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  1. #1

    Default Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    When reading the "POTUS Changes his mind on AWB" thread the thought came to me that a universal background check law would be unenforceable. Think about it, if you were going to sell a gun you bought say in the 70's to your neighbor would you run a background check? The gun isn't on anybody's books as it was bought before background checks were required and you know your neighbor. I just don't see how it could be enforceable.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Speed limits are also unenforceable, as a practical matter, at most times and in most places - so law enforcement picks key locations. I suspect there will be a law change that mandates NICS checks for all Gun Show sales - a largely symbolic measure but it would allow the President's team to claim a victory. I hope they don't try to limit all private sales or require NICS for all private sales - just what we need another unenforceable symbolic law that simply turns law abiding citizens into criminals overnight.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by BReeves View Post
    When reading the "POTUS Changes his mind on AWB" thread the thought came to me that a universal background check law would be unenforceable. Think about it, if you were going to sell a gun you bought say in the 70's to your neighbor would you run a background check? The gun isn't on anybody's books as it was bought before background checks were required and you know your neighbor. I just don't see how it could be enforceable.
    Exactly...so the DOJ will say to Congress " to enforce your law, we need to keep track of all guns ". Obama can then issue an Executive Order that calls for all folks to register their guns. Since this will be an EO that directly implements a law passed by Congress,
    Bottom line: Universal Background checks MUST be stopped.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Or the authors of such a law - could include language to the effect of "No part of this law shall be deemed to require, authorize, or allow gun registration of any type" - that type of clause is very common in laws.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by mugsy View Post
    Or the authors of such a law - could include language to the effect of "No part of this law shall be deemed to require, authorize, or allow gun registration of any type" - that type of clause is very common in laws.
    Congress may try to contain the executive power with a statement like that. However, In order to execute the law they will have to track guns somehow. Instead of registration, they will call it "firearm safety background check " database or some such term.
    Any law passed by Congress will be interpreted to take away gun rights, under the current POTUS. The last thing we want to do is give the current DOJ and POTUS any more power than they already have. Just my 2 cents.
    Newtown was not our fault. we are the good guys...we practice gun safety and legal responsible ownership. Why should our rights be further restricted in any way...more than they already have been? We have 20,000+ laws on the books already. We have legal gun owners executing gymnastics when they go to school zones, in order to tread carefully on the side of the law. We have buildings that are "GUN FREE ZONES" killing zones...except the federal gun free zones are protected by armed guards, whereas our schools are defenseless.
    If a law needs to be changed, it is to make our schools better equipped to handle threats.
    WITHOUT another federal gun totin' school-guard bureaucracy...which is what they will push. Watch for it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by abajaj11 View Post
    If a law needs to be changed, it is to make our schools better equipped to handle threats.
    WITHOUT another federal gun totin' school-guard bureaucracy...which is what they will push. Watch for it.
    Another big government bureaucracy wouldn't surprise me one bit. Removing gun free zones simply makes too much sense for our head-in-the-sand elected officials to grasp.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    I still don't think an EO can "stretch" the law like that, especially considering gun registries are currently against Federal law, right?
    The 22" cannon accepted balls that weighed about 350 lb; the Mons Meg could only be fired 8-10 times a day due to the tremendous heat generated by the powder charge required.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by mons meg View Post
    I still don't think an EO can "stretch" the law like that, especially considering gun registries are currently against Federal law, right?
    Who would have thought that GM bondholders could have their property rights violated because the President said to do it? Put nothing past this administration and Dept of Justice.

    I'd like to see someone more knowledgeable than me draft up some letters to our reps explaining why they need to totally oppose universal background checks. - And post them here of course.

