Concealed Carry Ballistics: Challenging the Stopping Power Conventional Wisdom

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Gunbuffer

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Everyone was primed and ready to embrace cheaper, less recoily, more capacity, 9mm.
Ammo issues prior to the release of the fbi’s gospel was a big drag on training expenses and other logistical problems. Police departments both fed and local, for the most part, have horse#$&t firearm training programs that couldn’t get some of the new wave of diverse officer candidates shooting ducks on a Nintendo screen.
All it took was an “expert” study to make most of us true believers in that the impact of a brick wall with a VW beetle gives the same result as it getting hit with a 1ton truck. Or a 18 wheeler (45acp)
 

Ethan N

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the problem certainly existed. the fbi switched to the 40 after they got there butts shot off down in florida, their 9mm was simply outgunned. then big city LEO got into 40, then 9-11 happened and 40 ammo sales in most locations were restricted to LEO only, now the fbi and local LEO are transitioning back into 9mm cause the fbi folks can't handle a 40 "recoil". most likely they'll get shot up again and try 50 cal next.

The FBI did cite lowered physical capability standards as one motivation for the switch, but it certainly wasn’t the primary reason. In their study, they found that all agents they examined shot better with 9mm and that, based on their terminal ballistics standards (12-18” penetration, etc.), .40 S&W no longer has any significant ballistics advantage over 9mm.

Also, in the FBI Miami shootout, most of the agents were shooting .38 special, not 9mm. FBI was issuing 9mm at the time, but many agents carried personal revolvers instead.
 

O4L

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I have never shot 10mm but I can shoot 40S&W, 357Sig, and 357Magnum accurately if I have to.

Given enough time between shots just about any caliber can be fired accurately but I am more concerned with accurate follow up shots at speed. (Ten shots in 5 seconds)

Of those three, if I wanted something with more kick than 9mm, I would go with the 357Sig which I did carry for a while a few years back.

In my experience the 40S&W has more muzzle rise on the recoil which takes a little more time to line things back up for accurate follow up shots.
 

Fyrtwuck

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The question of the best ammo for LE and SD has been an ongoing controversy since I picked up my first guns & ammo magazine in the early seventies and I don’t see it ending any time in the future.

I agree that there needs to be better more advanced firearms training than what is provided now.
 

Snattlerake

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Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it.


A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him, "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46."
 

Tanis143

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The FBI did cite lowered physical capability standards as one motivation for the switch, but it certainly wasn’t the primary reason. In their study, they found that all agents they examined shot better with 9mm and that, based on their terminal ballistics standards (12-18” penetration, etc.), .40 S&W no longer has any significant ballistics advantage over 9mm.

Also, in the FBI Miami shootout, most of the agents were shooting .38 special, not 9mm. FBI was issuing 9mm at the time, but many agents carried personal revolvers instead.

Yes, but the agent who shot the guy through the arm and into his body was shooting a 9mm. That gun shot should have been incapacitating, but wasn't. They guy fought on and injured 3-4 more officers before he bled out. And yes, there is ammo out there that brings the 9mm close to the .40 in terms of damage and penetration, but at a much higher cost vs standard 180 gr JHP .40 S&W.

I'm by no means a big guy. I'm 5'5" with a handspan of just under 7 inches and I can fire both my .40's as accurately as my 9mm EC9s. Granted, I'm no marksman either, still need a lot more practice as I tend to pull down and left on rapid fire but for all intents and purpose at 20 ft I'm going to hit my target, just might be a liver shot instead of a heart shot lol.
 

Fredkrueger100

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I carry a 9mm. Always have and always will. I use Federal HST’s 147gr and so does my wife. It does t matter what someone carries if they can’t hit the target they are shooting f at. Is 9mm the best? No. But I believe with the new ammo tech it is a fine round to use. Many people won’t use anything else. But I don’t have anything against other calibers either.
 

Snattlerake

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Yes, but the agent who shot the guy through the arm and into his body was shooting a 9mm. That gun shot should have been incapacitating, but wasn't. They guy fought on and injured 3-4 more officers before he bled out. And yes, there is ammo out there that brings the 9mm close to the .40 in terms of damage and penetration, but at a much higher cost vs standard 180 gr JHP .40 S&W.

I'm by no means a big guy. I'm 5'5" with a handspan of just under 7 inches and I can fire both my .40's as accurately as my 9mm EC9s. Granted, I'm no marksman either, still need a lot more practice as I tend to pull down and left on rapid fire but for all intents and purpose at 20 ft I'm going to hit my target, just might be a liver shot instead of a heart shot lol.
That was a terrible lesson to learn for the FBI They lost some good agents because of being overgunned.

Just like L.A.P.D. learned about full body armor and rifles against 9mm pistols.
 

Ethan N

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Yes, but the agent who shot the guy through the arm and into his body was shooting a 9mm. That gun shot should have been incapacitating, but wasn't. They guy fought on and injured 3-4 more officers before he bled out. And yes, there is ammo out there that brings the 9mm close to the .40 in terms of damage and penetration, but at a much higher cost vs standard 180 gr JHP .40 S&W.

I'm by no means a big guy. I'm 5'5" with a handspan of just under 7 inches and I can fire both my .40's as accurately as my 9mm EC9s. Granted, I'm no marksman either, still need a lot more practice as I tend to pull down and left on rapid fire but for all intents and purpose at 20 ft I'm going to hit my target, just might be a liver shot instead of a heart shot lol.

Defensive caliber/ammo selection has a lot of personal elements, but I don’t consider standard JHP in any pistol caliber effective enough for defensive carry. Standard hollow points frequently get clogged with clothing and fail to expand, which means you might as well be carrying ball ammo. The price difference between proper modern defensive ammo in .40 S&W vs. the same in 9mm is negligible, especially since I buy a very small amount of the ammo I carry because I can’t afford to train with anything but ball.

I’m always open to having my mind changed, but for now, based on all of the evidence I’ve seen, I’m convinced 9mm (with the right ammo selection) is not only a great choice for self-defense EDC, it’s the best choice for me. I’m not saying .40 isn’t a great choice also – I know it is. And I’m not saying 9mm is better than .40. There are trade offs with both. .40 definitely has a little bit of an edge in terminal ballistics. In particular, it performs much better fired through barriers. But firing blind through concealment is way beyond my comfort level both in skill and liability. Glass (e.g. windshield) is the only thing I can imagine myself ever firing through, and any pistol caliber is going to behave unpredictably fired through car glass anyway, so I’m not that concerned about the difference between 9mm and .40 in that regard.

What it comes down to for me is that 9mm is proven plenty good enough in terminal ballistics for all but the most unlikely scenarios, and has other advantages that appeal to me – accuracy (depending on skill level), cost, comfort when shooting, slightly higher mag capacity etc. One personal factor for me is I would prefer to standardize on one pistol caliber for both me and my wife when she starts carrying, and 9mm is a clear winner for her (based on factors I’ll refrain from detailing since this reply is already long enough).

As for your experience comparing accuracy of the two calibers, how often do you train under stress? If you don’t, you may be overestimating your ability to put follow up shots on target rapidly. Just a thought.
 

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