Oklahoma Senator Introduces Bill to Criminalize Abortion as First-Degree Murder

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OKCHunter

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I was talking with a friend at work the other night about abortion. He is what I would classify as very religious, and is anti abortion for the most part. We both agreed about health, incest, and rape as cases where abortions should not be restricted. The discussion went on and we talked about all sorts of things like what point it should be illegal to abort. We both had a hard time defining "late term" abortion. We talked about, as others have here, certain groups of women wanting to be able to go out, party and have no consequences of their bad decisions. We talked about getting consent from the father, however we ran into a problem with that. All she would have to say is "I dont know who the father is" and that would be worthless. Then I said something that really made him think. What will happen if you make a woman carry an unwanted baby to term? Will she take care of her body? Will she go to all the Dr. appointments? If she does not want the child why would she?

I think it is a really interesting ethical and philosophical discussion about when exactly individual life begins. Not just life starts at conception, but when does that life gain individual rights.

That is thought provoking, especially the part about a woman forced to carry to term and the care she would provide for herself and the child. Frankly, I had never thought about that. I could easily see a forced birth ending with children have all kinds of medical issues (born addicted to meth or alcohol, etc.). I guess in the end, the woman will be ultimately judged by God as to whether or not she committed murder.
 

loudshirt

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Here is another item we discussed. The crime rates as related to legalized abortion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

1972 Rockefeller Commission

The 1972 Rockefeller Commission on Population and the American Future is one of the better known early versions of this claim, although it was not the first.[1] The Commission cited research stating that the children of women denied an abortion "turned out to have been registered more often with psychiatric services, engaged in more antisocial and criminal behavior, and have been more dependent on public assistance." A 1966 study by Hans Forssman and Inga Thuwe was cited by the Rockefeller Commission and is probably the first serious empirical research on this topic. They studied the children of 188 women who were denied abortions from 1939 to 1941 at the hospital in Gothenburg, Sweden. They compared these unwanted children to another group – the next child born after each of the unwanted children at the hospital. The unwanted children were more likely to grow up in adverse conditions, such as having divorced parents or being raised in foster homes and were more likely to become delinquents and engaged in crime.[2] Supreme Court Justice Blackmun's opinion in Roe v. Wade also referenced the social and private problems "of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it."[3]
2001 Donohue and Levitt study

Steven Levitt of the University of Chicago and John Donohue of Yale University revived discussion of this claim with their 2001 paper "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime".[4] Donohue and Levitt point to the fact that males aged 18 to 24 are most likely to commit crimes. Data indicates that crime in the United States started to decline in 1992. Donohue and Levitt suggest that the absence of unwanted children, following legalization in 1973, led to a reduction in crime 18 years later, starting in 1992 and dropping sharply in 1995. These would have been the peak crime-committing years of the unborn children.

The authors argue that states that had abortion legalized earlier should have the earliest reductions in crime. Donohue and Levitt's study indicates that this indeed has happened: Alaska, California, Hawaii, New York, Oregon and Washington experienced steeper drops in crime, and had legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade. Further, states with a high abortion rate have experienced a greater reduction in crime, when corrected for factors like average income.[5] Finally, studies in Canada and Australia claim to have established a correlation between legalized abortion and overall crime reduction.[5]


If you follow the link there are some people who do not believe the studies were correct. One theory points to a combination of abortion and the phasing out of leaded gasoline.

2007 Reyes leaded gasoline theory

A 2007 study[11] by Jessica Reyes at Amherst College stated: "This implies that, between 1992 and 2002, the phase-out of lead from gasoline was responsible for approximately a 56% decline in violent crime. Sensitivity testing confirms the strength of these results. Results for murder are not robust if New York and the District of Columbia are included, but suggest a substantial elasticity as well. No significant effects are found for property crime. The effect of legalized abortion reported by Donohue and Levitt (2001) is largely unaffected, so that abortion accounts for a 29% decline in violent crime (elasticity 0.23), and similar declines in murder and property crime. Overall, the phase-out of lead and the legalization of abortion appear to have been responsible for significant reductions in violent crime rates."


One more thing to add to the discussion. As a man I have leaned pro choice for my entire life. The reason being that no matter what circumstances life throws at me I will never be the one that makes the absolute final decision about proceeding with an abortion. I could end up as a supporter of someones decision, however I will never be the one that has to sign all the paper work, lay down on the table and tell the Dr to proceed.
 

Danny Tanner

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It's the irony of the liberal mind that I don't understand. Abortion - killing a fetus is okay. If a person shoots and kills a pregnant women, then he is charged with 2 counts of murder. Killing a fetus, is it murder or not?

It wasn't the murderer's choice. It's not liberal logic, it's elementary common sense.
 

Kyle78

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I'm not religious, but I can't understand why a fetus, no matter in what trimester, isn't considered alive. I mean we're looking for bacteria on mars, and that would be considered alive? To me, abortion is a easy escape for people to run from their responsibilities.
 

tRidiot

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I'm not religious, but I can't understand why a fetus, no matter in what trimester, isn't considered alive. I mean we're looking for bacteria on mars, and that would be considered alive? To me, abortion is a easy escape for people to run from their responsibilities.

It's an uncomfortable issue, people don't want to confront it. There wasn't a single reply to or acknowledgement of my post asking if anyone here had ever held an aborted or miscarried baby/fetus/"lump of cells".
 

donner

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It's an uncomfortable issue, people don't want to confront it. There wasn't a single reply to or acknowledgement of my post asking if anyone here had ever held an aborted or miscarried baby/fetus/"lump of cells".

we have not personally suffered either, but have very close friends who had to terminate because of an ectopic pregnancy. It wasn't easy for them, for sure.

my wife and i also spent years trying to adopt before finally connecting with a family in boston this past summer. It's much more complicated than that, but the short version is that these people considered keeping the child, despite loving drugs more than him. I can't imagine what his life would have looked like had they decided to parent. Not everyone should be a parent.
 

Kyle78

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It's an uncomfortable issue, people don't want to confront it. There wasn't a single reply to or acknowledgement of my post asking if anyone here had ever held an aborted or miscarried baby/fetus/"lump of cells".

Luckily, my wife and I have never had a miscarriage. We have friends and family members that have lost babies in early stages and late term.
Far as I know, they've all been buried according to their parents wishes.

In response to some of the posts about conservatives not carrying about the child after birth, I find that's not true.
My wife is adopted, along with numerous other family members. My side of the family has adopted numerous children over the decades.
My wife and I are planning on adopting instead of biologically having another child.
 

_CY_

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only in Oklahoma ..

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Abortion doctors would lose medical licenses under new Oklahoma bill

April 23
imrs.php


Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin (R) may sign a bill that would revoke the licenses of most doctors who perform abortions.
Oklahoma is just a signature away from revoking the licenses of most doctors who perform abortions.

Under a bill passed by the legislature this week, doctors who perform abortions — defined in the measure as “unprofessional conduct” — would be barred from obtaining or renewing their medical licenses. The bill, now on the governor’s desk, would not apply to abortions performed to save a mother’s life, although the bill lacks similar exceptions for abortions performed in cases of rape or incest.

“This is our proper function, to protect life,” the bill’s sponsor, Sen. Nathan Dahm (R), said last month.

The bill passed the Senate early last month and the House on Thursday. Both houses are controlled by the GOP, but a few Democrats in each chamber voted for the bill. Gov. Mary Fallin (R) has not yet said whether she will sign the bill, Reuters reports.

Abortion doctors would lose medical licenses under new Oklahoma bill
 

Fredkrueger100

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It's an uncomfortable issue, people don't want to confront it. There wasn't a single reply to or acknowledgement of my post asking if anyone here had ever held an aborted or miscarried baby/fetus/"lump of cells".
Sadly my wife and I lost our baby back in 2003. It is something I don't ever talk about. I am a Christian and I am strongly against abortion. The only was I could possibly be for it is when someone is raped. I know how hard that would be to carry. But, a living being would still be murdered. And the woman would kill her own baby whether she chose it or not. I am sure that circumstance is very rare. We are mostly talking about women who go out and have sex with multiple people and get pregnant. Then they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions. So they just go in and kill the baby to get out of having to care for it. I went to high school with a girl who did just that. Acted like it was nothing. And in this country today with how backwards things are, many people want to act like she did. Like it's no big deal. We will all answer for our sins one day. Ain't no getting around it. I wouldn't want to explain to God why i murdered an innocent baby.
 

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