Is Your Gun a Weapon or a Talisman?

[Michael Brown]

It is my belief that 99% of people who carry guns are not prepared to survive a violent assault (including police officers). While this may offend a lot of carriers, I feel its important to address.

So I ask, is your gun truly a weapon to you or a talisman that will hopefully ward off those who will bring you harm?

To answer this question properly, I propose a series of ten questions with sub-questions. They are not all-encompassing but should give you some ideas to ponder if you are really interested in self-defense and not just busting caps (as fun as that is). There are other issues such as first aid and other issues, but I think this list does a pretty good job questioning the basics of your plan.

1) Do you train realistically with the gun and gear you actually carry with the clothes you actually wear? What does "realistic" mean to you?

2) Will your gear hold up under the stress of a physical encounter? How do you know?

3) Do you regularly train against a live, resisting opponent?

4) Could you physically hold up against an all-out assault from a determined adversary? How do you know?

5) Do you actively train your mind for violent conflict? How?

6) Do you carry less-lethal options when you carry your gun? Have you practiced regularly with them?

7) Do you EVER go anywhere unarmed where you are not legally prohibited from doing so?

8) Have you assessed how long it would take you to access your weapons from any point in your home? Have you checked it against entry from various points in your home?

9) If you have spouses/significant others or children, have you trained them in how to respond if it all goes down? Would they replicate this behavior if you asked them to do it RIGHT THIS MINUTE?

10) Do you become task-fixated in public places? Balancing the check book in the parking lot? Talking on the cell phone while walking across the parking lot? Be honest with yourself.

It doesn't matter if you do all of these things or none of these things. What is important is that you understand where you stand and decide what you want to be.

Nothing we write on a keyboard will save us, but we do want people to start thinking.

Michael Brown

[MDT]

Mike,

An excellent post. Very sobering and kind of what I've been thinking of for a while (per our conversation last PM).

Whlie we all enjoy the shooting sports-- shooting paper targets and what not, I am not sure about the overall mindset. I often wonder about my mindset. I think that if my family is threatened, the papa bear in me would show up. I don't know if my "papa bear" is bad enough to respond to these guys that want to whack you on the head. These guys are DETERMINED.

Upon answering your questions, I find my preparation lacking......

[hubmonkey]

I don't think there is any way anyone can say they are Truely ready for anything. You can only train and build confidence in yourself and hope you can do the right thing when faced with the danger.

You don't know how you are going to react until you are in that situation.

Hub

[Michael Brown]

"You don't know how you are going to react until you are in that situation."

We never know.

However we substantially cut down the odds if we train properly.

As an aside that will hopefully relate what I'm talking about:

How many times do you believe a major-league baseball player has practiced his swing before he felt it was reliable? I'd say its in the millions. If you don't practice hard, you can't expect that you will rise to the occasion. You will more than likely default to your level of training.

A friend of mine and a popular law enforcement trainer once said that he saw Mark McGuire at a San Diego Chargers game, back when Big Mac was playing for the A's. He approached him and asked him the very question I listed above. Mcguire told him "I was just hitting home runs in my head until you came over and bothered me."

That should give everyone some kind of idea of the level of dedication it takes to make a technique reliable under extremely stressful conditions.

Now lets spin it to the criminal side of things.

A $30 per day crack cocaine habit is pretty common among addicts and there are thousands of them in Tulsa alone. In order to obtain that $30 per day, a crackhead must likely do something criminal, whether that be stealing car stereos, breaking into parking meters, or knocking people over the head.

If the crackhead has chosen the "knocking people over the head" route, that means he probably has to do it at least three times a week just to support his habit. In my book, this makes him an expert if he's done it for more than a couple months.

How many of us, who are not in a profession of arms, get into a fight more than once a year? My guess is none since most of the people here are good folks. If I had to bet, I'd say 99% of folks here haven't been in a fist-fight since high school.

This is a good thing. That is until someone targets you. Then you will wish you had that crackhead's experience.

Thus the only option to cut down the odds for the good folks is hard, realistic training on a regular and on-going basis.

No one says you HAVE TO have that level of dedication. I just feel that people should not delude themselves into thinking they are ready for a violent confrontation just because they've got a permit, a nice holster and a bunch of nice blasters.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I just feel that people should not delude themselves into thinking they are ready for a violent confrontation just because they've got a permit, a nice holster and a bunch of nice blasters.

Michael Brown

:werd:

What Micheal says is true.
When the adrenaline starts to flow,reason,critical thinking,and muscle control can go south.
If you train regularly,you (usually)do as you train by default.

If you do not train,what happens?

[GMThunder]

My family members (LE, FBI, DEA ) have taught me a thing or two about situational awareness of which I TRY to pass on to my g/f and friends. I don't train near as much as I want to but I'm extremely limited of what I can carry right now. I'm a stone's throw from the OU campus of which I spend a good amount of time, and I work in a bar. In which it KILLS me that I can't carry. Had a friend who was a bar owner that was killed in North Tulsa awhile back. Even when I was bartending at the Winner's Circle in Tulsa (now Fishbonz) I had a knife pulled on me twice and a gun once. All for a bar tab or fighting of the #$%ing pool tables. Therefore I do think about many of the aspects that which Michael mentioned (excellent list IMHO) or at least try to. Some good points in this thread for sure.

[J.P.]

My family members (LE, FBI, DEA ) have taught me a thing or two about situational awareness of which I TRY to pass on to my g/f and friends. I don't train near as much as I want to but I'm extremely limited of what I can carry right now. I'm a stone's throw from the OU campus of which I spend a good amount of time, and I work in a bar. In which it KILLS me that I can't carry. Had a friend who was a bar owner that was killed in North Tulsa awhile back. Even when I was bartending at the Winner's Circle in Tulsa (now Fishbonz) I had a knife pulled on me twice and a gun once. All for a bar tab or fighting of the #$%ing pool tables. Therefore I do think about many of the aspects that which Michael mentioned (excellent list IMHO) or at least try to. Some good points in this thread for sure.

*hi-jack*
Is it illegal for an employee to carry in a bar?

[Michael Brown]

Nope. Just to drink but I imagine no major bar is going to allow its employees to carry.

Even if you can't carry a firearm, there are plenty of excellent weapon choices that are not illegal on college campuses or in bars.

I think a firearm is an excellent choice but by far not the only choice. Improvised weapons should be high on everyone's list who can't carry.

My friend, Jerry Van Cook, told me he lets "the power of Christ" protect him when he flies and can't carry. Knowing Jerry I was little suprised until he showed me an 18 inch stainless steel crucifix that clearly became a makeshift axe. I would rather have his "power of Christ" than a Spyderco any day.

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

So technically it is legal for me to carry in a bar if I'm an employee??

[J.P.]

I'm not 100% sure.
the only thing i could find was "owner or proprietor"

[Michael Brown]

I'd guess that an employee could carry if specifically authorized by the owner. I would think that an employee would be like a designee.

However I'm no lawyer and not really qualified to interpret the law in another jurisdiction, so my best advice would be to consult the district attorney's office where you work,or better yet have your boss do it.

I would say it would be illegal to simply carry based on your permit without some sort of authorization from the owner.

