I prefer to do. Maybe we can goto Hooters and chit chat about this stuff over a couple beers. I'm always down to hear other sides....

[GMThunder]

I'm always open for a beer and discussion. :thumb:

[olyeller]

"as far as I am concerned they can start their own country somewheres else"

-intolerance at its finest.

[GMThunder]

"as far as I am concerned they can start their own country somewheres else"

-intolerance at its finest.

That remark reminded me of a South Park episode..... "Goobacks"

[kgull85]

"as far as I am concerned they can start their own country somewheres else"

-intolerance at its finest.

+1

[okfireman]

intolerance at its finest.

I can live with that. I only have about 80% of America agreeing with me. As well as the big guy upstairs. I sick and tired of a few atheists trying to change the status quo. It is my belief that loyalty to Jesus Christ comes first, followed by loyalty to America. If you don't agree with that let me know I can always add ya to my prayer list.

As for showing you Gmt thunder something stating our founding fathers were christians...Let me give you a little history lesson:

The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”

The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.

New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

[Mack45]

Gentlemen,
Please reread the general usage rules concerning intolerant views and controversial subjects. I've stated my feelings about these types of threads in the past.

[8Cyl Firebird]

I don't mind this thread continuing, but stay civil. Mack out ranks me so be nice. hah

[Michael Brown]

I can live with that. I only have about 80% of America agreeing with me. As well as the big guy upstairs. I sick and tired of a few atheists trying to change the status quo. It is my belief that loyalty to Jesus Christ comes first, followed by loyalty to America. If you don't agree with that let me know I can always add ya to my prayer list.



This is simply not true.

Gallup, USA Today, and all the other major pollers consistently demonstrate that only about 50% of Americans believe in the Resurrection. Oklahomans are different and a much higher percentage are believers (among which I count myself) but the facts are that less than 50% of Americans actually read the Bible.

Thus the status quo is definitely not Christian.

While I believe, most people do not and I believe in their right not to and generally do not impose my religion upon them. We cannot bring people to Christ through intolerance and inquisition.

We can only do it by loving them and accepting them wherever they are on their spiritual journey.

Michael Brown

[kgull85]

While I believe, most people do not and I believe in their right not to and generally do not impose my religion upon them. We cannot bring people to Christ through intolerance and inquisition.

We can only do it by loving them and accepting them wherever they are on their spiritual journey.

Although I disagree with your comment that most people do not believe (at least in the US), I do find the rest of your comment very refreshing and more what I would expect a Christain to say/believe.

It should also be pointed out that many of the original settlements in the colonies outlawed religions besides the one they subscribed to. They fled to the new land to escape religious persecution and then imposed the same thing they were fleeing on other people.

Also I think when people (well at least me) refer to the "founding fathers" they are talking about the authors of the Consitution and not the Pilgrams and the orignal settlerers. And many of the "founding fathers" were not Christains. How many times do the words god, Jesus, christ, "10 commandments" appear in the Constitution?

[okfireman]

I agree for the most part with you Mr. Brown However my original point was that I will not stand idle while a few people regress our country from christianity. I will not apologize for being achristian and I am proud of being that. As for the civility or intolerance of this thread I was only speaking my opinion and did not ever mean to come across uncivil. However when pushed into a corner I will fight.

[GMThunder]

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

You couldn't be more wrong. Once again.... there are no references to Christianity in the Constitution or The Bill of Rights. Might I also remind you that the the document's themselves state.... and I quote.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


Hardly sounds like "Christian" promotion there.....

Now if you care to go through each individual founding father I'll be happy for more discussion.

Our Declaration of Independence says that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This says abolutely NOTHING about Christianity.

Please educate yourself on the TRUE history and foundation of our country. Practice whatever you like I could care less but don't twist what was done and said to conform to your religion.

[Michael Brown]

Although I disagree with your comment that most people do not believe (at least in the US), I do find the rest of your comment very refreshing and more what I would expect a Christain to say/believe.

I guess the point I was trying to get at is that most people do not believe the Bible really is the word of God.

In the U.S. most people were born to some sort of Christian/Catholic faith meaning their families were at some point associated with a Christian religious group but really don't practice it.

