5 Clues that Training is Not Realistic

**Michael Brown** · 11-22-2005, 11:54 AM

I don't own a G21.

We are issued the G22C and its what I carry all the time.

If I had my druthers, I'd use the standard non-compensated version but I don't get to make that decision.

The only time I will carry differently is if I go home to the People's Socialist Republic of Massachusetts where magazines over 10 rounds are illegal and I carry my G27.

Michael Brown

**J.P.** · 11-22-2005, 04:46 PM

That's such B.S.!
You mean even a police officer is limited to 10 rd mags?

The phrase "hell in a handbasket" comes to mind.

**RDS** · 11-22-2005, 05:07 PM

Does your training/trainer prepare you for that moment when some "animal" decides to take what it wants from you and/or yours? The original theme of this thread, as I took it, concerned realistic training.... survival training.

Really, we're all just a blink of an eye away from the stone-age. You know, "dog eat dog", "kill or be killed", "survival of the fittest", "fight or flight"..none of the constraints of civilization....

So how are you going to handle things when you're jacked up as you leave Starbucks, mocha-latte' in one hand, fumbling for keys with the other, and your cell phone tucked under your chin? ....or, you're slammed against the urinal wall while your hands are otherwise occupied?

The best case would be "no response necessary because you would have anticipated/avoided worst case and not pinned that big target on your back." Failing best case, now what do you do??

Just something to think about next time you're at the range....or Starbucks.....or taking a leak ............

**blake711** · 11-23-2005, 12:51 AM

RDS you make all good points.. As anyone with sense will agree. The best option is avoidance and do not put youself in a situation where you may be harmed. The second thing is sometimes bad things happen to good people. So you can never be to prepared. While I find carring at home a bit overkill lots of people do it. As for people like Michael training for these scenarios. I can think of no one better suited for this type of training than law enforcement. I have seen all to often the small budgets that go to training LEOs for physical confrontations. Instead its wasted on political crap/corectness training and such. Just like the officer that was killed a few weeks back that had a gun jam or something. Was it a training issue? Only one person knows but I promise you more training could have only helped in that situation.

**10mm1911** · 11-23-2005, 10:42 AM

Mike Brown wrote:

[I]If you haven't seen your kydex holster fail in ten years, my guess is you haven't been training very hard with it. That means hard wrestling where you are picked up and deposited hard on the ground and continued to fight from there. It means being punched in the face and disoriented prior to a clinched gun grab or takedown.

Nobody, that I know of, is doing this type of training in this immediate area on a wide-scale basis and only a handful are doing it anywhere. If you have trained with someone who is, consider yourself fortunate.

However if you had, and I am not trying to be condescending or arrogant, but you probably would already have seen the answer firsthand.[/I]

I am a legal, civilian, concealed carrier. My best guess is that when I'm involved in a weapon retention bug tussle, chances are best that it will involve an already drawn handgun. I don't discount the possibility of a fight over a holstered handgun, I just see a fight over a handgun IN MY HANDS as the most probable. I spend the majority of my training time and efforts on what I think is most probable. Yep, we have trained and rassled pretty hard over dummy handguns, up to and including trading knees to the groin!

Now if I were in the habit of wearing a uniform, and a plainly visible handgun, I suspect I'd spent the bulk of my training time and efforts on protecting a pistol that's still IN THE HOLSTER. I suspect we're doing pretty similar things, just from very different perspectives.

**J.P.** · 11-23-2005, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by 10mm1911

Mike Brown wrote:

[I]If you haven't seen your kydex holster fail in ten years, my guess is you haven't been training very hard with it. That means hard wrestling where you are picked up and deposited hard on the ground and continued to fight from there. It means being punched in the face and disoriented prior to a clinched gun grab or takedown.

Nobody, that I know of, is doing this type of training in this immediate area on a wide-scale basis and only a handful are doing it anywhere. If you have trained with someone who is, consider yourself fortunate.