Either way, let's get this thread back on track. J.P. :gun1:

Michael Brown

[GMThunder]

Well I know my current employer wouldn't allow it but it would be really handy to know in the future. Oh well. :D

Michael what is your best suggestion to get those whom are a little stubborn to listen to you about awareness? When I remind my g/f to do things, like not sleeping with the windows open, have someone walk her to her car after her shift (waitress) etc she'll agree and say ya I should really do that. However she doesn't go about anything with forethought. What's the best way to teach someone this? Or rather instill some of thie aspects of awareness you have listed?

[okla-lawman]

It is not a talisman nor fashion statement for me. I have survived encounters on and off duty. Both armed and unarmed. I am still here not to talk about it.

[MDT]

O-L,

I think that you and others who have experienced encounters are the ones that the well-intentioned but uninitiated look to for advice/ feedback/ training. Again, while examining myself, I am not in LE (like you and Mike, and others), I don't shoot competitively (J.P., Eric, etc.). I'm an average joe who sees human depravity on a day-to-day basis and wants to take steps to protect me and my family from it.

If you are involved in a violwent encounter, no-one will say "that guy had a ultra-caliber, 1 lb Vanadium trigger, uber gripped, GlockaColtBeretta". What I want them to say is that guy handled himself smartly and he is still here to be with his grandkids.

This is why I try to listen and learn from those that have been there.

[Michael Brown]

"Michael what is your best suggestion to get those whom are a little stubborn to listen to you about awareness?"

For me, it took dogged persistance and irritation to get my wife on board. I just had to keep pestering and pestering and not giving up. Its gotten much easier since we've had a child and she realizes she's responsible for someone else.

For most, unfortunately, it takes an incident to get them a reality check.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

I believe that a person can never stop learning.
Truth be told,we could *all* benefit from taking some of Mike's classes.

Violent attacks are seldom static and we need to train in ways to efficiently deal with this.
I have trained in various forms of martial arts and at one time competed.
Most of this stylized 'training' had little benefit in any of the real world fights I have been involved in.
The one thing that I learned was how to control the adrenaline flow and channel it into productive,although anything can happen,this is why it's important to keep up your training,IMO.
That said,I do not train nearly enough anymore.

At the risk of another thread hi-jack,i would like to address another issue of preparedness.....Alcohol.
Usually the times/places that you are out drinking are the times when the criminal element is most prevalent.
I believe that drinking to excess is an extreme liability.
What kind of judgement are you going to have if you are intoxicated and who is going to believe your side of the story?
Just something else to consider.

[Michael Brown]

J.P.

Don't make me pull a Todd Beamer on your hi-jacking! :madbox:

Michael Brown :wink2:

[okla-lawman]

If you look at old west gunfighters, and look at the REAL facts it was often not the
fastest shot that won but the one who kept their cool. I have read some of the stuff from the Phd over at OU who has researched this extensively. He claims that Wild Bill Hickock was probably the deadlyest gunfighter. I remember read about a shootout he had in Springfield Mo., right down town. Apparently the other guy fired two or three rounds before Hitchcock killed him dead. He kept a cool head and had killed before.
Why was I researching this? It was over 20 years ago the first time I was forced save my life by firing rounds at somebody. I was fairly young at the time and luckily I did not hit him but I was still physically and emotionally ill for several weeks. I talked to many gun fight/combat survivors and found out what I went through was very normal. In fact most police officers involved in shooting quit law enforcement within one year.
So what does this have to do with training? It should be as realistic as possible. It you do nothing but stand there and punch holes in paper you are not really training to win.
If you are deploying a gun, knife, trash can lid whatever you have probably already made a mistake, tactically. So you will need to rely on your training to survive. While
you may not be going up against Wild Bill you may be up against some street kid/thug
that has no qualms about killing you. Most of us have been raised that thall shall not kll. That kid/thug may have not. He will be at the advantage psychologically. You will be amazed what is racing through your head as that gun comes on to target. This wil make you hesitate for a second, which is what gunfighters like wild Bill counted on.
So it is imperative that you train and train as thought your life depends on it. A
case in point I used to teach rape defense. I have since gave it up. We taught a very aggressive system. One of my exstudents was raped. I was amazed. She was one of my very toughest students. We had to calm her down cause she was hurting other students. What happened when it actually happened. She froze. After that I never taught anything with out dynamic training. It is as close as you can get to the real thing. If you choose to carry a gun you need to be prepared to use it. Not as a fashion statement, to be cool or whatever. When you train remenber two things
1) The people out there may be younger, better, faster whatever or someone who has been through it before. So train to live.
2) There are sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs in the world. Which are you going to be?

[MDT]

Good post...again, very sobering and learning from those that have been there is important. Thanks OLM.

[IDtheTarget]

"Damn you! Damn you and your kind!"

There I was, sitting all fat and happy in my belief that I was ready for anything, since I have an SDA license and carry a glock most places I go. Then you have to go and show me that I've been deluding myself for the past year. Now I'm going to have to figure out how to practice for the "guy standing next to me decides he wants my stuff" type scenarios. It also means that I have to come up with non-convenient but more realistic ways to carry my glock during the summer... *sigh*

[olyeller]

9) If you have spouses/significant others or children, have you trained them in how to respond if it all goes down? Would they replicate this behavior if you asked them to do it RIGHT THIS MINUTE?

this is a big deal; my wife knows that when I tell her to do something in public, she needs to react instantly and quickly, whether its take cover, run, or go get the shotgun and hide in the tub.

[JamesBell]

I am sincerely disappointed that I couldn't answer more of the questions in the way that they should be answered. I have had some great training and have had the fortune to talk with some people that I believe really know their stuff. And still, after reading this list, I know I'm not ready. So, it looks like its time to start preparing differently.

[Kai]

So Michael,

What is your recommendation or advice for those everyday-carriers who may be in need of some intense training and preperation to face these deadly scenarios? As much as i'd love to, I don't have the time to train everyday, or even every other day.

[Jerms]

training every day or every other day is important tho... even if it's just 30 minutes of thinking about it.. when i was training mma, my coach made me do 50 guard to armbars, 25 left and 25 right after every class.. at first i thought it was silly, not even remotely a "real" scenario... but when the time came in a fight and the opponent gave me a straight arm and it was just automatic armbar, so quick he didn't have time to react.

couple years later i was horsing around with a friend... same thing, got a straight arm, and it wasn't as smooth but it was still automatic, not even thinking about it straight into armbar...

after every class i left thinking about how much it sucked to have to do those 50 reps AFTER all the work done IN class, so i ended up thinking about it for the shower and entire drive home.. I honestly believe that helped as much as the physical motion.

[jwcoopusa]

This from a Re-Late of mine who shoots more than most:

I have always shot more than most FBI, P.D. and S.O. officers I am aquainted with. The "liability hesitation" is what gets our officers killed. Every officer that does a "shoot" KNOWS beforehand that he/she is going to get cross examined - - second guessed by his own organization and then have to withstand the civil or criminal suit filed by the relatives of the shootee. In reality it is not much better for us civilians.

When a person is defending not only his family, but his family and himself FOR his family, it is NOT HIS PRIVILEGE TO LOSE!! Situational decisions should already be made as a part of your battle plans. I am an old heart patient that cannot run or fight. Situational awareness and shock and awe are my only options for not only survival but for the protection of my family. Practice. Front sight, squeeeeze is a modification of "Point Shooting".

I may not survive but I (pre)plan to damn sure make it not worth the effort for my adversary(s). That is a win.