My general feel is that if you don't believe in the Resurrection, you probably aren't a Christian. Not a knock on somebody but just hard to reconcile if one doesn't believe in a major facet of Christian faith.

I wasn't trying to imply that 50% of Americans are atheists or believe in other religions. I was stating that the 80% figure of people believing that the U.S. should follow fundamental Christian beliefs, as far as government administration goes, was extremely high.

Michael Brown

[kgull85]

I guess the point I was trying to get at is that most people do not believe the Bible really is the word of God.

I don't suppose you have a link to the poll you got the 50% number from do you? I'd be intrested in seeing that.


My general feel is that if you don't believe in the Resurrection, you probably aren't a Christian. Not a knock on somebody but just hard to reconcile if one doesn't believe in a major facet of Christian faith.

You make a very good point there and I agree.


I wasn't trying to imply that 50% of Americans are atheists or believe in other religions. I was stating that the 80% figure of people believing that the U.S. should follow fundamental Christian beliefs, as far as government administration goes, was extremely high.

LIke I said I'd like to see that poll you are referring too, I was under the impression that the 80% mark was still pretty close.


okfireman, why is it that you think the US is a "Christain nation"? Becuase the maority of the people are Christains?

[Mack45]

Civility is the key. I want to keep the thread open as long as the discussion remains civil. I don't want anyone on either side of the discussion to feel like they are "backed into a corner" or are being persecuted or disrespected in any way for their beliefs.

[8Cyl Firebird]

I believe this nation was founded on fundamental Christian beliefs, but one of the reason you won't find it often in items such as the Bill of Rights or Constitution is because the founding fathers did not want the religion to become dominant over the country such as it did in Europe. We could argue this all day long, but it reality I think it is obvious that none of us lived there and are all making our best interpretation based upon our own studies of what we read. Unless we can call up ol' Ben Franklin or George Washington and ask them we will be only making our best educated interpretation. That is just the way it is. Something that needs to stop in this thread is people calling people "wrong", because no one in this thread can provide enough evidence to support what there saying on events that took place a very long time ago. Everyone in here is entitle to their opinion and that is what makes this country so great. We COULD all be wrong so lets just all agree to disagree.

[okfireman]

On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered him, John Hancock, and others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England. Adams responded to him:

“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”

Thomas Jefferson: as seen in the Thomas Jefferson musuem.
Written in the front of his personal Bible, he wrote:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

I don't know but that sounds pretty straight forward. I could go on with most of the other founding fathers.

Remember there were approximatley 55 founding fathers plus or minus 5 depending on who you ask. Of those 55, not all were instrumental in forming the constitution. However, the denominational affiliations of these men were and are a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

Did that say Congregationalists? I think if you read my previous post it gives a timeline of the progression of Puritans to Congregationalists.

GMTthumder I have studied my history, all of my posts are fundamental to American history. There are however ways to see each others points. What I originally was trying to say is that if my kids schools want to teach about evolution, Islamic cultures, alternative lifestyles, etc. they had better give equal time to the christian beliefs I hold. For example: if it is okay for a muslim to wear a burka to school then it should also be okay for my son or daughters to bring a bible to school or bless their food before they eat. They are both forms of religous expression. However when my son had his bible out reading it to himself not witnessing to anyone else he was sent to the office and I was called stating that he was not allowed to have a book of that nature at school. Conversley that year they had to read excerpts from the Koran, in their world cultures class. As such they now are at a different public school that still believes in corporal punishment and prayer in schools.(at least until the ACLU finds out)

I am only trying to say just as you do not want me to impose my religion on you I do not want anyone trying to take away my ability to practice it.
We both have that right.

[okfireman]

8cyl I cannot agree more. I truly apologize to everyone who I may have offended. This is definately a passionate topic for both sides. With that I humbly end my side of the debate so that we all may still be friends.

