How prosecutors came to dominate the criminal-justice system

[SoonerP226]

ya right .. soooo you think that the state of Oklahoma is not possible of making any mistakes on capital crimes?

That's not at all what I said.

You made the implied assertion that Oklahoma has executed an innocent person; it's incumbent on you to defend it. Provide the name of one person executed by Oklahoma in the last forty years who was later found not to be guilty of the crime. Listing people who were exonerated on death row doesn't count, because they WERE NOT EXECUTED.

It's pretty simple, but nobody seems to be able to do anything other than say "these dudes were almost killed by Oklahoma" after saying "ZOMG!1!1!11!! Oklahoma has killed innocent peoplez!1!1!!1!1"

 

[_CY_]

That's not at all what I said.

You made the implied assertion that Oklahoma has executed an innocent person; it's incumbent on you to defend it. Provide the name of one person executed by Oklahoma in the last forty years who was later found not to be guilty of the crime. Listing people who were exonerated on death row doesn't count, because they WERE NOT EXECUTED.

It's pretty simple, but nobody seems to be able to do anything other than say "these dudes were almost killed by Oklahoma" after saying "ZOMG!1!1!11!! Oklahoma has killed innocent peoplez!1!1!!1!1"

sorry but that's BS exonerated death row inmates don't count! have already posted two death row inmates that were mistakenly put on death row. that means there could be more folks innocent but already put to death. but didn't have the legal help and/or denied DNA tests...

don't know of anyone digging up dirt on folks already executed ... the odds of State of Oklahoma NOT making capital mistakes at all like you claim is probably zero!

on the flip side .. you cannot prove state of Oklahoma has never made a mistake putting a person on death row, then executing them. whereas the above two death row inmates that were exonerated are proof mistakes exists in our current system. it would not be a stretch to believe there are more possible cases of mistakes including folks already executed.

 

[SoonerP226]

sorry but that's BS exonerated death row inmates don't count!

When you're saying that the state has executed innocent people, that's the ONLY thing that counts.

Try again.

 

[SoonerP226]

Here's the deal--I've never said that the state of Oklahoma hasn't executed an innocent person, so I don't have to defend that position. What I HAVE said is that death penalty opponents claim that we HAVE executed innocent people (some claiming that it happens every year), yet they provide no actual proof that it has happened. They resort to the same tired old "well, if you believe that the state can't make a mistake, you're a fool" rhetoric, and still do not provide any actual evidence to support their supposition.

So far, the closest I've seen has been Bob's post, which actually links to information about claimed (or at least possible) executions of people who didn't commit the crimes.

In short, I'm tired of being told "you KNOW it has happened" when, in fact, I do NOT "know" that it has happened, and I'm really tired of seeing that propaganda go unchallenged, so put up or shut up. Name one person Oklahoma has executed in the last forty years for a crime for which he was later exonerated, or stop claiming that Oklahoma has executed innocent people. It's really that simple.

 

[_CY_]

From what I've read, that one is murky as hell, but even if we accept the proposition that he was innocent, and that the others listed as "innocent" on that Wikipedia page are, in fact, innocent, the point remains that it is far from clear that "innocent people are being put to death by the courts every year." Five executions of possibly innocent people in forty years is a far cry from innocent "people" being put to death "every year."

I do find it telling that, of all the executions in Oklahoma over the last 20+ years, all of the protests have been over some side issue--none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime.

Here's the deal--I've never said that the state of Oklahoma hasn't executed an innocent person, so I don't have to defend that position. What I HAVE said is that death penalty opponents claim that we HAVE executed innocent people (some claiming that it happens every year), yet they provide no actual proof that it has happened. They resort to the same tired old "well, if you believe that the state can't make a mistake, you're a fool" rhetoric, and still do not provide any actual evidence to support their supposition.

So far, the closest I've seen has been Bob's post, which actually links to information about claimed (or at least possible) executions of people who didn't commit the crimes.

