Just saw something on TV, have a question..

[walpur6isknight]

Okay, I was just watching something on A&E about "bounty hunters". Evidently these guys (two seperated groups of bounty hunters, two seperate incidents) are potentially a danger to law abiding citizens. In one account they shot some guy (mistaken identity situation) and another incident they kicked in the wrong door (miss read the address from my understanding).
I know the chances of this are probably 1 in a million.It makes you wonder...... in a situation like this what kind of criminal liability would you bear by defending yourself? I don't know how any of you feel about this, but if anyone kicks my door in I'm giving out Gold Dots in 10mm flavor.

[pete156]

Let's say for instance it was the police instead that knocked in the wrong door, would it really matter if you were right or wrong once you were dead on the floor? Sure, my family might be able to sue if they weren't killed in the event also, but how does that help me.

There no winning for you either way even if you are a lawful citizen who thinks it's a home invasion, at least I don't see how. You had just better hope the you're not the one in a million.

[bratch]

I'd almost bet money that legally you would be safe defending yourself if bounty hunters kicked in your door. If its the Police and they announce themselves before entering probably not.

You might stand a chance against a couple bounty hunters against a SWAT team your toast.

[Michael Brown]

I'd almost bet money that legally you would be safe defending yourself if bounty hunters kicked in your door. If its the Police and they announce themselves before entering probably not.

You might stand a chance against a couple bounty hunters against a SWAT team your toast.

This is as good a summation as any.

Michael Brown

[NikatKimber]

Slightly off topic here, but related.
Say a LEO knocks on your door, and requests entrance. There is no pursuit, or extenuating circumstances (some one crying for help or such). You are a law abiding, peaceful citizen. You ask for warrant or court order, and they have none. You then politely tell the LEO that they do not have the authority to demand entrance, yet the LEO persists. What do you do then?
I have heard, from a lawyer, that you allow them to come in, do what they came to do, and sue.
As a homeschooler, there are documented cases of this happening. The LEO is representing the DHS (dept of human services) and does not know that a DHS social worker can NOT demand entry to a home without a Warrant or Court Order, and thus has demanded entry to a home. This has happened more than once. Not to my family...
I ask, because I have a CCW. How do I handle such a situation? Where LEO have illegally entered my home. Overzealous DHS social workers will do this on anonymous tips. They have also strip searched children looking for evidence of alleged physical abuse (aka spanking in some situations). I don't know if I could physically restrain myself in such a scenario. Just a note, I do not believe the LEO themselves have ever caused a problem other than demanding entrance.
Brent

[Michael Brown]

Slightly off topic here, but related.
Say a LEO knocks on your door, and requests entrance. There is no pursuit, or extenuating circumstances (some one crying for help or such). You are a law abiding, peaceful citizen. You ask for warrant or court order, and they have none. You then politely tell the LEO that they do not have the authority to demand entrance, yet the LEO persists. What do you do then?
I have heard, from a lawyer, that you allow them to come in, do what they came to do, and sue.
As a homeschooler, there are documented cases of this happening. The LEO is representing the DHS (dept of human services) and does not know that a DHS social worker can NOT demand entry to a home without a Warrant or Court Order, and thus has demanded entry to a home. This has happened more than once. Not to my family...
I ask, because I have a CCW. How do I handle such a situation? Where LEO have illegally entered my home. Overzealous DHS social workers will do this on anonymous tips. They have also strip searched children looking for evidence of alleged physical abuse (aka spanking in some situations). I don't know if I could physically restrain myself in such a scenario. Just a note, I do not believe the LEO themselves have ever caused a problem other than demanding entrance.
Brent

This is a very difficult situation with a very simple solution.

Obviously obstructing an officer by physically denying entrance to your home is a problem because they may have the exigent circumstances or authority but not make you aware of it for investigative purposes.

The entry is rarely "illegal". It is more likely inadmissable than illegal. Courts do not consider things like embarrassment and inconvenience as damages in 4th amendment cases.

If an officer is acting on a tip from a DHS worker (truthful or not) the search is not illegal. If an officer acts in good faith on a tip he has no access to, the officer is protected from civil action as long as the action was reasonable and it is very rare that attempting to protect a child is considered unreasonable.

DHS may or may not be liable depending on the circumstances, however the DHS workers I have dealt with (a lot of them as I worked in the Family Violence unit for a while) have always been reasonable. DHS' goal is always re-uniting the family despite what some may think.

Either way, the smart action is not to physically deny them. You can deny permission but don't do anything else.

The lawyer you spoke to gave sound advice.