[NikatKimber]

As I have stated before in another thread, I think that a Christian's strongest witness is his actions. I agree with whoever it was that said if the students interupted the superintindent, then it was rude. However, someone also in a previous post quoted the bill of rights, amendment 1... partially. The entire amendment says:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" I don't think that public prayer is "forcing" my religion on anyone. I pray before important events in life, and at regular times in life, graduation is definately an important time. I have had muslim friends, have read portions of the Koran, and am interested in learning about different cultures and religions. I would not be offended if the local muslim group requested a few min of the ceremony to give their prayer (i'm not sure about how their religion works in this). I don't think it is fair that one student was offended by the idea of public prayer, and thus kept all the Christians from practising their religion. I would like to ask the student if he/she would have been offended if it was a buddhist that wanted to give a blessing????
All that said, I was homeschooled, and will homeschool my children, Lord willing. My parents were free to teach as they felt compelled to do so, including teaching the Bible as part of the curriculum. But don't think my parents were intolerant. I vividly remember one year when one of the men my dad worked with, who was a Hindu, came over for dinner. We then spent the rest of that spring doing an in depth study of the Hindu religion. We set up a table at the geography fair that spring, including making several different hindu foods, and dressing in the native hindu style. I learned a lot.
Intollerance is not American, free practise of religion is. Within the bounds of law, which our law is base upon a very Biblical foundation. The laws in this country (at least as of 50-100 years ago), which are now being fought in court, agree with no other religion other than Christianity. That said, I do not say that all the laws that were in that time period were based on Christianity.
For those of you who say that our nation was NOT founded on Christianity, please tell me what it WAS founded on. I have not yet found any source of government, or religion which would produce the kind of government we have.
Again, I am not saying that our government was/is perfect, just that I think it quite obvious that it was founded upon Christian principles. I will look for some more quotes by the founding fathers. I do not think they were trying "force" their religion on anyone else, but just the same, they most definately did not want to stifle Christianity, which is what some seem to be trying to do today.
Brent

[GMThunder]

Ok in Benjamin Franklin's autobiography... he wrote...
"My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

in an Essay on "Toleration" Benjamin Franklin wrote...

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

James Madison considered the father of our constitution....

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church.


Now.... I could go on and on.... but the fact remains that our founding fathers put NOTHING in the constitution to warrant your claims. In fact it's quite obvious that they left out religion of any kind for a reason, even made sure of a seperation of church and state. You say that your posts are fundamental to history but I don't see how. You gave me a few quotes from a personal document. Hardly proof that our founding fathers wanted to perpetuate christianity in America. Seemingly they wanted to practice it and to leave others to do as they please.

They are both forms of religous expression. However when my son had his bible out reading it to himself not witnessing to anyone else he was sent to the office and I was called stating that he was not allowed to have a book of that nature at school. Conversley that year they had to read excerpts from the Koran, in their world cultures class. As such they now are at a different public school that still believes in corporal punishment and prayer in schools.(at least until the ACLU finds out)

This is not comparable to Islamic dress..... a christian child would be allowed to wear the same things if they pleased however there is no speciifc dress so one MIGHT see this as a double standard. If every child of any and every given religion were allowed interupt class with reading out loud then teaching would become a logistic impossibility.

I am only trying to say just as you do not want me to impose my religion on you I do not want anyone trying to take away my ability to practice it.


Whether you like it or not we live in a land of equality...... that means not just equality for Christians therefore for the government to conduct business with the public.... religion has to seperated or problems will arise. This has been proven many times over throughout history. You have plenty of places conduct worship. Here's a little hint though.... being overbearing and arrogant with it will only turn people off to your religion. Like interrupting a graduation ceremony.

[Michael Brown]

I don't suppose you have a link to the poll you got the 50% number from do you? I'd be intrested in seeing that.


LIke I said I'd like to see that poll you are referring too, I was under the impression that the 80% mark was still pretty close.


Go to USA Today online and do a search for polls. That's the best I can give you since I read it a couple years ago Easter weekend.

The figure regarding actually reading the Bible was quoted by Woodrow Croall on his radio show with the study provided by Gallup.

