.22lr for self defense

[DrBaker]

Every forum I've seen is loaded with people who say you gotta use 40sw or 45acp or whatever.

For concealed carry I choose between g26 9mm, g30 45acp, and sw642 38sp. I feel comfortable with any of these as long as I do my part.

My wife is considering taking the carry class. I got her a P3AT and she thinks it has too much snap. I won't get rid of it because it makes an awesome deep deep deep concealment piece.

The only thing she likes to shoot is .22lr. Accuracy is not bad at all in self defense distances. She has shot a few different types of guns and several different calibers.

I guess my thoughts are .22 is better than nothing. Anyone else care to share?

[stepper]

I feel the same way. .22's can do alot of damage too, they would definately stop somebody from attacking! I wouldn't mind having the S&W 351PD. Taurus has some nice .22 revolvers too.

Go for it!

[10mm1911]

Well, I suppose that .22 LR is better than saying, "Please, Sir, don't do that to me," but it will never be on my preferred list. All ballistic issues aside, I've had such bad luck with poorly primed ammo that I will never use it for serious purposes. I once had a 500 round brick that contained 4 dud rounds. It's kinda irritating when it fails to fire at the range, but a defense gun HAS to go off, every time!

[bfoster]

You probably purchased your P3AT, in part, because it's light, and easily concealed. But there is a penalty to shooting such a light .380: "snap" as your wife says.

I've just weighed 3 steel .380's. They average a bit over double what your unloaded P3AT weighs (a bit over a pound, unloaded).

Run the numbers. Heavier pistols do produce considerably less recoil for any given cartridge; and what is sometimes more important, less percieved recoil.

One other point: any handgun with removable stocks can have stocks fitted to it that accomodate the hand of an individual shooter. This can go a long way to increasing comfort (as well as the shooters performance).

(If you've never read the chapter in Walter Roper's Pistol and Revolver Shooting, Macmillian, New York, New York, 1945 that covers handgun stocks you might find this of interest)

Bob

[Michael Brown]

You are better served with a good fixed blade knife than a 22lr for self-defense purposes.

In self-defense the purpose of the firearm is to cause a halt to violent action. A 22lr is plenty lethal, it just doesn't have enough shock value to be of a great deal of help compared to a baseball bat or a good fixed blade.

I'd suggest a heavier firearm and some hand-strengthening exercises.

Michael Brown

[Mack45]

Mike,
What are your thoughts about 32 acp silvertips. Won't knock them off their feet but should have more "shock value" than .22 lr. I've heard that 32 is the minimum for expansion with the Winchester silvertips.
Mack45

[SMS]

I'd be hesitant to put a .22 in my wifes hands. I thought about it for the same reason as you DrBaker, but in the end I have zero confidence in the .22 stopping a determined attacker.

.22 might do the trick if you could put the rounds in a critical spot, but under stress, low light, and from a non-traditional shooting stance could the funny-little-honey pull that off? My wifes a decent shot, but she's to valuable to risk it. I've been conditioning her to the recoil of a 9MM and have at least got her warmed up to the .380.

Good luck.

[Michael Brown]

I'm of the opinion that 380/38 SPL/9x18 is the bare minimum. However that's not based on scientific evidence but rather what a responsible person can learn to use and carry well.

For ballistic info, I'd check Tactical Forums' Terminal Ballistics section.

Michael Brown

[okla-lawman]

I used to work at a gun shop years ago. Women would come in there and buy a 2" .38
special. We had a range and would let them go shoot it. Most HATED it!!! I would then let them shoot my Model .66 (4"with trigger job). They would love it. Better sights, better trigger, more weight (less recoil) all equalled hits. they would get confident and then enjoyed shooting it. I could of sold my gun hundreds of times. Usually we would go back into the store and show them other guns like a model .65 with 3" barrel. Do a trigger job on it and they would love it. So you might try something a little bigger like a model 26 glock. Let her shoot, shoot, shoot it. If it feels snappy Sims vibration has a add on decal grip that suppoesedly reduces that snap. it is cheap at about $6, leo.
I have not tried it. Their shotgun pads work really well.

Ref. .22 calibre stopping power. Ballistics writier Evan Marshall (retired Detroit Homicide) says that more people are killed with .22 to .25 calibre weapons than all others. BUT he still would not recommend one for defense. I concur wholeheartedly. I have a way above average experience in terminal wound ballistics. While I might carry
a .22 as onion field insurance never ever as a primary weapon. In my opinion, and those of others, to be a good man stopper the bullet should generate 400 ft/lbs of energy and be able to expend all of that energy into the target. A .22 generates less than 100 ft/lbs. A .22 tends lethality is usuall caused due to the fact that the bullet, if it is capable of entering the body, will bounce around inside the body causing bleeding.
This means (except for a head shot of course) the mechanism of death is exhanguation
not trauma. Do you really want to wait for the guy to have to bleed out?? I have tried/played with many of the .22 ammos. I have used the quick shot brand several times to dispatch varmits. The results on a opossum sized animal is utterly awseome. Death is instantaneous. No exit wounds. I would still not use them for self defense. They like some other ammo would have serious lack of penetration, thus unable to hit a vital organ.

