Question for the LEO's only, concerning open carry.

[Pulp]

I know it's a little early to ask this, but just curious. I don't like making LEOs nervous, so I want to know how to do this in the safest manner possible.

If I'm in public and you see I am open carrying and you approach me to ask for my permit, what exactly should I do. I'm figger jumping up and down screaming "It's my right" is not the correct thing to do, nor would be making any sudden movements in the direction of any weapon.

While I don't want to immediately put my hands in surrender fashion, I also think it's a good idea to keep my hands clear of my gun. I would think asking the officer if I could turn around so he/she could see that I'm reaching for my billfold and not my gun would be a good idea, but I'm not an LEO so I really don't know.

Please share with us how you want the situation to be handled from your point of view.

[Glocktogo]

It's going to vary widely from LEO to LEO. Personally, I'll probably take a moment to assess the OC'er before approaching. Then I'll ask how they're doing before getting down to business. I'd appreciate the OC'er keeping their hands away from the gun and mirroring my calm demeanor. At some point I'll mention the OC and ask them if they have a permit. If they've been friendly and state that they do, absent any signs of deception, I may wish them a good day and move on without inspecting the permit.

If I get any signal that makes me uneasy or suspect they're not carrying legally, I'll ask to see the permit and we'll go from there. If they do anything that makes me feel threatened, it will become a Terry Stop. Keep in mind that a Terry Stop may be more broadly interpreted by the courts than most citizens are aware of. For instance, a traffic stop has been viewed as essentially the same as a Terry Stop. Once that contact is complete, absent any probable cause discovered during the Terry Stop, the contact will be concluded. I'll probably recommend to the person who caused the contact to morph into a Terry Stop, an alternative way to handle future contacts to avoid being hassled needlessly and to save other LEO's some stress and unnecessary investigation.

If probable cause is discovered during the stop, depending on the circumstances, a citation will be issued or an arrest made. Hopefully that will never happen. I'm sure that CLEET will notify all agencies of the pending change. The larger and more progressive agencies will conduct training. All agencies should amend their SOP's for OC contacts. So long as it's not deemed "LES" or "FOUO", I'll post up how my agency expects these contacts to be handled when the changes are issued. Keep in mind that no decent policy is going to mandate a rigid procedure. It's expected that the officer's field experience drive their handling of each contact on a case by case basis. That will ensure the safety of the public and the officer more effectively than a rigid policy.

[thegomezclan]

Gllcktogo, I believe it was David2012 in one of the opencarry thread that said that he was going to carry his ID and ccw permit on the outside of his person like in a I'd carrier. What do you think of that idea?

[Danny Tanner]

If I get any signal that makes me uneasy or suspect they're not carrying legally, I'll ask to see the permit and we'll go from there.

I carry my wallet in the rear pocket of the same side I carry my firearm. So, if you were to personally ask me to produce a license, how would you prefer I do so?

I've wondered the same thing, Pulp, and figured if confronted by an officer, I will make it a point to state that my wallet is on the same side of my body as my firearm. I will then ask the officer how he wants me to handle retrieving my wallet, which houses my SDA license.

[aestus]

It's going to vary from officer to officer. It's no different in the case of being pulled over while carrying concealed currently. Some cops are cool about it and some are hit with an anxiety attack.

Typically, the old timers are the coolest ones. I was pulled over once and didn't care one way or another and was cool the whole time. I told him I was CCL'ing and he was like "Yep, that's important bit of info. Don't show it to me and I won't show you mine."

Another time I was pulled over, the officer asked me if it was loaded and if it was hot (round in the chamber.) I responded yes. He then instructed me to remove my firearm from my holster and hand him the firearm. This made me a little nervous. He was basically asking me to draw my firearm out of my holster and hand it towards him. I nervously grabbed the very end of the grip towards the magazine and awkwardly handed him the gun so the muzzle was not pointing at him or me. He took my firearm with my license and CCL. Maybe he ran the serial on the firearm, who knows. Anyways, when he handed the gun back, he had completely unloaded all of my ammo from the magazine. Was a little annoying since I rotate the ammo from the chamber to the bottom of the mag after 3 or 4 re-chamberings of a round and it totally caused me to lose the bullet order in the mag.