However if you had, and I am not trying to be condescending or arrogant, but you probably would already have seen the answer firsthand.[/I]

I am a legal, civilian, concealed carrier. My best guess is that when I'm involved in a weapon retention bug tussle, chances are best that it will involve an already drawn handgun. I don't discount the possibility of a fight over a holstered handgun, I just see a fight over a handgun IN MY HANDS as the most probable. I spend the majority of my training time and efforts on what I think is most probable. Yep, we have trained and rassled pretty hard over dummy handguns, up to and including trading knees to the groin!

Now if I were in the habit of wearing a uniform, and a plainly visible handgun, I suspect I'd spent the bulk of my training time and efforts on protecting a pistol that's still IN THE HOLSTER. I suspect we're doing pretty similar things, just from very different perspectives.

Trouble is,no matter how good you are,you might be on the ground before you can draw.
You have to always consider that possibility.

**Michael Brown** · 11-23-2005, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by J.P.

Trouble is,no matter how good you are,you might be on the ground before you can draw.
You have to always consider that possibility.

Exactamundo!

Michael Brown

**walpur6isknight** · 11-24-2005, 03:28 AM

i really need to stop buying guns and start investing in some training.

**Michael Brown** · 11-24-2005, 10:22 AM

Almost always a better plan.

Michael Brown

**J.P.** · 11-24-2005, 11:46 AM

10mm1911,
although you've made it clear that you will no longer be posting here...

You need not take offense to any advice or anecdotal information written by anyone on the internet.Especially with someone who actually has a lot of real world experience.
Mike would probably be the first person to tell you that he is not the greatest trainer of all time but would not be doing anyone a service by giving information contrary to his experience.Plain and simple.
Nobody is siding with or ganging up on anyone.
I disagree with Michael often about many things in life,politics,ballistics,even sometimes moderation of this forum.

Siding with good tactical advice is a good thing to do.
I'll take his training and expertise anyday of the week over somebody who has lesser qualifications.

The "I'm the execption" example which you gave, is foiled on a daily basis in the real world.That's all I was saying.

You are certainly welcome to disagree with and debate anyone's methods if you so choose as long as it is in a courteous manner.

In fact,if you *are* a trainer,your expertise would certainly be welcome here,as we could always use more great resources.
J.P.

**F16mickey** · 11-26-2005, 10:45 PM

O.K. Mike you have convinved me that I need more training, when is your next defensive handgun training course?

**Michael Brown** · 11-27-2005, 03:30 AM

We're trying to work out a deal with a new facility for 2006 so our pistol course schedule is on hold right now.

We will be offering the CQT course in February or March as the first class of the year. It really is our best course.

Michael Brown

**F16mickey** · 11-27-2005, 12:27 PM

The course sounds good to me. Let me know when you have firm dates. I will need to check and make sure I don't have drill that weekend.

**Hoov** · 11-29-2005, 12:18 PM

Bravo M.B! I see so many people take one class or worse yet, buy a video and think that they are 10-8 and GTG. I still like my Serpa because of it's retention, but there are always options. I tell people that rule number one in a gunfight is have a gun! Yet, so many people do not train. It is kind of like buying a car and not knowing how to drive. Of course, avoidance is always preferable. Keep up the good work M.B. Hoov

**Michael Brown** · 11-29-2005, 12:29 PM

Thank you for the kind words.

My dislike of the Serpa is not based on its retention capabilities, which I consider very good for a concealed holster.

My dislike for the Serpa is that I believe its unsafe because it requires you to use your trigger finger in a convulsive manner, similar to the way you pull the trigger. There have been several documented A.D.'s with the Serpa in a short period of time.

Its retention capabilities and the great feature of it locking in when its re-holstered are awesome. I just don't think it offsets the weakness.

But that's purely a personal decision and I've been known to be opinionated about these sort of things.

Michael Brown