As far as "strip searching" goes, its a necessary act. How else do you find the evidence of abuse.

The protection of the child is the first priority. Everything else comes in a distant second.

The way I look at it is, if someone suspects my child has been abused, my response is "Come check." They will see nothing but a well-kept home with plenty of food, running water, heat/air, and electricity.

If they see abuse that I haven't seen, I will be glad that someone was more observant than I was because my child's safety is the most important thing in the world to me.

We deal with revenge tips on occasion and usually what happens is we see there's no problem, the world goes on as usual, and we can give less regard to future revenge tips at that particular home.

The horror stories of kids with no injuries being taken from their kind, loving families by stormtroopers are pure myth. Being forced to deal with these situations on a regular basis has led me to become extremely skeptical of the stories where someone knows someone whose kids were taken away for nothing.

99.99% of the time the parents who"did nothing" probably didn't tell you the whole story. Contrary to popular belief, spanking is not illegal and I have never heard a DHS worker discourage spanking.

Spanking is fine. Whipping a child with an electrical cord is not.

Michael Brown

[Glock 'em down]

:thumb: Amen, brother! :respect:

[J.P.]

The horror stories of kids with no injuries being taken from their kind, loving families by stormtroopers are pure myth.


I believe that.
In fact,there are cases that I am very familiar with where even in the face of abuse,DHS will not take the kids. :nolike:

Still,having dealt with DHS constantly for years,I can say without hesitation that the people i've dealt with are rude,arrogant,and clueless.
This may or may not be representative of the entire organization.

[Michael Brown]

I believe that.
In fact,there are cases that I am very familiar with where even in the face of abuse,DHS will not take the kids. :nolike:

Still,having dealt with DHS constantly for years,I can say without hesitation that the people i've dealt with are rude,arrogant,and clueless.
This may or may not be representative of the entire organization.

This is FAR more likely.

Unfortunate but more likely.

Michael Brown

[pete156]

98% of the DHS workers can KISS MY @ss. It is an almost completely worthless dept. that takes kids when they shouldn't and don't when they should. The dept. is being investigated (according to 1170 KFAQ) for having a 51% rise in children being removed from the home in, I believe, the last 4-5yrs. It's pretty obvious that something is really wrong with the DHS dept. in Tulsa at least.

I was standing right there when my sister was verbally abused and threatened to have her boy taken away cause he ended up with a hickey type mark on his butt where he clenched up while being given a swat. That's not counting the 3 DHS workers that were customers of ours and ended up going up the river for embezzelment because they were allowing family members of their's to receive benefits that they weren't actually entitled to.

Most think they're God and attempt to prove it to everyone else.

[burner]

I can say without hesitation that the people i've dealt with are rude,arrogant,and clueless.

+1000000

[SilverPanda]

ah darn it...missed the show!

[Michael Brown]

98% of the DHS workers can KISS MY @ss. It is an almost completely worthless dept. that takes kids when they shouldn't and don't when they should. The dept. is being investigated (according to 1170 KFAQ) for having a 51% rise in children being removed from the home in, I believe, the last 4-5yrs. It's pretty obvious that something is really wrong with the DHS dept. in Tulsa at least.

I was standing right there when my sister was verbally abused and threatened to have her boy taken away cause he ended up with a hickey type mark on his butt where he clenched up while being given a swat. That's not counting the 3 DHS workers that were customers of ours and ended up going up the river for embezzelment because they were allowing family members of their's to receive benefits that they weren't actually entitled to.

Most think they're God and attempt to prove it to everyone else.

Pete, C'mon.

You've had problems with three or four DHS workers and you generalize about 98% of the agency?

You're a far more reasonable dude than that.

Michael Brown

[pete156]

I'm a reasonable person that easily see's both sides of most issues, but this one just gets me.

When I've had dealings (not within my family except for the one I stated above) personally and from a business standpoint with probably 15 or so that work in the dept and 14 of them were pompous god wanna be's then I can easily say that I don't think I just happened to have a bad run. Surely I couldn't have spoke/worked with that many bad apples and the rest are peachy.

To be perfectly honest, DHS/Social Workers & IRS agents are the biggest pains in the butt I've ever dealt with. The only difference is that the IRS can squeeze your balls a little harder since they can fark with your money. ;)

[Chuck S]

I'm a reasonable person that easily see's both sides of most issues, but this one just gets me.

When I've had dealings (not within my family except for the one I stated above) personally and from a business standpoint with probably 15 or so that work in the dept and 14 of them were pompous god wanna be's then I can easily say that I don't think I just happened to have a bad run. Surely I couldn't have spoke/worked with that many bad apples and the rest are peachy.