Michael Brown

[okfireman]

2003-SEP-24: Ten Commandments poll: A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll was conducted during the week of SEP-24. Results were released on about AUG-28. It found that 77% of the 1,009 subjects polled disapproved of the decision by the U.S. District Court to have the Ten Commandments monument removed from the rotunda of the Alabama Justice Building. 3 The margin of error was approximately 3.2 percentage points. That is, if the poll were repeated twenty times, that nineteen results would be within 3.2 percentage points of 77%.
2003-SEP-29: Church-state separation poll: A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll was conducted on SEP-19 to 21. Results were released on SEP-29. It was a time of heightened concern across the U.S. about church-state separation issues. In the preceding weeks there were many demonstrations concerning the Alabama monument.
Findings include:

Question.......................................... ...................Approve Disapprove No response
The inscription "In God we Trust" on U.S. Coins.............90%..........8%................. ......2%
Non-denominational prayer at public school ceremonies...78%..........21%..................... 1%
Monument of the Ten Commandments in a public area.....70%..........29%.....................1%
Monument of the Qur'an in a public area.......................33%..........64%....... ..............3%
Federal funds for social programs run by Christian
organizations..................................... ......................64%..........34%............ .........2%
Federal funds for social programs run by Islamic
organizations..................................... ......................41% ..........56%.....................3%


The precise meaning of the term "non-denominational prayer" in the second question might have been unclear to some participants. Some might interpret the phrase as referring to a general theistic prayer to God that is acceptable to Baha'i's Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and other theists. Others might interpret it as referring to a generic Christian prayer that is acceptable to members of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant denominations.

The precise meaning of the term "public area" may have also confused some participants. Some might interpret the term as referring to a government location, such as a federal, state or municipal park; a government office building, a public school, etc. Others might have interpreted it more generally to include any place where the public can freely gather, such as church grounds, private parks, sides of roads, etc.

[okfireman]

If you read my post I already said Franklin was on the record as being a deist and for your information that is defined as:
"One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

James Madison "Father of the Constitution." was , co-author of the “Federalist Papers,” was an Episcopalian and trained for the ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon. and also said:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." if that is not irreprehensible proof that our fore fathers framed all of the american government around christianity then you just don't want to listen. The first amendments origins is in the Virginia Bill on Religious Freedom.

The roots of the First Amendment can be traced to a bill written by Thomas Jefferson in 1777 and proposed to the Virginia Legislature in 1779 It guaranteed freedom of (and from) religion. After an impassioned speech by James Madison, and after some amendments, it became law on 1786-JAN-16.
In 1789, the first of ten amendments were written to the constitution; they have since been known as the Bill of Rights. Wonder Why they chose the number ten?

Furthermore it is easy to quote Thomas Paine, he is best known for his radical religous views, it is what ultimately destroyed his success. I too have readsome of his works: AGE OF REASON, THE RIGHTS OF MAN, THE CRISIS & COMMON SENSE.

Samuel Adams:
The Rights of the Colonists,” which he wrote in 1772, he said:
“The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty...The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.”
After signing the Declaration of Independence, he proclaimed:

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come.

Let us not forget Daniel webster As evidenced in his textbook, “History of the United States, published in 1832, he believed that Christianity and government could not and should not be separated:

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person, a brother or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."
He is also quoted as saying:

"Every civil government is based upon some religion or philosophy of life. Education in a nation will propagate the religion of that nation. In America, the foundational religion was Christianity. And it was sown in the hearts of Americans through the home and private and public schools for centuries. Our liberty, growth, and prosperity was the result of a Biblical philosophy of life. Our continued freedom and success is dependent on our educating the youth of America in the principles of Christianity."

Now.... I could go on and on.... but the fact remains that I already said this issue is far too passionate to try and argue on a forum.

What is the history of the word AMENdment?

[okfireman]

Oh and after re-reading your post on page two, you did some selective editing of the Declaration of Independence........Our Declaration of Independence says that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This says abolutely NOTHING about Christianity. it actually reads:
WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to
which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness now if 51 of the 55 fore fathers were of christian beliefs whose God do you presume they were talking about? If you want proof look no further than these facts:

History tells us, that the Founding Fathers Made certain, not to endorse any denomination of religion over another. The founders of our nation, made it clear that the principles upon which this Nation was built, are based upon the Bible.

The Declaration of Independence, signed by the delegates to the Continental Congress, on July 4, 1776, stated that,

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...."

Our Declaration of Independence, shows and acknowledges that mankind is created and that the Creator God bestows the rights. This means, that no man can take them away, and that government, instituted by God, is to protect those rights. Government cannot deprive a person of those rights absent due process of law. Thus, God gave mankind free will, and a function of government is to protect the electorates exercise of free will.

A day of fasting and prayer was called upon by The Continental Congress. The colonist, looked to God to give guidance and direction as to whether they should secede from England before the representatives to the Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence?