    Additionally, perhaps it would be a good idea to advocate for the elimination of the federal Gun-free Schools Zone Act in the same letter. We need to give the people responsible for the safety of our kids the option of having the tools needed to effectively do it. The federal government has in part created the problem of school shootings and needs to reverse course and stop meddling with the second amendment.
    I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem. Thomas Jefferson

    Fair Tax - Boost the economy and shrink big government at the same time

  9. #9

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by mons meg View Post
    I still don't think an EO can "stretch" the law like that, especially considering gun registries are currently against Federal law, right?
    The Congress cannot make a law and then depend on the good will of the people to obey it, while denying the Executive branch the power to execute it effectively. For example, they cannot say "pay taxes" and then hope everyone will pay them, while denying the IRS the ability to monitor who is paying taxes and who is not, and to punish people who are not paying taxes (breaking the law).

    If Congress passes a law that ALL gun sales must involve a background check, and the BATFE is the executive body in charge of managing the execution of this law then Congress cannot also say..."oh, by the way you cannot monitor guns in the country and know who owns what. ". BATFE will say, rightfully "then your law is unenforceable".

    Of course, no law is hundred percent followed, we know that....
    but the Executive branch's powers derive from needing to effectively implement the laws passed by Congress. At the very least this involves being able to monitor if the law is being followed and when it is being broken. So if Congress passes a new law, it needs to increase the powers of the Executive branch so that they can monitor if the law is being obeyed, and pursue punitive action if it is not.

    At present, NO guns are federally registered and BATFE has no idea who owns what (except for NFA class 3). In order to monitor if the universal BG check law is being implemented or not, they will need to know who owns what. Otherwise they simply cannot monitor it at all.
    An executive Order issued by POTUS to this effect will likely be upheld if the universal BG check law is passed.
    Of course they won't use the term "registration"...they will probably call it "federal firearms safety database" or some such crap.
    Hope this clarifies seriousness of the issue somewhat.
    If you are convinced this is a serious issue, please bring it up every time you see the work universal background checks mentioned in ANY forum or when talking to your reps / senators. The more people that know about this, the better.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale00 View Post
    I'd like to see someone more knowledgeable than me draft up some letters to our reps explaining why they need to totally oppose universal background checks. - And post them here of course.

    Additionally, perhaps it would be a good idea to advocate for the elimination of the federal Gun-free Schools Zone Act in the same letter. We need to give the people responsible for the safety of our kids the option of having the tools needed to effectively do it. The federal government has in part created the problem of school shootings and needs to reverse course and stop meddling with the second amendment.
    Well crafted letters work, but at this point, in my opinion, it's a numbers game. We ALL need to call once a week each and say something like "We will not stand to be scapegoated. No compromise on 2A. No universal background checks because BATFE will need to monitor all guns in order to enforce it, which is registration. I will work to defeat anyone who compromises on 2A, and work harder to re-elect those who do not. "
    The time to win this is now. Not after some compromise law is passed.
    We can win this together. Newtown was not our fault. We are the good guys. We prevent crimes. We own guns responsibly. 2A recognizes this natural freedom. we don't need to compromise....we already have 20,000+ laws restricting 2A.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    I posted this in another thread so I thought I would post it here:

    I guess I'm one of the minority here, but I support the universal background check. It doesn't have to be so complicated as everyone is making it out. I have bought several guns from dealers and have heard the phone calls. The NICS check person only asks "handgun, shotgun or rifle". Yes, I know the exact firearm and serial number are recorded in the FFL's register. Why not institute the universal background check, but instead of focusing on the GUN, focus on the PERSON. You want to buy a gun from someone FTF, open up the NICS number to the public so they can call and simply find out if the PERSON is legally allowed to own it. No need to record serial numbers or any of that nonsense. Hell they could even make an iphone app for it. Alcohol used to be illegal, now when you buy it they check your ID to make sure you qualify to own it. They don't RECORD your ID, they don't RECORD what type of alcohol you're buying. Does anyone else see a problem with doing it this way or am I in the only one that sees no issue with it? I believe they should have a national database of firearms that have been reported STOLEN, which could also be as simple as an iphone app. No need to register all of the legally owned guns, number of guns you own or anything else. Hell there is really no reason to even to make a record of the seller's name. A simple yes or no if the person in question is legally allowed to own a firearm. We do basically the same thing everyday when someone writes us a check. Call the bank to verify funds. Do they ask your name? Nope. Do they ask what you're selling them? Nope. Just whether or not the person has enough money in their account to own your goods. If I can come up with this idea in 30 seconds, why hasn't anyone else?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    How are they gonna track all these firearms? All those 4473's that we've filled out for years. They'll add 2500 new clerical positions to ATF to computerize all those records. If you think it can't be done then you're more naive then me. It'll be done by an Executive Order.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by sixseven View Post
    I posted this in another thread so I thought I would post it here:

