USPSA vs IPSC

[IDtheTarget]

My wife and I went to our first pistol competition last night at H&H, and it was a BLAST! We enjoyed ourselves so much that we would like to do it again and join so that we can start getting ranked, etc.

I started doing a little research, and some of the stuff that happened last night didn't show up on the IPSC website. For instance, my wife was entered in a "Single Stack" division with her Kimber 9mm Pro Carry II. That division doesn't show up in the IPSC web page anywhere that I've been able to find, but when I found the link to USPSA, it is on *their* web page.

I'd thought that USPSA was part of IPSC. Is this the case? If so, is USPSA allowed different rules than IPSC? And if we want to shoot, both at H&H and elsewhere, should we join USPSA or IPSC? I saw where USPSA's website said that membership in their organization includes membership in the IPSC, but the membership form was missing some info that IPSC has on their form (such as an "alias").

Maybe I'm getting too into this. :) But I want to ensure that (1) I'm reading the correct rules manuals, and that (2) my wife and I don't read the wrong rules and set ourselves up for failure at the next or subsequent matches.

Thanks, all!

[ERIC FUSON]

Uspsa Is The American Version Of Ipsc. All Matches In The Us Will Be Uspsa Rules Unless It Is An International Match. Your Membership Should Run Through Uspsa As Well As The Uspsa Rule Book. Most Rules Are The Same, However The Diffrences Can Really Screw With You If You Try To Learn Both

[olyeller]

Unless youre jetting to Brazil or the Czech Republic to shoot a match, everything youll ever need to know is at www.uspsa.org .
We shot an "IPSC" type match, and it was sanctioned under the uspsa.
I may have met you last night, welcome!

It was fun having females around, I dont feel like a 16yo nerd playing Dungeons and Dragons when there are women present aat a match!

[olyeller]

I suppose I should mention that the "single-stack" uspsa division is newly created, and still provisional (on probation to see if it will be popular).
You will not be able to get classified in s.s until it becomes official. So you can either shoot s.s. as an unclassified member and wait until 2007 when it may become official, or shoot in another division with your single stack. A popular option is to get 10round mags and shoot in Limited 10 division.
I believe metalform is making a 10rd mag for 9mm 1911's.

[IDtheTarget]

Thanks! Okay, I'll start reading the USPSA rules then.

The 10-round mag idea is pretty good. She has a hard time firmly seating her current mags. I can't remember if they're 7 or 8 or 9-rounds. They're metalform, but at least one is causing her some grief. Not cool considering (1) that I paid $35 each, and (2) that her life may depend upon them some day. I'd like something that sticks out just a little more so that she can firmly seat them.

[Buzzdraw]

Like he said, learn the USPSA rules and ignore the IPSC version of the same rule. Provisional Single Stack scores do go into US HQ and will be retroactively used to establish a classification for you (in that class) if: 1. you shoot as a USPSA member ($35/yr with other options available) AND 2. if USPSA does decide to convert it to a permanent division.

From time to time, I shoot my 9mm 1911 in Limited 10 with 9 round mags. I shoot it Minor power factor (in that Division it takes 10mm caliber & up to be eligible for loading up to Major) and know I have to hit the A zone to do well. That also means I can use the inexpensive factory 9mm in 115 and 124 gr.

A 10 rd 9mm doesn’t show on Metalform’s website, but they may well be about to introduce one. A phone call to them might help answer that.

Metalform https://www.metalformmagazines.com/style.asp makes good 9mm mags. Personally I prefer the Springfield front ramp style, but others prefer the welded base, rear-spacer model. Avoid the Pachmayr 10 rd 9mm mags that you may encounter. Regardless, get a welded baseplate with a screwed on bumper pad. Some folk use 10 rd 38 super mags with their 9mm with some success. Avoid the Metalform 10 rounders with the ORANGE follower; not dependable in either caliber in my experience .

It is rare that 9 round capacity puts you in significant disadvantage in Limited 10 division.

9mm mags (any maker's for 1911) are finicky to get adjusted and running 100%, but can be done with a little effort. The 9mm Luger cartridge is sharply tapered and is a good bit shorter than the .45 ACP cartridge for which the gun is originally designed, causing feeding challenges for this 100 yr old design.

[chicane]

Hey IDtheTarget,
I shot with you guys last night. I was the young skinny guy with the OD green shirt, I think you were talking with your wife about my ear protection in stage 4?

How did you like the 2 "run-n-gun" stages? I had a bunch of fun, and did better than I thought.

[MarkV]

I was the bald guy (blue shirt and cargo shorts) in the other group probably mumbling something about 9 rounds in my mag. :)

[chicane]

See what happens when you start talkin to them women!