In 1777, during the Revolutionary War. The First Continental Congress called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots" and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Bibles for the people. Many do not know that the Continental Congress began its sessions with prayer, a practice that is still, (For the Moment) followed by both houses of congress even today? Not very pratical for people not wanting this nation founded on christian beliefs
For several years the colonies wrote many documents prior to the United States Constitution. The colonies had written documents that established government and citizen's rights under God's authority. Without a doubt these early American documents show they were written with Biblical principles. Legal documents that were used to form the states, were written with words that had a Christian meaning behind them. The colonists understood the existence and importance of God The Creator.

One can see the colonies used in the constitutions, legal documents and forming of the first thirteen states.

Wording Referring To, Our Creator !

One God in South Carolina and Connecticut; Almighty in North Carolina, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Vermont; in Massachusetts. God was called, the Supreme Being, the Creator, Good, and the Great Legislator of the Universe; He was called the Governor of the Universe in Pennsylvania, and Vermont; and the inspirer of the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments in South Carolina and Pennsylvania. His Divine Providence was recognized in New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts. In Connecticut he was called Savior and Lord.
Now the ball is in your court were in the constitution does it say I don't have as many rights as say a muslim or buddist or atheist? That is exactly what is going on....you say don't force a religion on somone like interuppting a graduation with prayer but what about the interupption of a class by a kid wearing the head covering of a burka? If it has been handed down for years that a kid cannot were a baseball cap to school because it is a distraction I ask of you how do burkas become any less of a distraction.

[GMThunder]

2003-SEP-24: Ten Commandments poll: A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll was conducted during the week of SEP-24. Results were released on about AUG-28. It found that 77% of the 1,009 subjects polled disapproved of the decision by the U.S. District Court to have the Ten Commandments monument removed from the rotunda of the Alabama Justice Building. 3 The margin of error was approximately 3.2 percentage points. That is, if the poll were repeated twenty times, that nineteen results would be within 3.2 percentage points of 77%.
2003-SEP-29: Church-state separation poll: A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll was conducted on SEP-19 to 21. Results were released on SEP-29. It was a time of heightened concern across the U.S. about church-state separation issues. In the preceding weeks there were many demonstrations concerning the Alabama monument.
Findings include:

Question.......................................... ...................Approve Disapprove No response
The inscription "In God we Trust" on U.S. Coins.............90%..........8%................. ......2%
Non-denominational prayer at public school ceremonies...78%..........21%..................... 1%
Monument of the Ten Commandments in a public area.....70%..........29%.....................1%
Monument of the Qur'an in a public area.......................33%..........64%....... ..............3%
Federal funds for social programs run by Christian
organizations..................................... ......................64%..........34%............ .........2%
Federal funds for social programs run by Islamic
organizations..................................... ......................41% ..........56%.....................3%


The precise meaning of the term "non-denominational prayer" in the second question might have been unclear to some participants. Some might interpret the phrase as referring to a general theistic prayer to God that is acceptable to Baha'i's Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and other theists. Others might interpret it as referring to a generic Christian prayer that is acceptable to members of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant denominations.

The precise meaning of the term "public area" may have also confused some participants. Some might interpret the term as referring to a government location, such as a federal, state or municipal park; a government office building, a public school, etc. Others might have interpreted it more generally to include any place where the public can freely gather, such as church grounds, private parks, sides of roads, etc.


Ok..... "Polls" are just too easy to tear apart so I'll pass on these. It's a waste of my time.

[GMThunder]

OKfireman...... You're going to believe what you want to believe but you still have failed to provide any proof to my original question. I'm not going to reply to a copy and paste project from some Pro-Christian website. Let me know when you can find TRUE references to the evidence I requested. Not speculation and reaching arguments without merit.


Now the ball is in your court were in the constitution does it say I don't have as many rights as say a muslim or buddist or atheist? That is exactly what is going on....you say don't force a religion on somone like interuppting a graduation with prayer but what about the interupption of a class by a kid wearing the head covering of a burka? If it has been handed down for years that a kid cannot were a baseball cap to school because it is a distraction I ask of you how do burkas become any less of a distraction.