What really worried me was when I was pulled over in Texas on my way to Dallas. The county police asked me to step out of my vehicle. I informed him that I was carrying. At first he was ok and didn't ask to see the gun. After I handed him my license and CCL, he looks at me and asks me to lift my shirt and to show my firearm. This was while outside on the shoulder of I-35 South with tons of cars passing by me. I didn't know if this was a trick question or not, honestly. Wasn't sure if he was essentially ordering me to break the law by brandishing my weapon out in public... That one really weirded me out.

I've had friends that have had no so good encounters with LEO. For the most part, I've had positive experience and a couple of weird ones.

Of course, I have a couple of friends who are are LEO throughout Oklahoma. One buddy of mine pulls up next to me while I was at a gas station made it a point to make as much commotion as possible and he cuffed me put me in the back seat of his car. Then asks me "Hey man, wanna see a Redhawks game up in the city next week?" Still owe him for that one...

Anyways, went off on a tangent a bit. I think open carry might be a bit rough on the early adopters. Some LEO's will be cool about it, but some may react very aggressively. Things will smooth out once there is set protocol on how to handle open carry and people become more comfortable.

[thegomezclan]

Maybe if police cheifs and county sheriff call their counterpart in states that have opencarry and see what is their policies are?

[FireCop203]

Glocktogo, I was doing good till you said "LES" or "FOUO". Translation? That's two that I can't think of the meaning to.

Anywho, It's nice that the OC has the thoughts of the LEO in mind. Remember that most people don't want any contact with the police unless they called them and then they want them there yesterday. No one wants to see the red and blues in their mirror or a uniform and a gun walking toward them.

The LEO has to deal with a lot of attitudes and actions during any contact and some handle it different than others. Each person is different and the contact may be different for each one. I know I've never had the exact same words or actions out of any two people that I've contacted. The LEO has to balance between cautious and courteous and it's not easy to do.

I've always been pro 2A and never had a problem with a gun being in someones possession or being carried unless it was pointed at me. BUT, you don't know who that person is and you have to be careful.

The contacts I've had have always followed the rules and the contacts have been pleasant. I usually ask what they are carrying, what caliber, how do they like it, etc. It usually calms the person down. Your actions dictate their actions. It works both ways.

To tell an old story that occurred before even concealed carry was in effect. I initiated a traffic stop. The guy was speeding. 62 in a 45. I lit him up and he pulled over. As soon as he stopped, he stepped quickly out of his truck and started to walk towards my car. Now, this is usually an indicator of someone who has either been stopped by Troopers a LOT or who has something in the vehicle that they don't want me to see. I walked up, made contact and asked for his DL and Insurance verification. He said that the Insurance Verification was in the glove compartment. I said, "OK, lets go get it".

As we were walking towards the passenger side of the truck, I saw him glancing over his left shoulder like he was trying to see where I was. (alarm bells start going off in my head) While he was using his keys to unlock the door, I moved quietly over to his right side. When he opened the door I saw a double barrel shotgun lying on the seat. He looked to his left and I wasn't where he expected me to be. At this point I told him to move to the tailgate and put his hands on the tailgate and keep them there where I could see them. He did. I reached inside the truck, picked it up and checked to see that it was unloaded and it was. Yes, I ran the serial number. Stolen guns and weapons being used in violent acts are not uncommon in that part of the county.

It came back clear and I left it lying there on the seat. I got his Insurance verification and walked to the rear of the truck where he was standing. I gave him a quick pat down at the rear of the truck and told him to stay there. I also told him that it would have been in his best interest both legally and health wise to let an officer know that he had a gun in the vehicle. All he said was "OK". I returned to my car, ran his DL and tag for expiration's and flags and checked for warrants. Everything came back clear. I write out the ticket and approach him to finish the contact. I tell him that I need his signature, it's not an admission of guilt, just a promise to appear in court or have the ticket paid by such and such date.

Now, he starts yelling at me. "I HAVE SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, I CAN LEGALLY CARRY AND TRANSPORT THAT SHOTGUN FROM A PLACE OF SHOOTING TO MY HOME, YOU CAN'T CHARGE ME FOR THIS!" I say "Sir, this citation has nothing to do with the gun. It's for speeding! I realize that you were carrying the gun in a legal fashion and that's the reason there are no charges for any type of that offense. You still need to tell the officer when you have a gun in the vehicle. It's for MY safety and YOURS!