To be perfectly honest, DHS/Social Workers & IRS agents are the biggest pains in the butt I've ever dealt with. The only difference is that the IRS can squeeze your balls a little harder since the can fark with your money. ;)

Its probably a power thing. Some people cannot handle it properly. It goes right to their heads.

[NikatKimber]

I was not meaning to start a bashing thread, just a serious question for a situation that has a arisen in the homeschool world. I do not have a completely bad view on DHS, my parents adopted my youngest brother, and the lady working with us was caring. When we first started the process, the worker we had was not cooperative at all, seemed to be working against us b/c there were already 5 children in the family. I can provide documentation on cases were the officer acted illegally. I do think that the lawyers' advice was sound, I was just wondering if there was anything you could add since I have a CCW, and that advise was assuming none. I was talking about ANONYMOUS tips. If someone feels strongly enough about something to put their name and contact info behind it, so be it. But an anonymous tip is nothing to force entry into the home over. That lawyer also recommended having a video or tape recorder near the door, and notifying the officer of such, and call the lawyer, and ask the officer to speak with him. Every time the officer has agreed to talk to the lawyer, they have backed down.
The lawyer I speak of is Michael Farris, and was the head of HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association).
I have my own views on the DHS, and the IRS, and the BATF, and the etc etc etc etc.... But that is neither here nor there, and not the subject of question.
Thanks for your input MB!
Brent

[GMThunder]

I believe that.
In fact,there are cases that I am very familiar with where even in the face of abuse,DHS will not take the kids. :nolike:

Still,having dealt with DHS constantly for years,I can say without hesitation that the people i've dealt with are rude,arrogant,and clueless.
This may or may not be representative of the entire organization.

I've shadowed in an ER a few years ago and a 2 yr old kid came in.....with a broken arm and bruises. DHS had been warned repeatedly about the situation and did little because the kid had been in the ER before. Made you sick to your stomach.

[walpur6isknight]

I look at it like this, if it is the REAL police, I have no trouble letting them in and helping them in any way I can (provided they have the proper credentials). I darn sure don't have anything to hide. I had a cop knock on my door a long time ago. evidently he was looking for a "indian guy with long hair".

[pete156]

What bothers me is the fact that you keep reading stories from across the country of BG's announcing themselves as police. That scares the crap out of me cause the wife would be someone who would just open the door if they said that without first making them show ID.

I used to, but don't open the door anymore to answer it if it's someone I don't recognize. They'll have to state their business through the closed door and then I might think about opening it, but not without my pisol ready.

[skyydiver]

98% of the DHS workers can KISS MY @ss. It is an almost completely worthless dept. that takes kids when they shouldn't and don't when they should. The dept. is being investigated (according to 1170 KFAQ) for having a 51% rise in children being removed from the home in, I believe, the last 4-5yrs. It's pretty obvious that something is really wrong with the DHS dept. in Tulsa at least.

I was standing right there when my sister was verbally abused and threatened to have her boy taken away cause he ended up with a hickey type mark on his butt where he clenched up while being given a swat. That's not counting the 3 DHS workers that were customers of ours and ended up going up the river for embezzelment because they were allowing family members of their's to receive benefits that they weren't actually entitled to.

Most think they're God and attempt to prove it to everyone else.

Good thing the IT guys are in the 2%. I only like Dill, and that offer sounds like some sweet pickle.

[USDefender]

Okay, I was just watching something on A&E about "bounty hunters". Evidently these guys (two seperated groups of bounty hunters, two seperate incidents) are potentially a danger to law abiding citizens. In one account they shot some guy (mistaken identity situation) and another incident they kicked in the wrong door (miss read the address from my understanding).
I know the chances of this are probably 1 in a million.It makes you wonder...... in a situation like this what kind of criminal liability would you bear by defending yourself? I don't know how any of you feel about this, but if anyone kicks my door in I'm giving out Gold Dots in 10mm flavor.

Not sure about the program you were watching, but this happened to someone, a few years ago, where the legit bounty-hunters were using their status a legit bounty hunters to rob someone.

They ended up killing someone in the home they were 'invading' under a legal pretext.

I am a law-abiding citizen.

If I'm at home, and someone begins to beat on my door with the obvious intent to open it without my consent & enter my 'castle', I will begin shooting when I feel the moment is appropriate.

If the person is wise enough to stop when I yell & tell him to, he may live through the incident. If not, he's fair game.

'If you're going to break into someone's residence, you had better be sure', is all I've got to say about that.