This is a really reaching comparison...I'm sorry but a group of kids interrupting a commencement ceremony and a kid in a classroom in islamic dress are not the same thing. To the less wordly it MIGHT cause a distraction mostly by those that have been taught intollerance but give me a break. Kids can wear visible crosses can they not? Which is the first way I can think of in which a Christian can express himself. LOL....How are your religious rights compromised by someone NOT being able to wear a baseball cap? The damn things ARE a distraction.... kids knock them off of other kids heads, throw them across the room, etc etc.

Seriously man can you really provide evidence of REAL persecution. Ya know.... like owning slaves and wiping out an entire race of people such as indians? Suppression of rights of americans because they are of a different race.... ya know.... that kind of stuff.


Edited to add:

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to
which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

Ok those are pretty ambiguous to me.... where does it say anything about christianity. If they were so proud why are the terms so ambiguous and Christian scripture or reference left out completely?

[okfireman]

GMT why must you try and vituperate everything I say. I have not once said anything to derogate your position. You do not know who I am or what my level of education is. So before you continue to try and belittle me by saying things like:
To the less wordly it MIGHT cause a distraction mostly by those that have been taught intollerance but give me a break.
Think before you speak you never what the other person might be able to offer.

How are your religious rights compromised by someone NOT being able to wear a baseball cap? The damn things ARE a distraction.... kids knock them off of other kids heads, throw them across the room, etc etc.

LOL...Just as you have not read or listened to any of my previous posts I was not saying a kid wearing a baseball cap was in any way comprimising to my religous beliefs. I was however using a baseball caps distraction as an allegory of a burkas distraction. Does that make sense to you? Do you know what an allegory is?

I'm not going to reply to a copy and paste project from some Pro-Christian website.

Actually these are tidbits of information I compiled for a research paper I did for a political science class on this very topic.

Seriously man can you really provide evidence of REAL persecution. Ya know.... like owning slaves and wiping out an entire race of people such as indians? Suppression of rights of americans because they are of a different race.... ya know.... that kind of stuff.

Now who is being intolerant.

The fact that the original Continental Congress began its sessions with prayer and that it is a tradition carried on in both houses of congress even today does not seem very ambigous to me.

You have not managed to provide any proof that the founding fathers were not building a christian faith based government. I stated in the last few posts you have our vehemence for this topic....... So lets just leave it at we agree to disagree.

[NikatKimber]

This is a country based upon the freedom of religion. That is what the founders wanted, for reasons stated in previous posts. Rulers in the past have used religion as a method of controlling the people. The founders did not want this to happen. I do think that our laws in this country were by and large based upon Christian principles.
I love seeing the debate on here. It forces both sides to study their views.

[kgull85]

What I originally was trying to say is that if my kids schools want to teach about evolution, Islamic cultures, alternative lifestyles, etc. they had better give equal time to the christian beliefs I hold. For example: if it is okay for a muslim to wear a burka to school then it should also be okay for my son or daughters to bring a bible to school or bless their food before they eat.

I don't necissarily see the similarity in wearing a burka and blessing your food, but you are correct that your child should be able to do those things in school.

However when my son had his bible out reading it to himself not witnessing to anyone else he was sent to the office and I was called stating that he was not allowed to have a book of that nature at school. Conversley that year they had to read excerpts from the Koran, in their world cultures class.

Was your son reading silently or out loud? Was he doing that instead of doing something else he was supposed to be doing? (not making accusations, just asking) If he was reading during freetime/lunch/recess/"some time not causing a distraction" then he has every right to read the Bible at school. The school saying that a Bible isn't allowed at school is complete bullshit.

[NikatKimber]

Was your son reading silently or out loud? Was he doing that instead of doing something else he was supposed to be doing? (not making accusations, just asking) If he was reading during freetime/lunch/recess/"some time not causing a distraction" then he has every right to read the Bible at school. The school saying that a Bible isn't allowed at school is complete bullshit.
I don't think it should matter whether it was out loud or not, if he was doing it during free time.

[GMThunder]

You do not know who I am or what my level of education is. So before you continue to try and belittle me by saying things like:


Not attacking your person nor am I belittling YOU, and you're right I don't know you. However it is a fact that people that do not get around much or that are intolerant of various cultures are more likely to get "distracted" by someone's dress. In a bigger population with more cultures it's not a big deal. That's all I meant.