While I agree with Mike that the .380 is the bare minimum for self defense, I think that is with a skilled shooter who can get hits where it counts. In my opinion most shooters
would be far better served with a .38 or 9mm gun. My preference would be for 9mm. Load it with a good hollowpoint in the 115 to 124 grain range, forget the 147 grains.
damage could a rapist do to your wife in that time??

Also have her practice, dry fire so forth. Hand/wrist exercises are a good idea too.

For a look at what actually are good man stoppers you might look at the Strausbergh tests and the more resent Imigration and Naturalization ammo tests.

[stepper]

Interesting comments. I've just always read that a .22 was better than nothing. I would rather have a .22 than nothing at all. I wouldn't want to take a knife to a gunfight.

If a .22 is what you're comfortable shooting and you are accurate with it, I wouldn't hesitate to carry it.

I am more accurate and comfortable with 9mm, so thats what I carry.

[Michael Brown]

"I wouldn't want to take a knife to a gunfight."

Herein lies the problem.

While guns invariably have more shock value because the effective models have ammunition that provides good penetration and also have muzzle blast that can be debilitating at close range, knives are invariably more dangerous to the average person.

In a "gunfight", the operative word is "fight" whether it be with weapons or empty hands. The myth that proportional armament will occur or save you is nothing but that: A myth.

The parameters of criminal assault require extremely close ranges, i.e. touching range for one primary reason: :liklihood of success. The criminal is not there to prove he is a better man than you or that his johnson is bigger. To him its all about getting paid.

Thus if you are targeted for criminal assault, it will likely not matter what type of weapon is used by the criminal. The skill sets required will be the same and this will likely mean some form of empty-hand mitigation until you can get to a firearm or other weapon. Criminals will not get on a bullhorn from ten yard away and yell "Sir! Drop you wallet! You are the target of a mugging!" Chances are you will not even be able to deploy a firearm at the outset just by the nature of a criminal assault.

Don't look at a fight as a specific event involving specific weapons. If you are counting on a 22LR to carry the day, you are carrying a talisman. It may kill your adversary eventually, but that will be no consolation to your loved ones because they lost you too.

Carry enough gun, shoot it often, and practice the REAL skills required for self-defense.

Michael Brown

[mons meg]

Once again, Mr. Brown reminds me again why I am so fortunate to be a big, scary man.


...with num-chuk skills.

[mons meg]

Oh, and on the topic of .32acp Silvertips...I have some info on an informal penetration test. A friend had a Kel Tec P32, which we loaded with .32 silvertips...long story short, they won't go "real far" (scientific term) into a wet phone book. Our recommendation was that the trade off you get of expansion vs. penetration wasn't worth it. Stick with hardball...you get the added peace of mind of smaller chance of misfeeds.

Just one opinion. Of course, I *am* a genius...so take it for what it's worth. :D

[Mack45]

Michael, do you agree with mons meg about the hardball vs silvertips. penepration vs expansion? You guys got me thinking about something a little larger that 32 cal. I was planning on carrying the Tomcat until I gained some confidence about carrying concealed, then graduating up to something like my Combat commander. I went to a local gunshop this weekend and looked at a Glock 36. It is a nice weapon but I think I like the Colt better. And I already own the Colt.
Mack45

[Michael Brown]

I'm not much of a believer in the 32 so I haven't really sought out comparison ammo in that caliber.

That said, I'd check the terminal ballistics forum at Tactical Forums if I wanted good, reliable information about a particular caliber.

Michael Brown

[skyydiver]

I hadn't seen this mentioned, but here's another point, doc. My wife and I got each other matching Walther PPK/S's for wedding gifts. Pretty little things, but a blowback .380 sure is more unpleasant to me to shoot than any :locked breech" autoloader in almost any caliber. In other words, the wife don't shoot the little pretty gun much, but she smokes with her Smith 908, and likes the recoil of the 9 better. Just another thought on the dislike of the .380. You might not have to downsize her if you talk just right about it. Have her try a G19, or a Ladysmith auto.

[mons meg]

That said, I'd check the terminal ballistics forum at Tactical Forums if I wanted good, reliable information about a particular caliber.


Cmon, I gave precise measurements! Are you telling me a wet phone book isn't recognized by the FBI ballistics lab? ;)

Ok, ok, but seriously...here's one link:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/32acp/win32-60st-b3032.htm

Summary: out of a Beretta Tomcat, the JHP silvertips averaged 7.1 inches with .42" expanded diameter, while the denim covered gel resulted in 14 inches with no expansion. This is why I think hardball is the way to go...you're not as likely to get deep enough with the JHP and "properly" wound someone with a vital organ hit, etc. Also, unless your opponent is naked, you're probably not going to get the expansion anyways.

[bulbboy]

I would much rather have a .22 than a knife in a gun fight!