    I guess I'm one of the minority here, but I support the universal background check. It doesn't have to be so complicated as everyone is making it out. I have bought several guns from dealers and have heard the phone calls. The NICS check person only asks "handgun, shotgun or rifle". Yes, I know the exact firearm and serial number are recorded in the FFL's register. Why not institute the universal background check, but instead of focusing on the GUN, focus on the PERSON. You want to buy a gun from someone FTF, open up the NICS number to the public so they can call and simply find out if the PERSON is legally allowed to own it. No need to record serial numbers or any of that nonsense. Hell they could even make an iphone app for it. Alcohol used to be illegal, now when you buy it they check your ID to make sure you qualify to own it. They don't RECORD your ID, they don't RECORD what type of alcohol you're buying. Does anyone else see a problem with doing it this way or am I in the only one that sees no issue with it? I believe they should have a national database of firearms that have been reported STOLEN, which could also be as simple as an iphone app. No need to register all of the legally owned guns, number of guns you own or anything else. Hell there is really no reason to even to make a record of the seller's name. A simple yes or no if the person in question is legally allowed to own a firearm. We do basically the same thing everyday when someone writes us a check. Call the bank to verify funds. Do they ask your name? Nope. Do they ask what you're selling them? Nope. Just whether or not the person has enough money in their account to own your goods. If I can come up with this idea in 30 seconds, why hasn't anyone else?
    Suppose you had 5 guns that you have owned for several years. You decide to sell one to your friend. You do it without a background check. How will the Feds ever know you sold it and to whom, if they never even knew you owned it?

    The Congress cannot make a law and then depend on the good will of the people to obey it, while denying the Executive branch the power to execute it effectively. The Executive branch's powers derive from needing to effectively implement the laws passed by Congress. At the very least this involves being able to monitor if the law is being followed and when it is being broken. So if Congress passes a new law, it needs to increase the powers of the Executive branch so that they can monitor if the law is being obeyed, and pursue punitive action if it is not.

    At present, NO guns are federally registered and BATFE has no idea who owns what (except for NFA class 3). In order to monitor if the universal BG check law is being implemented or not, they will need to know who owns what. Otherwise they simply cannot monitor it at all.
    An executive Order issued by POTUS to this effect will likely be upheld if the universal BG check law is passed.


  14. #14

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by yukonjack View Post
    How are they gonna track all these firearms? All those 4473's that we've filled out for years. They'll add 2500 new clerical positions to ATF to computerize all those records. If you think it can't be done then you're more naive then me. It'll be done by an Executive Order.
    Yes, but if you live in a free state like OK you could have sold that FTF to someone and not own it anymore. So while computerizing those records is a first step for them to create a national database, the holy grail is ALL guns in a database. For that COngress needs to mandate BG checks on ALL sales and then POTUS and DOJ are off running.....
    After all guns are registered, that is when confiscation can really start.
    Last edited by abajaj11; 01-15-2013 at 06:49 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Universal background checks can't be enforced?

    I wish them good luck. Even Canadians rebelled against their long gun registry and now they are or aer in the process of scrapping that boondoggle.
    The 22" cannon accepted balls that weighed about 350 lb; the Mons Meg could only be fired 8-10 times a day due to the tremendous heat generated by the powder charge required.

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