Actually these are tidbits of information I compiled for a research paper I did for a political science class on this very topic.

and what were the sources for these tidbits?

Think before you speak you never what the other person might be able to offer.

Sorry but you lost me on post #13.... I see that all you may offer is a hard-lined christian view with little if any tolerance. Therefore, you have nothing to offer me. I've come too far with my education to regress to a lower level of tolerance.

Now who is being intolerant.


Don't know what you mean here, please explain.

You have not managed to provide any proof that the founding fathers were not building a christian faith based government.

That's not what I said NOR am I out to prove. My problem was with this statement....

When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

If this WERE true it would be written clearly. These men were not out to push Christianity. In fact they were tired of ANYTHING being pushed upon them so the language is plastic for a reason, it's not like they forgot..... it was NOT THERE for a reason. Man can practice whatever he wants and will be free from persecution. The state will not invoke it powers to influence it's citizens to worship anything. Sound like promoting christianity? Congress may say a prayer but does it matter if one does or does not? Can a Jewish or muslim congressmember pray on his own? in his own way? Where does it say that you must follow a chrisitian god? That's all I'm asking.....Where does it quote the bible? Not a hint or speculation of source but a direct quote..... You can't provide the evidence I request because it's not there.

[okfireman]

kgull85: It was while they had free reading time once and at lunch recess the second both not reading out loud. Needless to say there was not a third time. I wrote letters of discern to the superintendent of schools as well as principal and teacher of the school. We were about to move and instead of keeping the kids in the same school my grandfather, mother, aunts, uncles, numerous cousins as well as myself went to we moved to another school district.
GMT oh GMT LOL... you have made me weary with this debate.:selfangel
However it is a fact that people that do not get around much or that are intolerant of various cultures are more likely to get "distracted" by someone's dress.
When you are a child in school wether it be elementary, secondary or high school it would be distracting. Has nothing to do with them getting around much.

and what were the sources for these tidbits?

Most of it came from reading books on the people quoted. As I said I studied Thomas Paine full knowing he had radical religous beliefs as well as all of the other founding fathers. Both sides were researched.

Sorry but you lost me on post #13.... I see that all you may offer is a hard-lined christian view with little if any tolerance. Therefore, you have nothing to offer me. I've come too far with my education to regress to a lower level of tolerance.

Spoken in the most irony of this topic yet and quite intolerant. All I was saying is that you never know when our paths may cross and you never know if the person helping you may be the same person you were fighting with on here the day before. But I can debate a hot topic without holding a grudge. I do not dislike you for your opinion, I just choose to disagree with it.

If you do not mind me asking. So of what belief are you? If you look back I never tried to impose any ultra hard-line christian view on you. But instead wrote my opinion of what I feel made this country great. We both could have walked away from the computer and shopped for guns or posted on other topics at anytime. Just as when my kids bless there food before they eat could anyone who doesn't agree with it turn there head. All I am saying is that I will stand up for my right to pray and worship as hard as any atheist tries to squash it. I never even said of what christian religion I was.
If I remember correctly the 1st amendment says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
How do you then decide that I should not be able to pray in school or at a public function.

I do not have a problem sharing or giving equal time to muslim, jewish, buhddist, wiccan or any other religon time to pray at said places. I do however have a problem not being allowed to do so because it may insult one out of fifty people. If that seems intolerate then so be it.

[GMThunder]

When you are a child in school wether it be elementary, secondary or high school it would be distracting. Has nothing to do with them getting around much.

It would be if they were never exposed to other culture but kids in a more diverse culture wouldn't be distracted by thing they see constantly or have been exposed to.

Spoken in the most irony of this topic yet and quite intolerant. All I was saying is that you never know when our paths may cross and you never know if the person helping you may be the same person you were fighting with on here the day before. But I can debate a hot topic without holding a grudge. I do not dislike you for your opinion, I just choose to disagree with it.

I am only intolerant of those that have a certain type of disposition. We are in discussion and that's where I leave it, meaning I don't take this personally, anyone that has met me knows this. However the fact remains that your post was pretty straight-forward about how you feel and your level of intolerance. From this, I feel I have nothing to learn from you in this discussion whatsoever. Nothing personal.