I listen to this guy, because I know his background, his training, and his focus upon the basics of self-preservation. We would all do well to develop his mentality when it comes to the purpose of firearms for self-protection; but more importantly, perhaps, for protection of our Own.

-jwcusa-

[OKC MAD COW]

My 2 cents here. I have a military background that taught me the benefit of training and muscle memory. The first time, while on a live fire training exercise, I was point and a pop-up target came out of nowhere. I recall shooting and the target going down. In the after action review, our CO asked me what I did, how many times I shot, and how it felt. To be honest, I could not really recall, "it all happend so fast". I told him I engaged the target with 2 or 3 shots, got on the ground and notifed the squad of contact. He informed me that in one movement, I dove to the ground fired 9 rounds in to / at the target and was screaming "contact, contact" the entire time. Wow. training really works.

We had a phrase that I live by. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

When I participate in IPSC or USPSA, I'm the guy with my little carry gun, in my normal holster, with my firearm concealed.

A final note, how often do you train with your carry ammo. Lots of post every where about how long you should keep it. But ask your self, do your hollow points, +P, or +P+ shoot different than your cheap practice ammo? Mine does. It's expensive but I train with my carry ammo frequently. I figure I'm worth it.

Great subject here. We're not perfect but I believe we help each other get better.

Thom

[OUgunnut]

I shoot fairly often. Not hardcore defensive training. I have no doubt I am not 100% ready. The fact is though I know how to handle my weapons especially my carry pieces proficiently frontwards and backwards. Now I don't train with live targets or whatever and I honestly don't have the time to commit like you are speaking of in the original post. I feel more prepared being able to carry my weapon and knowing how to use it than I would without it. No doubt you are more ready than I. Honestly though that's ok. I think owning a firearm and practicing with it regularly is better than nothing. Not everyone can train for countless hours. A good example is when you hear in the news some 60-70 year old granny shoots and kills an intruder. It's likely she doesn't even practice anymore. She has the gun though, knows how to use it, and is willing to do so. Much better than being unarmed. I just think there is a very large range of being defensively ready for situations and there is nothing inherently wrong with not being the master.

[Michael Brown]

I shoot fairly often. Not hardcore defensive training. I have no doubt I am not 100% ready. The fact is though I know how to handle my weapons especially my carry pieces proficiently frontwards and backwards. Now I don't train with live targets or whatever and I honestly don't have the time to commit like you are speaking of in the original post. I feel more prepared being able to carry my weapon and knowing how to use it than I would without it. No doubt you are more ready than I. Honestly though that's ok. I think owning a firearm and practicing with it regularly is better than nothing. Not everyone can train for countless hours. A good example is when you hear in the news some 60-70 year old granny shoots and kills an intruder. It's likely she doesn't even practice anymore. She has the gun though, knows how to use it, and is willing to do so. Much better than being unarmed. I just think there is a very large range of being defensively ready for situations and there is nothing inherently wrong with not being the master.

No one is suggesting that you have to do anything. This is America and everyone can do exactly as they wish.

What I am doing is providing a set of guidelines that can help you. If you choose to ignore them, that's your business.

None of the suggestions on the list require "countless hours". Some require nothing more than a good decision. Your choices are no skin off anyone else's back, so I say do whatever makes you happy.

I simply suggest that you don't kid yourself about your level of preparedness, although its certainly within your right to do so. When I eat a pizza instead of a grilled chicken breast, I don't kid myself that there aren't consequences with my choice despite the fact that there's nothing "inherently wrong" with pizza. If I do it, I accept the consequences after making an informed decision and weighing the cost vs. benefit.

If the cost of training outweighs the benefits to you, you have your answer. Personally, I'm too valuable to me (and hopefully my family) so I train hard.

Regarding grannie who probably doesn't practice succesfully repelling a boarder, I would offer that there are people who have survived jumping out of planes without parachutes.

But would you rather jump with a parachute or without one?

Again, any preparations you make are your choice alone. You and your family are the only ones who have to live with the consequences of that decision.

Michael Brown

[OUgunnut]

No one is suggesting that you have to do anything. This is America and everyone can do exactly as they wish.

What I am doing is providing a set of guidelines that can help you. If you choose to ignore them, that's your business.

I simply suggest that you don't kid yourself about your level of preparedness, although its certainly within your right to do so.

I would also suggest that there are people who have survived jumping out of planes without parachutes.

But would you rather jump with a parachute or without one?

Again, any preparations you make are your choice alone. You and your family are the only ones who have to live with the consequences of that decision.

Michael Brown



I am not kidding myself about my preparedness. Your initial post just kinda comes off like if you aren't training like yada yada yada then you will perish (my shortened version).

I was simply pointing out that someone who owns a firearm and practices regularly is prepared more so than someone who does not. You make it sound like unless you are training as if it is your career then it doesn't amount to ****. I simply disagree. Not a big deal just voicing my opinion.

I'm not joking myself either. I know how to use my firearms and am willing to do so for myself and my family. I practice in a defensive manner using my ccw weapons and holster regularly but it's just using stationary paper targets. I do not think I am as ready as someone who trains like it is a career. Maybe some day I will be when I am not in dental school and have free time.

[Michael Brown]

I am not kidding myself about my preparedness. Your initial post just kinda comes off like if you aren't training like yada yada yada then you will perish (my shortened version).

I was simply pointing out that someone who owns a firearm and practices regularly is prepared more so than someone who does not. You make it sound like unless you are training as if it is your career then it doesn't amount to ****. I simply disagree. Not a big deal just voicing my opinion.

I'm not joking myself either. I know how to use my firearms and am willing to do so for myself and my family. I practice in a defensive manner using my ccw weapons and holster regularly but it's just using stationary paper targets. I do not think I am as ready as someone who trains like it is a career. Maybe some day I will be when I am not in dental school and have free time.

Again, as I said, do whatever makes you happy.

If however you are just shooting paper targets, you are NOT training in a defensive manner. It is better than nothing, but it ignores the most important components of personal protection.

You may do other things that you haven't voiced here but I can only rely on what you have written.

If you don't like the way it's voiced, I can't help you with that.

If you are satisfied about the way you train, then my opinion should be the last thing in the world you should be concerned with.

However the fact that you've chosen to dissent indicates that you feel the need to justify what you do or you question it. If its justification, then refer to my above comment. If its because you have questions, simply read what's offered here for free, take what you like and discard the rest.

I'm simply here to help people prepare for violent confrontations and I give them the best advice I have based on my experience.

If it doesn't jive with your philosophy or goals, then feel free to discard it.

Again, you and your family are the only ones who have to live with the consequences of your decision.

Michael Brown

[OUgunnut]

Again, as I said, do whatever makes you happy.

If however you are just shooting paper targets, you are NOT training in a defensive manner. It is better than nothing, but it ignores the most important components of personal protection.

You may do other things that you haven't voiced here but I can only rely on what you have written.

If you don't like the way it's voiced, I can't help you with that.

If you are satisfied about the way you train, then my opinion should be the last thing in the world you should be concerned with.

However the fact that you've chosen to dissent indicates that you feel the need to justify what you do or you question it. If its justification, then refer to my above comment. If its because you have questions, simply read what's offered here for free, take what you like and discard the rest.

I'm simply here to help people prepare for violent confrontations and I give them the best advice I have based on my experience.

If it doesn't jive with your philosophy or goals, then feel free to discard it.

Again, you and your family are the only ones who have to live with the consequences of your decision.

Michael Brown



I'm mostly just posting to stop studying for my finals tommorow:nolike: Please help me stop. You wouldn't believe how much time I waste doing this.

I understand what you are saying and think your philosiphy is good. Some people however can't for whatever reason train to the level of what you are talking about.

I would shoot more than paper if I could but that's what the range permits or cans and what not if they are on the birm. I try to practice what I can do like mag changes, double taps, etc etc. I'm not trying to justify anything as I said there is no doubt I am not as ready as someone who trains like you. There's still lots to be said for any individual IMHO who practices regularly as they are able to.

[Michael Brown]

I'm mostly just posting to stop studying for my finals tommorow:nolike: Please help me stop. You wouldn't believe how much time I waste doing this.

I understand what you are saying and think your philosiphy is good. Some people however can't for whatever reason train to the level of what you are talking about.

I would shoot more than paper if I could but that's what the range permits or cans and what not if they are on the birm. I try to practice what I can do like mag changes, double taps, etc etc. I'm not trying to justify anything as I said there is no doubt I am not as ready as someone who trains like you. There's still lots to be said for any individual IMHO who practices regularly as they are able to.


For the sake of your grades:wink2:, I will wait until tomorrow to offer some additional places to look for advice and how you can train without spending a lot of time or money.

Michael Brown

[swavy00]

I'm mostly just posting to stop studying for my finals tommorow:nolike: Please help me stop. You wouldn't believe how much time I waste doing this.

I understand what you are saying and think your philosiphy is good. Some people however can't for whatever reason train to the level of what you are talking about.

I would shoot more than paper if I could but that's what the range permits or cans and what not if they are on the birm. I try to practice what I can do like mag changes, double taps, etc etc. I'm not trying to justify anything as I said there is no doubt I am not as ready as someone who trains like you. There's still lots to be said for any individual IMHO who practices regularly as they are able to.

Get to the books!! Get off here, it is not good for grades! Hang with us. These guys can give a lot of pointers. I wasn't much into training when I first started on here, but am getting more and more involved all the time. You wouldn't take a final without studying would you? Same thing here, hopefully you never are tasked with saving yourself or your family, but if you are, you would want to be prepared for that also. You are on the path now. Shooting is a step in the right direction. Just keep taking steps. Most of us don't train as much as we should, but we all just keep taking steps towards our goal. Lifelong process for all of us. Even the high speed, low drag guys never stop training. Everyone starts somewhere.

[OUgunnut]

. You wouldn't take a final without studying would you?

You my friend don't know the average dental student:sweat:

j/k I try but havin 25-26 credit hour semesters just burns you out really fast.

[swavy00]

You my friend don't know the average dental student:sweat:


You better freakin' study! That's my mouth you will be working on! Although there are a lot of people that wish I would shut up, I am not one of them!!

HA

[woodcdi]

Mike,

That's an excellent list of questions to ask one's self before and after one decides whether or not to carry.

I was able to answer affirmatively to eight of the ten.

2) There are sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs in the world. Which are you going to be? Neither. I'm a ram that will butt back if the sheepdog turns against the flock or refuses to ward off the wolves.

Woody

If you want security, buy a gun. If you want longevity, learn how to use it. If you want freedom, carry it. There is nothing worth more than freedom you win for yourself. There is nothing more valuable to that end than the tools of the right that make it possible. B.E.Wood

[abajaj11]

It is my belief that 99% of people who carry guns are not prepared to survive a violent assault (including police officers). While this may offend a lot of carriers, I feel its important to address.

So I ask, is your gun truly a weapon to you or a talisman that will hopefully ward off those who will bring you harm?

To answer this question properly, I propose a series of ten questions with sub-questions. They are not all-encompassing but should give you some ideas to ponder if you are really interested in self-defense and not just busting caps (as fun as that is). There are other issues such as first aid and other issues, but I think this list does a pretty good job questioning the basics of your plan.

1) Do you train realistically with the gun and gear you actually carry with the clothes you actually wear? What does "realistic" mean to you?

2) Will your gear hold up under the stress of a physical encounter? How do you know?

3) Do you regularly train against a live, resisting opponent?

4) Could you physically hold up against an all-out assault from a determined adversary? How do you know?

5) Do you actively train your mind for violent conflict? How?

6) Do you carry less-lethal options when you carry your gun? Have you practiced regularly with them?

7) Do you EVER go anywhere unarmed where you are not legally prohibited from doing so?

8) Have you assessed how long it would take you to access your weapons from any point in your home? Have you checked it against entry from various points in your home?

9) If you have spouses/significant others or children, have you trained them in how to respond if it all goes down? Would they replicate this behavior if you asked them to do it RIGHT THIS MINUTE?

10) Do you become task-fixated in public places? Balancing the check book in the parking lot? Talking on the cell phone while walking across the parking lot? Be honest with yourself.

It doesn't matter if you do all of these things or none of these things. What is important is that you understand where you stand and decide what you want to be.

Nothing we write on a keyboard will save us, but we do want people to start thinking.

Michael Brown

Good sobering points. IMHO, there are degrees of threats and degrees of training. If a trained killer came after me, with lots of experience, then a higher level of training would be needed. But most criminals are too lazy to train, no? Otherwise why why would they be criminals, if they weren't lazy and looking for an easy way out in life? Most folks I see training are extremely law abiding, and most CCW holders are extremely law abiding.

Of course, a bullet is a bullet, no matter how untrained the hand that fires it.
I like to shoot for fun, and any training I get is incidental, but no doubt, a practiced shooter will fall back on practice techniques (grip, front sight, trigger control, etc) thereby increasing the chance of first neutralization.
But the best defense is of course, to leave quickly, BEFORE anything hits the fan, so you don't have to risk facing those bullets.
-abajaj11
PS I realize folks in LE don't always have the luxury of leaving before stuff hits the fan, but I think Michael's post was aimed at civilians.

[J.P.]

Good sobering points. IMHO, there are degrees of threats and degrees of training. If a trained killer came after me, with lots of experience, then a higher level of training would be needed. But most criminals are too lazy to train, no? Otherwise why why would they be criminals, if they weren't lazy and looking for an easy way out in life? Most folks I see training are extremely law abiding, and most CCW holders are extremely law abiding.

Of course, a bullet is a bullet, no matter how untrained the hand that fires it.
I like to shoot for fun, and any training I get is incidental, but no doubt, a practiced shooter will fall back on practice techniques (grip, front sight, trigger control, etc) thereby increasing the chance of first neutralization.
But the best defense is of course, to leave quickly, BEFORE anything hits the fan, so you don't have to risk facing those bullets.
-abajaj11
PS I realize folks in LE don't always have the luxury of leaving before stuff hits the fan, but I think Michael's post was aimed at civilians.


While most people you see training may be "extremely law abiding", the sad fact of the matter is that most people don't train at all.
Criminals do train, especially through ongoing on-the-job experience.

So in effect you have:
-A criminal who constanly hones his skills
-A citizen who never trains at all.
Even if they do train, is their training enough to compete with a criminal who trains with hands on experience?
That's the question we need to ask ourselves.

Shooting practice is a good thing , no question because while "a bullet is a bullet", it is completely worthless and possibly even more dangerous on the user end if it doesn't accurately fins it's target.
Falling back on practice techniques is good, but are you practicing the right things?
When you analyze a dynamic self defense situation, often you will find that the "shooting" or "gun" part is not really the most important aspect.
Those things are just hardware.

Leaving quickly is good advice.The best way to avoid a conflict is to not be there.
Unfortunately we are not always given that option.
You should train to prepare for the worst case...not the best. (obviously)

[Michael Brown]

While most people you see training may be "extremely law abiding", the sad fact of the matter is that most people don't train at all.
Criminals do train, especially through ongoing on-the-job experience.

So in effect you have:
-A criminal who constanly hones his skills
-A citizen who never trains at all.
Even if they do train, is their training enough to compete with a criminal who trains with hands on experience?
That's the question we need to ask ourselves.

Shooting practice is a good thing , no question because while "a bullet is a bullet", it is completely worthless and possibly even more dangerous on the user end if it doesn't accurately fins it's target.
Falling back on practice techniques is good, but are you practicing the right things?
When you analyze a dynamic self defense situation, often you will find that the "shooting" or "gun" part is not really the most important aspect.
Those things are just hardware.

Leaving quickly is good advice.The best way to avoid a conflict is to not be there.
Unfortunately we are not always given that option.
You should train to prepare for the worst case...not the best. (obviously)

You have learned well young Jedi.:wink2:

Michael Brown

[mitchshrader]

Good Question.. and I had to get that out before I disagreed with one thing or another..

I'm of the opinion that determined willingness, (often called mindset) .. is critical to self defense....and necessary for even 'good' training to form good habits.

I'm moreso convinced that training sincerely (time & money invested, experienced instructors, LISTEN to feedback and adapt).. is VERY important to success in self defense.. but *second* in that *first* you have to make up your mind you're WILLING to do that Defend part.

most gun owners ( gun enthusiasts is more correct) have forgotten some things about HOW they decided to be responsible for their own self defense. .

if you've been a lifelong gun owner, you may never have actually decided to be responsible, it sort of grew up when you did.

many folks think of guns as talismans, nice word by the way.. and by MY standards, that beats nothing.. both to have a gun (with minimal foundation of training) and for the example it sets (for others lacking skills)...

yes, the training is critical. no, it isn't strictly required to WIN.. too many untrained folks have won, to prove that point in error.

what might not be evident is that CRIMINALS may be untrained.. they don't have to take tests.. there are certainly plenty of stupid ones, yes?

Yes, training is necessary. Yes, having a gun beats having a talisman.

That's *not* a reason to avoid gun ownership as long as you don't mistake ownership for skill.

There have been one heck of a lot of homicides committed by the untrained. . and SOME of those homicides were self defense, entirely legal and honorable.

Part of the reasons that gungrabbers get excited is how LITTLE training guns take, to be operated correctly.

Considering they've rejected personal responsibility for self defense and civic duty for defense of their family and neighborhood, it rubs their noses in it that they *could* confront the problem themselves if they only WOULD..

ANY level of training is a step in the right direction. A *badly* trained person who gets themself shot trying.. is more valuable to ME, the innocent bystander.. than an apathetic drone who doesn't care. .

I do NOT suggest anyone ignore training requirements, but I won't call them the big half. The big half is WILLING.. and we can work with that. It ain't very difficult once they're willing...

[Michael Brown]

Good Question.. and I had to get that out before I disagreed with one thing or another..

I'm of the opinion that determined willingness, (often called mindset) .. is critical to self defense....and necessary for even 'good' training to form good habits.

I'm moreso convinced that training sincerely (time & money invested, experienced instructors, LISTEN to feedback and adapt).. is VERY important to success in self defense.. but *second* in that *first* you have to make up your mind you're WILLING to do that Defend part.

most gun owners ( gun enthusiasts is more correct) have forgotten some things about HOW they decided to be responsible for their own self defense. .

if you've been a lifelong gun owner, you may never have actually decided to be responsible, it sort of grew up when you did.

many folks think of guns as talismans, nice word by the way.. and by MY standards, that beats nothing.. both to have a gun (with minimal foundation of training) and for the example it sets (for others lacking skills)...

yes, the training is critical. no, it isn't strictly required to WIN.. too many untrained folks have won, to prove that point in error.

what might not be evident is that CRIMINALS may be untrained.. they don't have to take tests.. there are certainly plenty of stupid ones, yes?

Yes, training is necessary. Yes, having a gun beats having a talisman.

That's *not* a reason to avoid gun ownership as long as you don't mistake ownership for skill.

There have been one heck of a lot of homicides committed by the untrained. . and SOME of those homicides were self defense, entirely legal and honorable.

Part of the reasons that gungrabbers get excited is how LITTLE training guns take, to be operated correctly.

Considering they've rejected personal responsibility for self defense and civic duty for defense of their family and neighborhood, it rubs their noses in it that they *could* confront the problem themselves if they only WOULD..

ANY level of training is a step in the right direction. A *badly* trained person who gets themself shot trying.. is more valuable to ME, the innocent bystander.. than an apathetic drone who doesn't care. .

I do NOT suggest anyone ignore training requirements, but I won't call them the big half. The big half is WILLING.. and we can work with that. It ain't very difficult once they're willing...

I wish I could agree as it would make the formula simpler.

However what we are talking about is increasing odds; no more, no less.

We are far past the "willing" point in this discussion, though I whole-heartedly concede that it is prerequisite.

IF willingness was indeed enough and it was easy from there, we would see much better performance in law enforcement shootings.

Thus I whole-heartedly disagree that it's not very hard once they're willing.

I've seen too many examples to believe otherwise.

We should not mistake good fortune for competence and rely on it for our safety.

YMMV.

Michael Brown

[mitchshrader]

we aren't on the same page..

but it's the same book. :)

my point is.. when dealing with novices you can't presume willing.

YOU MAY presume willing.. as in, you DO that..

well.. i don't.

there are folks who take the classes, who won't pull the trigger in a real incident. they may even THINK they're trained...

i think that's a topic of a recent thread, hesitating in a real confrontation..

and we Are in the same book here, i don't want to seem to argue when i have no disagreement with your position.

but i notice a default presumption that willingness and committment exist. they don't always.

how many instructors actually turn down students?

How many OUGHT to turn down (some) students?

nope. when you get to the point of presumption, it's just another vacuum cleaner sales pitch.

no thanks, i ain't partaking of any today, might try my neighbor. i'm sure it's a very nice vacuum cleaner but your self interest is showing..

and it goes right along with CCW ain't a defense of the 2nd amendment.

it's permission from strangers to do things that make sense to start with, and they make JUST as much sense to do em without the paperwork.

An untrained citizen beats nothing, they MIGHT win.

A Whole bunch of people bet worse odds daily, keeping the lights turned on in Vegas.

If gun trainers would go listen to insurance salesmen sales pitches and delete all the stuff that sounded like that.. they'd be better off for it. IMO.

edit/ps. I am really not trying to be a jerk. That's a danger signal that I'm closer than I wanna be to it. My apologies in that direction, it's consequential to disagreement and not my goal.

I know almost nothing, and that's being generous, of the business of being a trainer. My opinions are specifically focused on novices, those of recent and untested interest, poorly budgeted and lacking foundation to build on. If somebody WANTS a trainer, researches and studies different styles and reputations, picks with their eyes open.. i've not a word to say to em, they already know more than I do. I may ask them questions to save steps, pick their brains if they'll stand for it.. but i'm not going to TEACH them anything.

Now someone who may have a recent and questionable conversion from 'no-gun' to 'owns/wants/needs' a gun.. I may have opinions and insights that can be helpful. i might JUST teach them something and save them some steps.

i'm not arguing with you just to piss you off.

[strangersinspace]

This is a very interesting thread... I have had guns of one sort or another since I was a kid. I now have a wife and a newborn child and a home to protect, so I've taken an interest in learning how to defend my family. I've used my guns just enough to know deep down, if I ever had to use them in a way such that my life depended on it, I may not survive. In other words, I know enough about using guns, to know that I need to know a lot more....

What recommendations can you offer for someone like myself? How does one train for a real self-defense gunfight? I know that you can mentally plan and such, but what is some practical real world advise?

[Michael Brown]

This is a very interesting thread... I have had guns of one sort or another since I was a kid. I now have a wife and a newborn child and a home to protect, so I've taken an interest in learning how to defend my family. I've used my guns just enough to know deep down, if I ever had to use them in a way such that my life depended on it, I may not survive. In other words, I know enough about using guns, to know that I need to know a lot more....

What recommendations can you offer for someone like myself? How does one train for a real self-defense gunfight? I know that you can mentally plan and such, but what is some practical real world advise?

My first suggestion would be to read all the stickies in the training and CCW sub-forums. There is ton of information there.

That should get you started.

From there you should have much more specific questions.

Good luck.

Michael Brown

[458 SOCOM]

I am afraid after reading your wonderful article, that my weapon is a talisman. However, I can change and I will. I am going to start taking my self defense a little more seriously. More trips to the range, and also add some training from reputable schools.

I bet you wouldn't know of any, huh?:thumb:

[J.P.]

I am afraid after reading your wonderful article, that my weapon is a talisman. However, I can change and I will. I am going to start taking my self defense a little more seriously. More trips to the range, and also add some training from reputable schools.

I bet you wouldn't know of any, huh?:thumb:

TDSA (http://www.tdsatulsa.com/) and USSA (http://www.usshootingacademy.com/) both come to mind and both are OSA sponsors.:thumb:

Realizing that you are not as capable as you think you are is a great step in the right direction!
(I'm not sure if that came out right, but I think you get the drift)

Puching paper doesn't teach you as much as fighting against a resisting opponent.
Another excellent website from which to research self defense concepts is: TPI (http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/)
You will do far more reading on these subjects on this particular page than you can possibly imagine, and it is an excellent resource with information from some top-notch instructors.
(instuctors by the way which some of OSA's own resident instructors train with)

[360]

TDSA (http://www.tdsatulsa.com/) and USSA (http://www.usshootingacademy.com/) both come to mind and both are OSA sponsors.:thumb:

Realizing that you are not as capable as you think you are is a great step in the right direction!
(I'm not sure if that came out right, but I think you get the drift)

Puching paper doesn't teach you as much as fighting against a resisting opponent.
Another excellent website from which to research self defense concepts is: TPI (http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/)
You will do far more reading on these subjects on this particular page than you can possibly imagine, and it is an excellent resource with information from some top-notch instructors.
(instuctors by the way which some of OSA's own resident instructors train with)

This is the message I got when trying to register : "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator." :anyone:

[Michael Brown]

This is the message I got when trying to register : "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator." :anyone:

This is because it is a closed membership. You have to be approved first. It just takes a day or two to make certain you're not a currently banned member or a known problem child.

Michael Brown

[MercFE]

This is because it is a closed membership. You have to be approved first. It just takes a day or two to make certain you're not a currently banned member or a known problem child.

Michael Brown

Would be interested in reading some of the posts there... How does one go about being "approved?"

[J.P.]

Yes, I forgot to mention that you have to register first.
The registration process takes a while but it's worth it.

They do this to weed out problem members and are not very tolerant of inane bullshit over there at all.

[Michael Brown]

Yes, I forgot to mention that you have to register first.
The registration process takes a while but it's worth it.

They do this to weed out problem members and are not very tolerant of inane bullshit over there at all.

It is a "read more, post less" type of forum as most of the questions have been asked.

Introduce yourself and then get to reading.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

"Read more, Post less"
Yes indeed. There aren't many things that have not been previously addressed.
To give you an idea....
I've been a member there for more that 2 1/2 years and I have 8 posts.
:)

[MaddSkillz]

This is because it is a closed membership. You have to be approved first. It just takes a day or two to make certain you're not a currently banned member or a known problem child.

Michael Brown

How does one get approved if you can't register? I'm interested in reading that forum as well.

Thanks!

[J.P.]

How does one get approved if you can't register? I'm interested in reading that forum as well.

Thanks!
They might have it closed for some particular reason, try again later.
:anyone:

[Michael Brown]

How does one get approved if you can't register? I'm interested in reading that forum as well.

Thanks!

You register the same way but it takes a while and you have to be approved.

I think it just gives you that message until you're approved.

Michael Brown

[Bobrob]

MitchShrader wrote:
there are folks who take the classes, who won't pull the trigger in a real incident. they may even THINK they're trained...

i think that's a topic of a recent thread, hesitating in a real confrontation..

and we Are in the same book here, i don't want to seem to argue when i have no disagreement with your position.

but i notice a default presumption that willingness and committment exist. they don't always.

how many instructors actually turn down students?

How many OUGHT to turn down (some) students?

nope. when you get to the point of presumption, it's just another vacuum cleaner sales pitch.

no thanks, i ain't partaking of any today, might try my neighbor. i'm sure it's a very nice vacuum cleaner but your self interest is showing..

and it goes right along with CCW ain't a defense of the 2nd amendment.

it's permission from strangers to do things that make sense to start with, and they make JUST as much sense to do em without the paperwork.

An untrained citizen beats nothing, they MIGHT win.

A Whole bunch of people bet worse odds daily, keeping the lights turned on in Vegas.

If gun trainers would go listen to insurance salesmen sales pitches and delete all the stuff that sounded like that.. they'd be better off for it. IMO.

For anyone who "has seen the elephant" it's almost imposable to say what one is willing to do or not. I say it's more a result of chance than training.
While I would prefer the benefit of first class training, I would more rather have a shotgun.

[mouthpiece]

Talisman? NO, I don't carry any trinkets. For me it's life or death.
7) Do you ever go anywhere unarmed where you are not legally prohibited from doing so?

For me not so much unarmed, the question is as follows.

What about going armed in places you are not supposed to? Remember it's only your life we are talking about here.
Example; Bank, Hospital, Church, P.O., Liquor store, friends homes?
All I'm saying is
People get shot in bank robberies all the time, I always carry here.,
P.O., never heard of a shooting here,[sarcasm] Carry here? It's up to you, I know what I do.,
Church, been carrying since before I had a CCW, Shooting Example earlier this week,
Hospital, depends on which entrance you go in, some posted, some not, I know what I do.,
Liquor store, these never get robbed, [sarcasm again], I've been once in maybe 5 years, and yes I carried.
Friends homes, I don't have the violent, dramatic type, sometimes I do, Sometimes don't.
Yes most CCW'ers are law abiding, but I don't consider myself a criminal for protecting my family.
It's my life and my wife,[and kids] and I'll do what I have to for protection.
Stay situationaly aware and always think of how you will react to every changing moment.

Remember one thing about traveling unarmed on acft, take notice of where the fire extinguishers/oxygen bottles are when you board.[These make great weapons] Usually behind/beside F/A seats, in galleys, entrances/exits, also in designated overhead bins that will be placarded. There are other things you can use on the acft, just read the signs, sometimes they're small.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

A very good post by Michael Brown. I've been on here for quite some time and I just read this for the first time this morning. Thanks, mp

[J.P.]

MitchShrader wrote:
there are folks who take the classes, who won't pull the trigger in a real incident. they may even THINK they're trained...

i think that's a topic of a recent thread, hesitating in a real confrontation..

and we Are in the same book here, i don't want to seem to argue when i have no disagreement with your position.

but i notice a default presumption that willingness and committment exist. they don't always.

how many instructors actually turn down students?

How many OUGHT to turn down (some) students?

nope. when you get to the point of presumption, it's just another vacuum cleaner sales pitch.

no thanks, i ain't partaking of any today, might try my neighbor. i'm sure it's a very nice vacuum cleaner but your self interest is showing..

and it goes right along with CCW ain't a defense of the 2nd amendment.

it's permission from strangers to do things that make sense to start with, and they make JUST as much sense to do em without the paperwork.

An untrained citizen beats nothing, they MIGHT win.

A Whole bunch of people bet worse odds daily, keeping the lights turned on in Vegas.

If gun trainers would go listen to insurance salesmen sales pitches and delete all the stuff that sounded like that.. they'd be better off for it. IMO.

For anyone who "has seen the elephant" it's almost imposable to say what one is willing to do or not. I say it's more a result of chance than training.
While I would prefer the benefit of first class training, I would more rather have a shotgun.

Exactly what is more a result of chance than training?

[Bobrob]

chance
noun
a: something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause
b: the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings
c: the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence
d: the possibility of a particular outcome in an uncertain situation

[J.P.]

I know the definition, just trying to understand your point...

I asked: "what is "

[Bobrob]

It’s not difficult; a specific, identifiable, expected, usual and intended event which occurs in a particular time and place, without ambiguity or uncertainty can be relied upon to produce a perfectly logical conditioned response.

Rarely ever happens.

I stand by my original statement: it's almost imposable to say what one is willing to do or not. I say it's more a result of chance than training.

That is my opinion, you are entitled to yours

Good Day

[J.P.]

I stand by my original statement: it's almost imposable to say what one is willing to do or not. I say it's more a result of chance than training.

That is my opinion, you are entitled to yours

Good Day

I totally disagree.
I don't think it's impossible at all to say what one is willing to do.
(After you make the decision to be willing, that is)

[underdog]

Years of experience by LE agencies and the military show that when people encounter stressful situations, they tend to revert to training rather than a decision-making process. It's not opinion, it's real world experience.

[Mitch Rapp]

Years of experience by LE agencies and the military show that when people encounter stressful situations, they tend to revert to training rather than a decision-making process. It's not opinion, it's real world experience.

That's why training training is so repetitive, you need to act, not think, but act and act properly. Eric at OPS told me a story about a trooper in N.Y. who, while transitioning to semi's, was taught that, on the range, if they had a malfunction to lift a hand and the range boss would come clear the weapon. They were briefed on clearing stoppages but, that was not how they practiced. During a traffic stop the trooper was attacked and had to use his weapon, it jammed, and before he was gunned down, he raised his hand. He was not a coward, nor was he a fool, he simply had been conditioned to respond a certain way.

[RDS]

Most survivors of deadly force encounters are lucky, not good. Just my opinion, albeit an opinion based on experience.

I'll take "good and lucky" any day over "just lucky." And, you won't get good by hoping you'll be lucky.

[underdog]

Why do LE officers almost always win gunfights with criminals? Why is our kill ratio in Iraq 10:1? We must have some lucky bastards in uniform.:)

[dutchmcallister]

Michael,

A very thought-provoking post, and one those who use weapons to defend themselves should carefully consider. I am past 70 years in age, and after some debilitating illnesses, very much weaker than I was years ago. A couple of years ago, I thought it was a good idea to switch from a revolver for self-defense to a tiny automatic (Warthog 45). After buying the pistol, I discovered the recoil spring was so powerful that I had difficulty in pulling the slide back to chamber a round. I got rid of the pistol as a self-defense weapon that same day. The point is--and the one you make so well--is to consider all areas of your life as realistically as you can, and try to make realistic decisions related to your personal defense on CURRENT situations. I spent my young active years as an infantry officer in the U.S. Army, and I was willing to stake my existence on the fact that I could take on all comers and probably win. That day is long gone. Be sure of your PRESENT capabililities, and make decisions related to your life or the lives of those you love accordingly.

Dutch McAllister

[OkieRose]

"It is my belief that 99% of people who carry guns are not prepared to survive a violent assault (including police officers). While this may offend a lot of carriers, I feel its important to address."

99%? That's quite a high percentage. Have you any factual support for your belief? I don't practice my self-defense daily. I have no option to shoot other than paper targets. I DO check my mental and emotional readiness. I AM prepared to defend myself or others by using lethal force. I AM a good (very good) shot. And I will do the best I can if the occasion arises.

How often does one face a "violent attack"? I have not yet, and I am old. But I have been aware of my surroundiings, have made my weapon available, and have made certain I am ready to shoot to kill any assailant. Y'know what? If I miss...if I am killed or wounded...if I am not successful in removing my assailant...I will have tried. I will have been courageous. I will not have been a lame-brain who has a weapon but has not the will nor knowledge to use it.

I suppose your post struck me as being important in reminding all that a license to carry does not protect one on its own. But also it seemed elitist. We are in this together. The good, the clumsy, the prepared, the skilled, the practiced, all the individuals who either meet or do not rise to your criteria. We should take from you the necessity of preparedness, and ask of you that your requirements be extrapolated to instruct those 99% that, as of now, do not measure up.

[Michael Brown]

"It is my belief that 99% of people who carry guns are not prepared to survive a violent assault (including police officers). While this may offend a lot of carriers, I feel its important to address."

99%? That's quite a high percentage. Have you any factual support for your belief? I don't practice my self-defense daily. I have no option to shoot other than paper targets. I DO check my mental and emotional readiness. I AM prepared to defend myself or others by using lethal force. I AM a good (very good) shot. And I will do the best I can if the occasion arises.

How often does one face a "violent attack"? I have not yet, and I am old. But I have been aware of my surroundiings, have made my weapon available, and have made certain I am ready to shoot to kill any assailant. Y'know what? If I miss...if I am killed or wounded...if I am not successful in removing my assailant...I will have tried. I will have been courageous. I will not have been a lame-brain who has a weapon but has not the will nor knowledge to use it.

I suppose your post struck me as being important in reminding all that a license to carry does not protect one on its own. But also it seemed elitist. We are in this together. The good, the clumsy, the prepared, the skilled, the practiced, all the individuals who either meet or do not rise to your criteria. We should take from you the necessity of preparedness, and ask of you that your requirements be extrapolated to instruct those 99% that, as of now, do not measure up.

Is there something wrong with being elistist when in comes to realistic preparation?

I don't think so.

Is there something wrong with being among the lowest common denominators?

Not unless you delude yourself into believing you're not an LCD simply because you carry a pistol.

Being well-prepared won't make you a better person, won't make you more popular, and won't make you anything other than more prepared.

The only part of your post that is incorrect is your statement that you don't have any other choice than to shoot at paper targets.

You have CHOSEN only to work this aspect because it is either enjoyable or convenient. Since you posted nothing about your training background I cannot assess which.

There is nothing wrong with that, it is simply incomplete if you wish to be prepared.

As far as factual information to support my position, I'd do a lot more reading here and that should answer your question.

Michael Brown

[wesok]

Well, I always thought having a gun was better than not having one.

[J.P.]

Well, I always thought having a gun was better than not having one.

Not always. Especially if it gets taken away and used against you....
;)

[Mitch Rapp]

How often does one face a "violent attack"? I have not yet, and I am old. But I have been aware of my surroundiings, have made my weapon available, and have made certain I am ready to shoot to kill any assailant. Y'know what? If I miss...if I am killed or wounded...if I am not successful in removing my assailant...I will have tried. I will have been courageous. I will not have been a lame-brain who has a weapon but has not the will nor knowledge to use it.

I suppose your post struck me as being important in reminding all that a license to carry does not protect one on its own. But also it seemed elitist. We are in this together. The good, the clumsy, the prepared, the skilled, the practiced, all the individuals who either meet or do not rise to your criteria. We should take from you the necessity of preparedness, and ask of you that your requirements be extrapolated to instruct those 99% that, as of now, do not measure up.


Sorry, but "tried" and "have been" are not words I want to associate with defending my family, or myself. Being the father of three, I have a responsibility to live, to win and to destroy any and all attempts at violence against my family as a whole.

You may not be certain of the outcome of a fight, but you can know which side to bet on.

[wesok]

Not always. Especially if it gets taken away and used against you....
;)

Well, we can either not have one, or we can keep it unloaded. That would be better....I won't drive to the store because I might have a car wreck.

[Michael Brown]

Well, we can either not have one, or we can keep it unloaded. That would be better....I won't drive to the store because I might have a car wreck.

I think his point was to tip the odds in your favor, not to not have a gun.

How much a gun, by itself, assists you is open for debate as there are extreme examples on both ends.

That said, high levels of skill and experience are desirable qualities in any endeavor from cooking to brain surgery, personal protection included.

The point of this thread is not to debate whether one should carry a gun; I would believe that answer is obvious.

The point is to get people thinking about their plan and potential difficulties in the realm of personal protection rather than just hoping for the best.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

well said.

[bankbb1]

You know, I frequently stand in front of a mirror and practice accessing my weapons, especially when I get something new. And I have to admit, I feel like a real ass everytime I do it and just hope no one walks in while I'm doing it. I think only way I could fell like a bigger ass is if I needed the weapon and had not spent all of that time practicing! Its called muscle memory and it only comes from repeated, correct movement. Practice also prepares the mind and the spirit for threat. It takes at least 1000 repitions for a movement to become natural. Oh yeah, we need the practice.

[J.P.]

A lot of folks more experienced than I, have said:

"Practice doesn't make perfect.....perfect practice makes perfect"


...I trust their experience.

[twoguns?]

What I understand is practice is a must.I must make the time. I have Chosen to carry a Deadly weapon, I have Chosen to take the responsibility.Now my choice is made for me,I must Choose to train.As often and as much as I can. A deadly encounter is just that DEADLY.I choose to walk away when its done.Your Choice?

[expertzx]

Post Deleted

[notasniper]

I have an idea of how I would measure up to a threat. It is based on many years of training and fighting. I have fired my gun in anger, defense and to preserve life and the American way. I have not however been faced with a one on one hostile threat......ever. I am no longer surrounded by true warriors. I am surrounded by desk bound sheep that talk tough. So my mindset is a little diffrent than it was just a few short years ago. I do train based on my knowledge of a hostile encounter not my precieved notion of how is this going to go down. You can never be 100% ready but i belive that if you have a strong will to survive a set of car keys can be a deadly weapon. The gun is just an easier way to gouge out your attackers eyes. I liked you post and it rang true to 99% of the guys on the range. So it is like life 1% protecting the 97% from the evil 2%. The classic sheep, sheep dog and wolf story..........
CHEERS.

[spd67]

So technically it is legal for me to carry in a bar if I'm an employee??

As long as the owner or designee says you can and you are not drinking then you can carry as per state statute says

[spd67]

how do you get to Carnige Hall....thats right...Practice...training for a deadly encounter is no different...you must practice under stress...you must practice malfunction drills...you must practice marksmanship and combat shooting...you must know your weapon inside and out...but most importantly you must train your mind into a warriors mindset / mentality. A gun is not a Talisman it is a tool and if you have it on your side you had darn well be ready to pull the trigger otherwise it is just an expensive paperweight.

[BadKarma]

For what my two cents may be worth. I have been in the situation that is being described here, I was in an officer involved shooting several years ago and the suspect was killed. In my opinion the most important aspect of carrying a weapon and using the weapon is quite simple, a survival mindset, I am going to survive whatever the cost. If it's shooting him, stabbing him, running over him with a vehicle, it makes no difference, I am going to survive. This comes into play even more if you are injured during the incident. A surprising number of gunshot and knife wounds are not fatal, to a great extent you make the choice to survive or not, never ever ever give up, if you are down, get up. If you can't come to terms with these things then my best advice is submit to your assailant and hope he decides not to kill you. If you present a weapon and don't intend to use it you have raised the level of necessary force for him as well and he undoubtedly will choose to defend himself.
Perfect practice does make you better, it does not make you perfect. You will do as you have trained in times of stress and your abilities will be reduced somewhat by that stress, that's just the human factor. Simple fact, this puts you at a disadvantage and coupled with the probability that your assailant already knows what he is going to do and is in all likely hood more prepared than you. Obviously proper and frequent training is critical.
In short how does one prepare for this event? Survival mindset, competent with your weapon, and avoid cranialrectal inversion, pay attention to where you are and what's taking place around you. The best way is to avoid it, like an old bomb tech friend of mine once told me; don't be there when it goes off. Don't knowingly put yourself in situations that you know are unsafe and never choose to be a victim.

As far as what happens in an armed encounter, it will be the fastest slow motion event you will ever experience. My incident involved a total of seven rounds and was probably over and done in less than a couple of seconds. To this day I will tell you it took place frame by frame. I later remembered the muzzle blast, the recoil, and seeing my rounds strike the bad guy along with the friggin huge weapon he was trying to kill me with. At the precise moment it was over, I couldn't tell you s**t about what just took place. Memory loss is a high probability, is very common, and nothing to worry about. It will sort itself out in a few days. It simply is a reaction similar to when the guy in front of you slams on his brakes and you instinctively do the same and then later realize what just happened. Being well prepared is your greatest advantage in an armed encounter, most likely it will be the only thing in your favor at the time.
It is not the end of the world and will not ruin your life. Never feel bad or guilty about surviving. It was his game, you won, he lost, screw him.
Hope this helps.

[DaveTec]

Per the sheepdog story in Glockemdown's sig, I am the sheepdog for my children. I decided that I would defend them and myself to the end, and am quite proficient with a pistol. If we were ever threatened, there would be zero hesitation to kill. Not wound.

[H-one-five]

Absolute persistance is what it took for me. Two years ago my wife hated guns, and didnt see the need for them. Now she begs for a trip to the range, and we will "war game" sceneario out as we do our day to day activities.

[LtCCMPUnit42]

One of my Academy instructors told me:" you fight like you train". If you half a** you training you will be a half a** fighter.