Thats ok, I missed a reload and the slide locked back, Then on the next reload I jumped into the box with barrier in front of it and racked the slide for no reason what so ever. I already had a round in the chamber, But since I had to rack the slide the last time, I did it again. (If anyone asks, I felt that the gun was too light, So I knew that the round in the chamber HAD to be a bad round!)

[IDtheTarget]

Buzzdraw: I'll check out metalform's website. I'm pretty sure that that's what I bought her, but I may have bought the wrong kind. I know that they'll purr along for awhile, and just when we thing that they're reliable they'll turn around and bite her.

Chicane: If you're the guy I think you are, we were actually talking about your wrap-around eye protection. I was suggesting to my wife that we get her something like that, but I'd forgotten that the glasses that she wears have a prescription tint. Nice to meet you!

Kim's been teasing me that she shot more accurately than I did the other night...so I've started hitting the range more often. :) I need to start hitting those "A"s more often... :)

[IDtheTarget]

MarkV: Are you Patty's husband?

[chicane]

Ahh... That is correct. I herd wrap around and I thought you were talking about my ear plugs. That was me though.

My wife has expressed interest in shooting the next match. If she beats me, Not only will she rub it in, But everyone that works at H&H will, and so will all my friends. I better get to practicing ASAP!

[chicane]

MarkV: Are you Patty's husband?

Negative. Mark was in the other group. He was the other bald guy, shooting the XD45.

[IDtheTarget]

Ahh... That is correct. I herd wrap around and I thought you were talking about my ear plugs. That was me though.

My wife has expressed interest in shooting the next match. If she beats me, Not only will she rub it in, But everyone that works at H&H will, and so will all my friends. I better get to practicing ASAP!

I'm happy and proud of my wife's shooting skills. If nothing else, it gives me great peace of mind knowing that anybody who messes with her will pull back a bloody stump, as their corpse falls to the floor. This is especially comforting to me while on military duty.

Plus, it spurs me to improve upon my own skills. :thumb:

[MarkV]

Negative. Mark was in the other group. He was the other bald guy, shooting the XD45.

That is correct sir. Next time it might be an XD40 in Limited 10.

[olyeller]

That is correct sir. Next time it might be an XD40 in Limited 10.

Yep, the bald guy with the red arm jewelry.:drooling:

[sash]

I enjoyed meeting both you and your wife at the match. I shot in your squad (Green and Black 1911 -- I helped with scorekeeping and timing). You have been well-directed to uspsa.org, and can join online. If you will tell Lewis at H&H that you are joining, he can write "Pending" for your USPSA number on the classifier scores he is sending to USPSA. That way, your scores will be counted toward your classifications when your membership is processed. As was noted above, the single stack scores will be held until the decision is made whether to "officially" adopt the division. That decision should be made early in the year.

Have fun, and I hope to see you at more matches, both at H&H and at OKC Gun Club in Arcadia.

[MarkV]

Yep, the bald guy with the red arm jewelry.:drooling:

I have ink on me all the time. Just a hazard of the job. :D

[IDtheTarget]

OKC Gun Club in Arcadia also has USPSA matches? When are they, and do you have to be a member of the club to shoot in the matches?

[1911user]

OKC Gun Club in Arcadia also has USPSA matches? When are they, and do you have to be a member of the club to shoot in the matches?
1st Sat. every month. 6 stages. $15 for non-members. sign-up starts at 9:45. There are typically 50-60 shooters. It's nice match to attend.

[IDtheTarget]

Darn. My wife works on Saturdays...We'll have to see what we can do.

I'm not opposed to going to a match without her, but I'm positive that it's a whole lot more fun *with* her! :)

[pstmstr]

Enjoyed the match, the thing is, it's Tuesday and still no scores posted on the web. :nolike:

[sonny74]

The guy who in charge of the web site is very inconsistent. Sometime he post the scores the next day after the match and one time he posted them 3 weeks later :nolike: .

[IDtheTarget]

I don't know, Nick wasn't looking good/happy yesterday. Could be he wasn't feeling well and wasn't able to post the scores.

[olyeller]

I have ink on me all the time. Just a hazard of the job. :D

I meant the little cutie. duh.

[MarkV]

I meant the little cutie. duh.

Oh ya sorry. She came over last night and we cleaned our guns together. :)

[pstmstr]

they've got plenty of people working there to get the scores posted timely if they're going to charge $15 for only 4 stages. OKC Gun club has over 60 shooters and always gets them posted by the end of the next day.

[FAL guy]

they've got plenty of people working there to get the scores posted timely if they're going to charge $15 for only 4 stages. OKC Gun club has over 60 shooters and always gets them posted by the end of the next day.

That comparison is apples and oranges. H&H is running a full time business as well as offering an after hours IPSC match. Stephen is the computer Guru and he is busy, busy getting ready to sell safes at the state fair.