In short, I'm tired of being told "you KNOW it has happened" when, in fact, I do NOT "know" that it has happened, and I'm really tired of seeing that propaganda go unchallenged, so put up or shut up. Name one person Oklahoma has executed in the last forty years for a crime for which he was later exonerated, or stop claiming that Oklahoma has executed innocent people. It's really that simple.

When you're saying that the state has executed innocent people, that's the ONLY thing that counts.

Try again.

OK .. we can play that game ... please show me where I stated the state has executed innocent people?
what I did do is provide proof the State of Oklahoma has indeed made prior capital mistakes.

as for proof for my position ... have already posted two parties on Oklahoma death row freed by the innocence project

now your turn .. you stated below .. please prove it.

"I do find it telling that, of all the executions in Oklahoma over the last 20+ years, all of the protests have been over some side issue--none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime.none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime."

 

[Glocktogo]

OK .. we can play that game ... please show me where I stated the state has executed innocent people?
what I did do is provide proof the State of Oklahoma has indeed made prior capital mistakes.

as for proof for my position ... have already posted two parties on Oklahoma death row freed by the innocence project

now your turn .. you stated below .. please prove it.

"I do find it telling that, of all the executions in Oklahoma over the last 20+ years, all of the protests have been over some side issue--none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime.none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime."

Essentially what you're stating is that the current appeals process was effective. You might not have intended to do so, but you did.

 

[SoonerP226]

OK .. we can play that game ... please show me where I stated the state has executed innocent people?

OK...

get real .. if you think State of Oklahoma has never executed someone that's actually innocent?

If you're not saying that Oklahoma has executed an innocent man right here, then you're not really saying anything at all.

And when I said the protests have all been about side issues rather than the innocence of the executed, that has been my observation over the last 20+ years since Oklahoma resumed executions. I have heard protests on how evil or immoral the capital punishment system is, or how this person should not be executed because of diminished capacity (though that could have been in Texas), or any number of any issues, but I've never heard any of those protestors say "the dude shouldn't be executed because he didn't do it!"

 

[_CY_]

OK...

If you're not saying that Oklahoma has executed an innocent man right here, then you're not really saying anything at all.

And when I said the protests have all been about side issues rather than the innocence of the executed, that has been my observation over the last 20+ years since Oklahoma resumed executions. I have heard protests on how evil or immoral the capital punishment system is, or how this person should not be executed because of diminished capacity (though that could have been in Texas), or any number of any issues, but I've never heard any of those protestors say "the dude shouldn't be executed because he didn't do it!"

you really are grasping at straws ..aren't you? fact is I never made the statement you accused me of making. what I did do is posted proof of State of Oklahoma has made capital mistakes.

the fact that some appeals are based on all sorts of creative avenues has nothing to do with if mistake(s) has been made in a capital case. to me that's an attorney doing their job scraping up anything and everything to continue an appeal in hopes something concrete surfaces.

still waiting for proof of the statement below YOU did make:

"I do find it telling that, of all the executions in Oklahoma over the last 20+ years, all of the protests have been over some side issue--none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime.none have been that the executed didn't commit the crime."

 

[SoonerP226]

you really are grasping at straws ..aren't you? fact is I never made the statement you accused me of making.

So you didn't make the statement you posted? OK, I'm done.

 

[_CY_]

So you didn't make the statement you posted? OK, I'm done.

everyone makes mistakes, no one is immune. when I make one, I'll admit it and go on ..
so far you've provided exactly no proof to backup what you've accused me of.

I'm actually in favor of the death penalty .. just that better checks and balances needs to be enacted to take away some of the power District Attorneys are empowered with. for instance if/when DA blatantly break the law by hiding evidence that could clear defendant. there should be criminal consequences that's applied to everyone else.

when a human's life is hanging in the balance? why does the DA put up such a fight to prevent testing of DNA evidence on cases where said tests didn't exist at time of conviction? too much work or the bad publicity that will ensue after a capital conviction reversal?

the DA's job should NOT be a popularity contest .. but that's exactly what being beholden to voters does to the DA's office.