He turned red, ducked his head and said "Oh". He signed the ticket, took his copy, got in his truck and left at a slower speed and I never saw him again.

[ExSniper]

Law Enforcement Sensitive
For Official Use Only

[MLRyan]

I've wondered the same thing, Pulp, and figured if confronted by an officer, I will make it a point to state that my wallet is on the same side of my body as my firearm. I will then ask the officer how he wants me to handle retrieving my wallet, which houses my SDA license.

This is always a good idea. If I'm stopped, I try to let the LEO know everything I'm doing. "I'm reaching for my ID...I'm going to get my insurance out of the glovebox now...etc...."

[TerryMiller]

First of all, I will now and forever be very nervous with the terminology of "Terry Stop." Thanks, Glocktogo.

While it wouldn't apply with open carry because of the weapon being visible, I had always figured that if I were stopped and I notified the officer of my concealed carry, I also intended to inform him of the location of my weapon. That way, if I told him it was on my right hip, he would be less nervous seeing me reach for my wallet on my left side.

However, thanks to Pulp for asking the question so we can all have an idea of how to conduct ourselves, even though I will likely never open carry unless I am in the woods or walking around in rural areas.

[Jefpainthorse]

You let them know? Heck --- I ask for permission. During a stop the "stop-e" is not running the show.

My system works... hands on the wheel when he walks up. SDA and DL in hand... and regardless of how he greets me... the first answer is "I am legally armed, how do you want me to proceed?

Good answer... the word gun (panic!) never gets uttered.. and we default "authority" to the Alpha dog with guns, clubs, radios and buddies.

The second thing he asks is "wheres it at"... "Right hip", "glovebox" or "under the seat". Clearly... not the time to start a big conversation...keep it short and sweet. If he wants any thing at that point he will tell you and give a little guidance..."like dont touch the gun in the console..but I need your insurance..."

[TerryMiller]

Actually, I seldom ever get stopped, so to date I've done none of the above mentioned procedure of notification. However, I am a somewhat overweight fellow and I have to lean over pretty good to reach my wallet. If I am doing so while the officer is approaching my vehicle, what is he likely to think? Perhaps that I might be reaching for a weapon?

When I am stopped at night, I turn on the interior lights of my vehicle so the officer can clearly see inside as he approaches. When he arrives, my window will be open, my hands are on the wheel, and my wife's hands (if she is present) will be clearly seen on her lap.

So, is that the wrong procedure to follow? It is designed to let the officer know that there is NO threat in my vehicle. I figure that a "comfortable" officer is better than one that is "hyped" up with a possible danger threat. My intention to mention where the weapon is located is also to help make the officer comfortable.

[NikatKimber]

Once again, I don't think much changes from concealed carry to open carry.

I think it might actually be easier.

Informing the officer that you are carrying is done upon visual contact - you don't have to worry about notifying, unless for some reason you think the officer hasn't noticed.

The officer knows you have it, and knows where it is. He can keep an eye on it, and he knows when you are, or hopefully aren't, reaching for it.

The only tension I could see is that you are now on even footing with the officer as far as draw speed goes.

And as far as experiences go, the only slightly weird contact I've had with a LEO, was him saying "Just remember, I can draw faster than you."

*sigh* I can just see something like that coming across as a challenge. I really wanted to tell him that was an extremely dumb thing to say, but I refrained.

[sanjuro893]

I asked this in another thread but need to ask it here because I honestly don't know: Does just carrying a firearm on your hip after Nov 1st qualify as probable cause and the need to initiate contact to see if they are properly licensed or not?

[twotonevert]

Well, I am not a LEO, but I have several friends, BA PD, TPD and OHP. A few are riding buddies of mine. Maybe since I hear some of things they have to go through to do their jobs, I do whatever I can to make a LEO feel at ease if and when I am stopped. What has worked for me is notifying them I am armed at first contact and I always hand both drivers and CC licenses to them at the same time. I have never had a bad encounter. I cant see a LEO thinking I nor any licensed citizen are a threat when we openly admit we armed and licensed to do so.