Has the mail ever been late?

[chicane]

Is it going to kill you to wait a few days?

I paid them extra to postpone it... So everybody has to wait longer to make fun of me.

[SGTLT]

Nick does not post the scores, he is just kind enough to do the match scorekeeping. The person who does the scorekeeping has many other dutys and stays very busy. We are doing the best we can, we all have other dutys at the range not just the match.

[sonny74]

Cool, the scores are up. I did better than I thought considering it's my first time shooting my new Beretta for production.

[pstmstr]

yes the mail is late sometimes, too often these days it seems due to some of our sorry employees we can't seem to fire. Don't get me started on that. :nolike: Never more than a day or so though. :thumb:
The scores are up, thanks!
I agree that H&H has many things other than just a match to run. They made $325 for 4 stages Sunday night, I don't think it's too much to ask that scores which are available Sunday night get posted to the web sometime the next day. I enjoy the match and most of the people there are very nice to work with every time I go in, I just like to see the results of the match as I think a lot of others do as well. If someone feels that's unreasonable, sorry. It has taken as long as a week to post the scores, the May match I believe.

[FAL guy]

They made $325 for 4 stages Sunday night.

How do you know that?

Something you might consider in the future. Those of us that stayed afterwards and helped put up props and clean up got to see the scores before we left.:contract:

[IDtheTarget]

Nick does not post the scores, he is just kind enough to do the match scorekeeping. The person who does the scorekeeping has many other dutys and stays very busy. We are doing the best we can, we all have other dutys at the range not just the match.

I think that anybody willing to stick around and put the scores on the computer while (1) his wife is anxious for him to get home, and (2) he doesn't even get to shoot is #1 in my book. In the Army we call that "Selfless Service", and is one of the seven Army Values. :thumb:

Kim and I stuck around and helped put stuff up, and I enjoyed seeing our overall scores immediately. I also enjoyed seeing them online so that I could see how I did on each stage. I'm reading the rules now so that I can see how my score was generated. :)

I don't care if H&H made $1 or $1,000. We really enjoyed ourselves, and for $15 each it was cheaper than a movie, for longer than we'd have been at the movie. I'm just grateful that they hold the matches. Heck, I *want* them to make a profit! If they make a profit then they'll have more incentive to continue holding the matches! :)

As for how long it takes them to post the scores, well, yeah I'm impatient like the next guy and want to see them NOW, dangit! LOL But since I'm always willing to help tear down, I guess that won't really be a problem.

[ERIC FUSON]

Having Run Matches Before, Its Easy To Underestimate How Much Work Goes Into One. I Appreciate All The Efforts People Put Into Futhering This And Other Great Shooting Sports. Without Those People We Would All Be One Step Closer To Loosing Out Right To Keep And Bear Arms.... Keep Up The Good Work H&h

[pstmstr]

You guys sure are defensive. I helped set up and change the stages over while some people stood around shooting the breeze. I also scored almost every shooter so I think I contributed my share. I guess you'd prefer to make excuses as to why it has taken as long as 3 weeks to do something as simple as put the scores, that are available on Sunday night, posted to the web anytime during the next day. I have stayed around many times and helped tear down while some of the H&H guys hung out in the air conditioned cash register area telling stories to each other. I know they made $375 because they had 25 shooters at $15 each. If you think I'm the only one who thinks the scores are posted less than timely, you're kidding yourselves. Tell you what though, give me access to your web site and have the scores ready by noon Monday, I'll come by and put them on the web for you if it's that tough for someone there to get accomplished. I stopped by Tuesday morning to have Chris put some sights on for me, asked about the scores, and no one could even find them. I'm sure you think I'm a big whiner and I know putting on a match is not as easy as I make it out to be but I think people would like to see the scores posted timely. Tuesday wasn't bad, it has taken much longer than that sometimes.

[FAL guy]

They made $325 for 4 stages Sunday night.

I know they made $375 because they had 25 shooters at $15 each.

Make up your mind would you?



Tell you what though, give me access to your web site ....

It's not my website. I used to shoot a bunch with OKCIDPA and it took forever to get the scores posted. I got used to it. Please, don't take me wrong here...I fully support your right to whine. :)

[pstmstr]

I'll stop whining. If everyone else thinks its ok to have the scores posted sometime, fine. I'm willing to do it the next day each month for free. I don't know the true amount, it should be 375 if everyone paid 15. I don't know if everyone who shot and got a score posted paid or not. Sorry for my whining, I'll shut up now. Maybe someone fro h and h will let me know if they need help posting the scores.

[IDtheTarget]

As you read my below post, please remember that I don't work for H&H, have no stock or other financial interest in their business. I am simply a happy customer. :)

You guys sure are defensive.

Nope, not defensive. Just pointing out that your point of view is not the only one with regards to this issue.