How do you then decide that I should not be able to pray in school or at a public function.


What does the first part of what you highlighted say? I'm not against a child carrying a bible, koran, etc to school as long as he keeps it to himself. I'm not against a child wearing symbols of his religion. However, I don't want to be preached to at a school function such as commencement. I don't want hear any prayer from any religion. They may do so as they please before or after but let those that want to get on with their life, graduate in peace.

[kgull85]

I do not have a problem sharing or giving equal time to muslim, jewish, buhddist, wiccan or any other religon time to pray at said places. I do however have a problem not being allowed to do so because it may insult one out of fifty people. If that seems intolerate then so be it.

There is a distinct difference between someone just saying a prayer (like the students did) and a prayer being part of the actual ceremony. You do have the right to pray in public and so did the students, I don't recall anyone saying you couldn't (although I did skip a few of the long posts :fallangel )

And it is not feasible to give every possible religion (or lack thereof) a chance to say a prayer at events like that, everyone already thinks they are too long. You say you wouldn't have a problem sharing time with other religions, but would you be ok with a devil worshiper saying a prayer to satin (do devil worshipers pray? and yes I know it's an extreme example) at your child's graduation ceremony?

[okfireman]

Lets just leave it at we agree to disagree. This topic could go to 90 pages and the "what ifs" and innuendo's would still fly back and forth. I think the bottom line is I am of one opinion and yours are of another. Its been a good debate but I don't feel the need to spend anymore time beating a dead horse. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. I hope life gives you all you deserve.:respect:

[8Cyl Firebird]

Man, You guys are making my head hurt hah. Here you want something to really debate:

Why is my car only getting 2.5 volts to the fuel pump. SO far I have traced it under the dash, but then lost it in that mess. I Can't find the relay so I can't test that. Truly a tough topic. Makes this other stuff look like kids stuff! Goodluck.

[J.P.]

I'm hungry...I mean really starvin!
I think I'll head to El Rio Verde or Costa Azul.....

[Mack45]

I just hope that there will be no hard feelings, sometimes I would rather have them be mad at me and lock this type of thread, than have them blow up at each other and be mad at each other.

8cyl, can you disconnect the fuel pump? If so does the voltage come up when you do? On some cars the relays are under a cover under the hood.

[Mack45]

I'm starvin' too. I just came in from mowing. The wife is sick, she caught the crud that I had last weekend. I guess I'll just have to raid the fridge. HMMM hot links sound good.

[okfireman]

No hard feelings here. I hope GMT doesn't have any either. Everyone can't agree all of the time.

What year and type car is it 8cylfirebird. If it is very late model relay should be under the hood. If you can't figure it out go search at chevytalk.com They have answers for every kind of Chevy car problem there. If It is a GM built car just search the appropriate body style. I.E. firebird/camaro. I am building a 1955 Chevy with a 900 h.p. naturally aspirated 598 big block chevy. That website has helped me in times of uncertainity.

[GMThunder]

Guys, I don't take things on the internet personally.... no worries.

[8Cyl Firebird]

Yeh. Foudn and replaced the relay...No help there. I'll make a new thread about it in the main section see if anyone has any tips.

[NikatKimber]

I have really been amazed at the level of civility maintained on this forum even on very hot passionate topics. The more I see debates like this one the more respect I have for those that take the time to make posts on it.
I happen to agree for the most part with OKFireman, but I would still love to meet both GMT and KGull personally. Have really enjoyed their thoughts on different subjects.
Brent

[J.P.]

I happen to agree for the most part with OKFireman, but I would still love to meet both GMT and KGull personally.

GMT is really a laid back guy in real life and definitely an intelligent man.
That's one reason I can't understand his penchant for dressing in women's clothing on the weekends. :nolike:

[GMThunder]

That's one reason I can't understand his penchant for dressing in women's clothing on the weekends

Don't laugh. It pays the bills.

[GMThunder]

Duplicate post.

[J.P.]

No problem.
when i feel good about something I like to say it twice. :)

[GMThunder]

No problem.
when i feel good about something I like to say it twice. :)

Just make sure you keep bringing plenty of 1's.

[NikatKimber]

Hey suite! 300 posts! Do I have a problem?
LOL
:hyper: :hyper: :hyper: