Role of the Shotgun in Self Defense/Police Applications

[Michael Brown]

I have truly begun to question the utility of the shotgun in self-defense/police applications.

Traditionally the shotgun was the weapon of choice for home defense and for police officers who needed something more than a pistol.

Once deployed and inside its envelope, the shotgun is a weapon par excellance. It provides tissue destruction that is parallelled by few other smallarms and little that is available commercially.

That said, how could someone question the shotgun's utility?

Here is my reasoning:

The fluidity of police tactical situations dictates that distances and locations are highly unpredictable. Thus we may have to make a contact distance shot or a longer range shot, if we have the foresight to get a long gun in the first place.

The shotgun's pattern with buckshot is best used inside pistol range and becomes unusable without specialty barrels outside 30 yards. If we decide to equip ourselves with slugs, why not just use a rifle that was meant for just such a job? Since the select-a slug drill has been demonstrated unreliable in combat, despite many agencies still teaching it, it would seem that the most sensible choice would be to load with buckshot OR slugs but not both. Either way, it becomes a less than optimal choice.

In home defense, I believe that many underestimate the short amount of time it takes for an intruder to breach their home and be at bedside. There are of course exceptions, but I am speaking in general terms. At contact range, any long gun is unwieldy and difficult to bring into play. Thus the long gun is really only useful once you have barricaded yourself.

If you have succesfully done so, a shotgun is a formidable choice but I don't think its really any more formidable than a rifle under those circumstances. Either way, a pistol is the primary weapon in those circumstances until you have barricaded yourself and loved ones.

I am a firm believer in the KISS philosophy. I find nothing impressive about owning an array of firearms, none of which winds up mastered, if self-defense is your rationale for owning firearms. I believe all but the exceptional are better served with fewer designs and more skill. If one wants numerous weapons (which I DO find to be a reasonable policy) they should be very similar designs and preferably calibers. I am not knocking someone wanting to own firearms for collector or hobby purposes, but am merely speaking to the defense-minded.

Fewer designs equals more familiarity with a platform which is far more important to saving your life than a safe full of guns.

The one area where I do see the shotgun being more useful than any other design is the armed robbery stakeout role but that is becoming less and less common in modern policing.

Thus I am coming more and more to the belief that the bulk of the work done by police officers and lawfully armed citizens can be done with a rifle and a pistol. With only two designs to master, training time and expenditure can be reduced and I firmly believe that one can never get as good with three weapons as he can with two assuming a fixed amount of training and money.

The only contrary arguments I have heard seem less than sensible i.e. why take away a tool, it does one thing better than any other, etc.

Thoughts?

Michael Brown

[YukonGlocker]

I agree. Another point is ammo availability. You can grab your M4 and you have 30 rounds before you have to reload. A large part of shotgun training is reloading. If you ever get into a heated gun battle, with a shotgun, you will be doing tac reloads over and over. I think that time can be better served sending rounds to the enemy.

In a home defense senerio you will probably not need more than 9 rounds of buckshot. But who knows. Maybe you jump outside to run and the BG has a few friends waiting outside???

[TulsaDave]

:werd:

Shotguns are for ducks, doves, and turkeys.

[Michael Brown]

:werd:

Shotguns are for ducks, doves, and turkeys.

.....and zombies.

There are few weapons as effective on zombies as a 12 gauge pump.:)

Michael Brown

[TulsaDave]

.....and zombies.

There are few weapons as effective on zombies as a 12 gauge pump.:)

Michael Brown

I completely disagree! It is generally recognized that zombies attack in herds, and require headshots to die. Thus you need accuracy, range, and magazine capacity; a shotgun has none of these things. Sure, a shotgun will blow pieces off the walking undead, but how many times have we seen Dennis Hopper, that chick that was in "Go", or all those annoying limies from Shaun of the Dead lethally assaulted by zombies with massive wounds? Nope, the AR was tailormade for repelling zombie hordes.

Actually, a suppressed .22 might be even better. But the AR gives you the option of engaging uncooperative fellow survivors when you want their stuff.

[J.P.]

I didn't think it was possible but you actually make a very compelling argument against the shotgun,Mike.
I agree with the notion that a long gun could be 'unwieldy' in a home defense scenario in which you are not yet barricaded.
I can hardly get around the house or up and down the hall with mine.
I keep a pistol as my primary defense weapon until I'm sure I can manuver to my Mossy Persuader...if possible.
I'm not going to toss out the Mossy anytime soon but again I do think you make a compelling argument for ditching the shotgun in favor of a rifle or carbine for police work.
Obviously there would still be specialized applications for the shotgun...such as breeching doors.

[AgentJBOND]

I've heard that the sound of a pump action is sometimes enough to send burglers running scared. It is also my understanding that buckshot does not overpenetrate the way many handgun/long gun rounds do (less worry of hitting the kids through a couple of walls).
I also tend to think that, in bed, a shotgun would require only very little additional time and space to ready compared to a pistol. In fact, it might be easier to find in the dark. Then you either pump it for effect or not, and blow the guy away with buckshot - more stopping power than a handgun with less concern for hitting something behind the target.
eh?

[Michael Brown]

I've heard that the sound of a pump action is sometimes enough to send burglers running scared. It is also my understanding that buckshot does not overpenetrate the way many handgun/long gun rounds do (less worry of hitting the kids through a couple of walls).
I also tend to think that, in bed, a shotgun would require only very little additional time and space to ready compared to a pistol. In fact, it might be easier to find in the dark. Then you either pump it for effect or not, and blow the guy away with buckshot - more stopping power than a handgun with less concern for hitting something behind the target.
eh?

Shooting with your kids as the backstop is a terrible decision. It MIGHT be necessary but if it is indeed so, perhaps better planning is in order.

Either way, buckshot will penetrate anything inside a typical home. If you are looking for lack of penetration, a 223/5.56 with soft point ammo is a better choice as it penetrates less than even the softest lead buckshot against interior walls.

If you need to collect children, it is much easier to do with a pistol than a shotgun.

The value of the sound of the pump action is very overrated, although it makes for a lot of conversation on internet boards and gun magazines. Stealth is almost always a better option.

I think you misunderstand my comparison to a pistol.

What I am referring to is kissing distance shooting, which is very likely in a home defense scenario given the time it takes to ready yourself and your weapon.

At such distances a shotgun is very difficult to use.

Michael Brown

[AgentJBOND]

thank you for addressing my points... i understand better now!

[goodoleboy]

If ever get in a situtation at home my shotgun would be the last thing I would grab. Like Mike said its harder to round up kids with a long gun. I cant holster my shotgun to pick up my children,leaving me no choice but to lay the shotgun down which I dont want to do. With a pistol and paddle holster, I can holster my gun and pick up the baby and move to a more secure area or round up more kids quicker.

[luvmykalashnikov]

Ofcourse you could always split the difference and get one of these http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Just think of it as a BIG 1911!:thumb:

[mons meg]

Well, the argument is interesting, but I'm still not selling my 590...Logan County can be pretty creepy. I mean, some of those zombies could be tweaking on meth! Can you imagine???

[OStateFlyer]

KAC Masterkey; too bad you can't attach the bayonet.

[Michael Brown]

Just to make this clear, I am not telling anyone here to go and hock their shotguns.

What I am trying to do is get everyone to think the issue through for themselves rather than just rely on the junk you read in gun magazines.

I give what has been my experience and observatons and try to turn it into well-reasoned advice, coupled with what works for ME. Your mileage may vary.

That's all it is.

Michael Brown

[YukonGlocker]

Well said MB. You have to figure out what is best for you. I have practiced the most with handguns. I feel most comfortable with a handgun at ranges less than 30 yards. I frequently practice with my handgun at 50 yards. I can usually hit a silouette at 50 yards using a bench; but I don't think I would be as steady if someone was shooting at me!!!

In the confines of my home, it is handgun all the way. I can move around the house easier with a handgun, I can move my family easier with a handgun, and I feel well armed with my home defense handgun.

But if something is going down, and I don't know what, I am grabbing my M4. I am practicing with my M4 frequently, and getting more comfortable with it all the time. If I encounter multiple enemys, I feel I can keep them at a distance from me. That gives me a chance to survive until the Cavalry shows up, or I can get away.

Thanks for posting an excellent thread MB. I constantly think about tactics and situations, and try to figure out what is best. I enjoy discussing these topics, and this is what makes OSA a great place.

[J.P.]

We are definitely going to shoot the M4 faster and probably more accurately than any 12ga,I think.
(All things equal)

[montesa]

I worry about hearing damage. An M4 seems to be so much louder than a shotgun or pistol. I am not even sure I could fire indoors in a small room without hearing protection and be able to function after the shot or shots. Am I way off base?

[Michael Brown]

I worry about hearing damage. An M4 seems to be so much louder than a shotgun or pistol. I am not even sure I could fire indoors in a small room without hearing protection and be able to function after the shot or shots. Am I way off base?

If it is a self-defense situation where fear is a factor, auditory exclusion will likely kick in and sound of the weapon will be a non-factor.

Now if it is not a self-defense situation i.e. dispatching a wounded animal or something similar where your body/mind have no reason to be in fear, then hearing is a big deal.

Michael Brown

[montesa]

So will auditory exclusion just minimize the percieved sound or will it actually protect your hearing from being damaged?

[Michael Brown]

So will auditory exclusion just minimize the percieved sound or will it actually protect your hearing from being damaged?

Keep in mind that I am not a doctor and there are many more qualified to answer this than me but I have studied smaterial on the issue.

Auditory exclusion will minimize the perceived sound and (although this is a point of contention among physicians) raise your tolerance for amplified sound temporarily.

This does not mean NO damage, just MINIMIZED damage.

However there is a point where auditory exclusion cannot assist further and many claim the 223/5.56 concussion falls in that area.

Its definitely not a conclusive area as its debated by informed and knowledgeable people on both sides.

Michael Brown

[RobC]

This thread is for a discussion of issues not for unsolicited attempts at mockery and derision of legitimate discussion.

Michael Brown

[montesa]

Keep in mind that I am not a doctor and there are many more qualified to answer this than me but I have studied smaterial on the issue.

Auditory exclusion will minimize the perceived sound and (although this is a point of contention among physicians) raise your tolerance for amplified sound temporarily.

This does not mean NO damage, just MINIMIZED damage.

However there is a point where auditory exclusion cannot assist further and many claim the 223/5.56 concussion falls in that area.

Its definitely not a conclusive area as its debated by informed and knowledgeable people on both sides.

Michael Brown

Thanks for the info. Thats something I have always wondered about.

[RobC]

Mr. Brown,

Check your PMs.


Rob

[OStateFlyer]

Foregoing the shotgun and relying on a carbine or pistol is a viable option. A stick (or better yet, axe handle) is better than nothing after all. Referencing Rob's previous post, suppressors are a real option to combat hearing damage/loss. Even given the effects of auditory exclusion, hearing damage occurs (as MB pointed out), but hearing damage is cumulative. The more you are exposed to any damaging level of noise, the more loss you incur. An interesting article over on Surefire's website discusses this with regard to police use. Interesting stuff. Plus you can practice/train without hearing protection, and without disturbing say...neighbors.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/524/sesent/00

[Bluedot]

For home defense....Alarm Dogs work pretty good...and for a pistol or shotgun..why not get the best of both worlds..I think Tarus make a long colt wheel gun that shoots both .45 cal and .410 ga the court judges like them and the guns are nicknamed and this is from memory "Court guns or Judge guns"....me, I want a Derriger that shots 3" 410 #6 shot...good hunting

[mons meg]

Back to the original question, I guess I'm not good enough at any one of the traditional "3 guns" to be concerned with which one I'm best at. I mean, muscle memory means the Bushmaster would normally win, but it's not next to the bed, and if an intruder managed to make it into our bedroom without alarming our twitchy Weimaraner I'm not sure I'd be able to get to the pistol quickly enough. At this point, we're bare hands and unless the intruder has a firearm, he should look to his own safety. While my job doesn't afford me the opportunity to train like Mike Brown, I am in his "size class", and I have trained.

Thing is, when I'm at home, the dog is always right there at the foot of the bed, and she barks at anything she doesn't recognize. The shotgun, AR, and pistols are equally accessible, and my instinct is to go for the shotgun, for no other reason than I want whatever it is to be dead RFN.

I give a lot of weight to MB's argument, and I know we all want to "Be Like Mike". ;) I was only kidding about selling the 590, Mike...I would never sell a gun. Tried it once with a friend and ended up buying it back. But seriously, now I think I should really look into one of those bedside pistol safes that you can operate in the dark. And start jogging again. And find a MMA/Filipino trainer in OKC. And join an IDPA club.

Crap. Thanks a lot, Mike. :)

[Michael Brown]

I do my best.:thumb:

FYI, being a police officer doesn't afford me much more ability to train than being a plumber or a teacher or a doctor or anything else really.

It gives me perspective on what is important and let's me apply some things that others don't but in terms of training time, I have the same 24 hours in a day and the same family commitments as anyone else.

When I was in high school, M.L. Carr of the Boston Celtics came in to give a talk. One of the things that I keep with me to this day is that he said "All of us have the same number of hours in the day and we all get to choose how we spend them. Larry Bird lives the same 24 hours that you do."

Thus, instead of watching TV, I dryfire. Instead of sitting around twiddling my thumbs, I go lift or go hit the heavy bag.

I have to mow my lawn, do my dishes, and play with my kid just like anyone else. I just take the time that I'm not doing that and cultivate issues that are important to me rather than do things that others do out of habit (i.e. watch TV).

My two cents.

Michael Brown

[OK CTU]

Michael,

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I have just completed the Combat Shotgun training course and it proved to me that a shotgun from a slung (cruiser safe) position can beat a handgun out of the holster getting into action, firing its first round. The standard single 12 ga OO Buck round at pistol range has an immediate stopping effect on what it hits compared to multiple shots from some caliber handguns(ie 8 .32cal bullets/pellets hitting target simutaniously). A shotgun loaded with #4 Shot turkey loads at 15 yards is still devastating to soft tissue yet does not penetrate structure walls.

I would also like to make a point of self defense shots are normally not done under range conditions. High stress leads to inacuracy in shoot situations. Where a shotgun loaded with any scattering shot will reduce the chance of a miss due to the spread of the shot. This is under the assumtion that a partial hit is better than no hit at all.

I would like to hear your opinion on my comments as the training I have received influences my views on this issue.

[Michael Brown]

Michael,

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I have just completed the Combat Shotgun training course and it proved to me that a shotgun from a slung (cruiser safe) position can beat a handgun out of the holster getting into action, firing its first round. The standard single 12 ga OO Buck round at pistol range has an immediate stopping effect on what it hits compared to multiple shots from some caliber handguns(ie 8 .32cal bullets/pellets hitting target simutaniously). A shotgun loaded with #4 Shot turkey loads at 15 yards is still devastating to soft tissue yet does not penetrate structure walls.

I would also like to make a point of self defense shots are normally not done under range conditions. High stress leads to inacuracy in shoot situations. Where a shotgun loaded with any scattering shot will reduce the chance of a miss due to the spread of the shot. This is under the assumtion that a partial hit is better than no hit at all.

I would like to hear your opinion on my comments as the training I have received influences my views on this issue.

Your position disregards the common circumstances in which firearms are deployed.

1) In order to have a long gun, you must have the foresight to know you'll need it. Very few police shootings and almost no out of home citizen shootings fall into this catagory. If you knew you were going to a firefight, why wouldn't you maximize the distance between yourself and your opponent? To do that optimally you need a weapon that has a performance envelope past 20 yards. While select-a-slug is taught commonly (and with dubious success), I defy any instructor to suggest that shooting a slug loaded shotgun is easier than an M4.

2) Do a rough calculation of how long it would take for someone to get from outside your front door to your bedroom. For most, not all, its not much time and deploying a shotgun under those circumstances is chancey at best. One has to step outside the frame of the photos in gun magazines and look at the situation realistically. At kissing distance, a shotgun is a liability not a strength.

3) Regarding shot spread, shotguns at home defense distances are essentially rifles, as the shot spread is minimal. The significant advantage that the shotgun has is stopping power, but as mentioned, it does you little good if you can't get it deployed.

In police situations the spreading of the pattern is a liability not an advantage. In my home, I can calculate the maximum distance for an interior shot. I do not have that luxury when I exit my patrol car.

4) The problem with the example you cite in CLEET's course is that it is done under range conditions. You seem to understand this issue but then you cite a range drill to prove the point. I'm not sure how you get around this. In a fight, your first action should be moving, not drawing. Unslinging a shotgun and bringing it to bear while moving is much more difficult than drawing a pistol while moving and using the shotgun moving is a far greater challenge than a handgun, particularly the all important immediate 90-degree movement.

It is unfortunate that the class you attended is taught with a range mentality rather than a fighting mentality. The problem is that the instructors generally just don't know any better and haven't tested their theories force on force.

Michael Brown

[7point82]

Michael, I'm glad you started this thread. A buddy and I were having this same discussion last week and it's nice to hear a few more opinions. Neither he or I are LEO so we were only discussing it from a self defense perspective. I'm not getting rid of my shotgun any time soon but in most of the scenarios we cooked up if I were retrieving a long gun it would be the carbine over the shotgun.

[OK CTU]

Good points Michael... My only rebuttal is that the shotgun is such a versatile weapon that can fire shot, slug, and less lethal with the ease of loading another round... The shotgun is one of the greatest tools currently available IMHO.

I know if someone broke into my home they would receive 12ga #4 shot at close range. I will continue to back the shotgun until a better more versatile weapon comes along....

BTW I do still love my Glock 22 and 27.

[Michael Brown]

Good points Michael... My only rebuttal is that the shotgun is such a versatile weapon that can fire shot, slug, and less lethal with the ease of loading another round... The shotgun is one of the greatest tools currently available IMHO.

I know if someone broke into my home they would receive 12ga #4 shot at close range. I will continue to back the shotgun until a better more versatile weapon comes along....

BTW I do still love my Glock 22 and 27.

I am really hoping you're not serious about using a single shotgun to shoot lethal as well as less lethal rounds???!!!!!!!

It needs to be one or the other or risk tragedy. Doing otherwise is directly contrary to all best practices in law enforcement.

The idea of selecting a slug is not particularly dangerous but its just not reliable.

If your home set-up is such that you believe you could deploy a shotgun before things went bad, then its a great choice. However for the majority of Oklahomans in single story dwellings, with standard frame doors, and 2 to 4 bedrooms, believing they could get the shotgun going in that time frame is a pipe dream.

I understand people's sentimentality toward a weapon system but it's still not a good reason to choose a weapon system.

Michael Brown

[OK CTU]

I was just pointing out the versatility of a shotgun .. not suggesting a single shotgun for application of lethal and less lethal ammunition.

You have to give me that no other single weapon has the versatility and ease of transition between close range and distance engagement.
:)

[Michael Brown]

I was just pointing out the versatility of a shotgun .. not suggesting a single shotgun for application of lethal and less lethal ammunition.

You have to give me that no other single weapon has the versatility and ease of transition between close range and distance engagement.
:)

I guess my definition of versatile only applies if you really can use all that different ammo in one gun.

A less lethal gun should be for less lethal only. A breeching gun should be for breaching only.

What can a 12 gauge do at 3 to 200 that an M4 or Socom 2 can't? Both rifles are also easier to use packages. If we are talking ease of transition between close and long range, When I need to shoot something at 3 yards with an M4 I pull the trigger. If I need to shoot something at 200, I pull the trigger.

To do the same with a shotgun, one must switch ammunition so I'm not sure how its easier.

To cap off the long range idea, when I went through the CLEET firearms instructor school, I was one of only three candidates to make the slug shot at 200 on a pepper popper. If only three of the best LEO shooters from around the state in a class can make that shot under minimal stress, how good an idea is that?

Now change that weapon to an M4 and I can probably find a half dozen guys in my shift who can make that shot easily.

Turn the tables and take down five targets at close range with an M4 or 12 gauge and you won't see much difference in speed.

Like I said in the original post, a shotgun is superlative inside it's particular envelope but that particular envelope is often poorly defined and over-estimated.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Again,a *very* compelling argument against the 'guage' and for thr M4(gery).

Although I do not agree with Mike on many issues,I take his tactical advice to the bank every time.
I'm sure he would gladly welcome anyone who would like to test his theories,to come out and try them out in real time training.
:anyone:

[brennan]

What exactly is the select a slug theory.

[Michael Brown]

What exactly is the select a slug theory.

It is the practice of loading a slug into either the magazine tube or the camber of a shotgun, while the shotgun is buckshot loaded, in order to make a longer precise shot.

The problem with the practice is that under stress loading a shotgun is difficult and counting on your single slug round to do the job is chancey while someone is shooting at you.

Of all the police shootings that occur annually, researchers have only been able to identify a couple cases where it was used succesfully.

Michael Brown

[Michael Brown]

I'm sure he would gladly welcome anyone who would like to test his theories,to come out and try them out in real time training.
:anyone:

This is really what its all about.

I'm not wedded to any of my beliefs and do not possess any sentimentality towards anything I do in training.

I defend my beliefs because I think they're right, not just because they're my own.

If someone has a better way of doing things, I always adopt it. Changing one's own beliefs is one of the hardest yet most rewarding things we can do.

Michael Brown

[J.P.]

Changing one's own beliefs is one of the hardest yet most rewarding things we can do.

AMEN,brother.