I guess you'd prefer to make excuses as to why it has taken as long as 3 weeks to do something as simple as put the scores, that are available on Sunday night, posted to the web anytime during the next day.

No excuses. The guy got the scores posted within a very reasonable time. Do not forget that he's a volunteer. H&H does not pay him to post those scores.

I have stayed around many times and helped tear down while some of the H&H guys hung out in the air conditioned cash register area telling stories to each other. I know they made $375 because they had 25 shooters at $15 each.
From the 2004 Handgun Rules book from the USPSA website:

PRACTICAL SHOOTING IS A VOLUNTEER SPORT
If You Aren’t Helping Who Is?
Outside the national office there are only two USPSA members who are paid
by the organization, the elected president and the first vice president, head of NROI. All the local club officials: RO’s, stats officers, newsletter editors, and setup Volunteers receive no pay. The fee you pay at your local match goes to:
- Host club fees - Targets
- Tape - Timers
- Props - Steel
- Printing score cards - Printing results
- Mailing results - USPSA Fees
- Section fees


I bet H&H loses money on the deal, when you factor in the above and utilities. I bet it's expensive to run those lights and air system for the extra four hours that we're in there. The employees helping out aren't doing it for pay, they're doing it because they enjoy the sport and are willing to hang out and/or volunteer.

If you think I'm the only one who thinks the scores are posted less than timely, you're kidding yourselves.

Possibly. But heck, H&H doesn't have to host this and are probably losing money on the deal. And my mom taught me that when somebody's doing you a favor you don't gripe. Constructive criticism with polite suggestions as to how to make a specific point better, sure. Otherwise (as she put it), "don't look a gift horse in the mouth."


Tell you what though, give me access to your web site and have the scores ready by noon Monday, I'll come by and put them on the web for you if it's that tough for someone there to get accomplished. I stopped by Tuesday morning to have Chris put some sights on for me, asked about the scores, and no one could even find them.

Somehow I think that's not gonna happen. :)

I'm sure you think I'm a big whiner and I know putting on a match is not as easy as I make it out to be but I think people would like to see the scores posted timely. Tuesday wasn't bad, it has taken much longer than that sometimes.

My suggestion, meant in a good way. If you want your score immediately, hang around until Nick or whoever is running the computer that night has them ready. Otherwise, practice your patience. :thumb:

[pstmstr]

Hey ID, it was your first match and I appreciate that you enjoyed the match, as do I. I have been coming since March, do help set up, score, whatever else is needed. I am also willing to post the scores on the web if they need help with that. As I said, I'm done whining, hope to see you at future matches as well. Shooting is great fun, much better than those liberal hollywood movies we would have spent our $15 like you mentioned. If you're the type who likes to get in the last word, feel free to cut and paste some more of my posts, I'm done with this one. I've offered a viable solution to what some see as a problem, we'll see what happens.

[PARAEMT]

POSTMASTER

We here at H&H enjoy the sport so much that we are willing to loose money to satisfy the needs of those who shoot the match. We will NOT give you access to our web site for any reason. We don't want stop the match's, but we will if we have any more problems with people not helping in the clean up effort. We did not make $375 on the match uspsa charges $4 for each shooter we also have to pay for the: targets, tape, stands and the score cards, I have to use my personal laptop for doing the scores so be happy with the two day turn around.

[pstmstr]

I can be happy with a 2 day turnaround, welcome to OK Shooters, good to see we generated enough interest for your first post. :) Appreciate your work and I like shooting the match. I was just offering to help if you guys needed it. Good to see it's going to be taken care of.

[IDtheTarget]

We don't want stop the match's, but we will if we have any more problems with people not helping in the clean up effort.

Was there a problem with not enough people helping with the cleanup? I've only been there the one time, but it seemed like we got everything put away pretty quickly...

I seriously hope that you folks aren't considering canceling the matches. It's the most fun my wife and I have had in a long time. (in public! get your minds out of the gutter! :smack: :fallangel

[SGTLT]

Cleanup went just fine for the last two months I am thankfull for all the help. It makes the match work a lot smoother and we get out a lot quicker after the match is over. I am also willing to look at any course of fire anybody would like to possably shoot.

[olyeller]

whoa, I missed the rest of this thread.
H&H - thanks a bunch! The matches are just the thing to end a week.
We shooters are impatient by nature; if we werent we wouldnt buy so many guns!
:)

[pstmstr]

I'm not buying any more guns, I'm not buying any more guns, anyone have a deal on a gun. :)

I probably blew this whole thing out of proportion and ticked a few people off, a couple of days is no big deal. When I went down Tuesday to look for the scores and they couldn't find them, that got to me. Sorry, I am impatient and want to see how bad I did as soon as possible. :lookaroun