RECOIL magazine thinks the MP7 is too much gun for you civvie scumbags!

So basically his "apology" is, I was told by H&K to say these things in order to print the article, now I claim I don't agree with it? Yeah, that makes me respect you more.....

This article was pretty bad, but hell, like everyone else said, gun magazines suck. Nevertheless, pretty patronizing language. Good and bad guy are relative, yeah? Don't most people fear when the "Good guy" becomes the "Bad Guy"?

And what's with this "sporting application" nonsense? Do handguns have any sporting application? I guess some do, but does a Glock 27? Does a 1911? Doesn't everyone know guns are weapons? A knife can be used for multiple applications. But a gun......man it's a gun. I guess I don't understand a single thing this yahoo is talking about. Rubbish.

Cards81fan said:

Same reason people got butthurt about Ruger's 10rd magazines. We don't like people, governments or corporations, telling us what we should or shouldn't be able to own.

If a government can buy it, we want the same accessibility. Make it semi auto instead of select fire, but put it on the market and see how much money you can make.

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"Well, since "regular" people cannot own "factory" UMP's and MP5's (post-sample machine guns are not legal for them) that are already "affordable", it's just not going to happen. A factory MP5 is about $1500 to an agency. So why is making a civie version such a big deal?

Under current US law, HK cannot import a semi version of the UMP or MP5 because, under 922(r), it would not be deemed as a long arm suitable for sporting purposes. Witness the USC and SL8 to try and make nice with this stupid law. In order to make them "correctly", HK would have to open up manufacturing facilities State side so that 922(r) would not be an issue (it doesn't apply to domestic production). And in order to do THAT, HK would have to believe that there was a sufficient market to support the investment.

So to answer your question, it would take one of two things: 1~ Get your Congress Critters to repeal 922(r) or 2~ Deliver a guaranteed order for 100,000 (minimum) of each weapon type to HK."

Seedy said:

Are you aware that owning a full auto is really just a matter of $$$, some paperwork and a trust or CLEO sign off? If you can pass a normal background check then you can most likely complete the NFA process and own a pre 1986 machine gun.

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HAHA yea! So even if they made a civy version it would have to be semi auto because you can't own a machine gun made after 86! Which I am total for to own.


Otis, you're right. Bad Analogy. But they are a company and they obviously feel they can't make enough money in the civilian market for a gun like this. They would have to comply with all of the US rules and then they might as well make a whole new gun.

the issue isn't so much HK's disdain for armed civilians, it's with the magazine's apparently anti-2nd amendment stance. and assuming we all agree with it...

Mr Tsai needs to answer Trashcan Deer's question about his stance on civvies owning post 86 machine guns.

Looks like thats a mag i wont be buying.

cm_osu said:

If I remember right, this is the same magazine that said shotguns aren't recommended for home defense...

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Actually Pump-action shotguns, and it's solid advice (most shotguns pattern at around 3" @under 10yds, the over-penetration / knockdown-power myth is absolutely silly, and contrary to what the gun-counter at Academy Sporting Goods tells us, the "racking" sound made by a pump-action is not going to scare the criminals away).

ArGyLe64 said:

To me, RECOIL, sounds like a liberal rag trying to discguise itself as a gun magazine for firearms enthusiasts.

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It was ironically, one of the better gun rags out there - they demonstrated some real knowledge in several articles (bucking the traditional "gun-guy rumors" among the untrained). I'm honestly kind of down about this whole thing - it's bad for Recoil, but more importantly, it's bad for gun-owners as it represents a black-eye in our solidarity and shows that when faced with the proper pressure, even the most supportive of the 2nd amendment can falter.

ITS Tactical posted a write up about the whole thing (including the Recoil's first attempt at a facebook apology):

http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/its-information/the-recoil-magazine-2nd-amendment-controversy/



The whole thing boils down to two comments:

HK's Mike Cabrera (who was a veteran of SWAT and an LEO for years before that) said "this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands." That's a true statement and he never specified civilians (at least not from what I read in the article). Now there are a lot of LEOs and especially SWAT folks out there (most not in the Midwest / Southwest states like ours) who are against the civilian ownership of guns, but I don't even think Mike Cabrera meant it this way - he was talking about how kick-ass this particular weapon was and just making the comment that in the wrong hands, its dangerous.

and Recoil Magazine's editor Jerry Tsai followed with "Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it."

Which essentially looks like Jerry is referring to civilians as the folks that Mike was talking about with his "wrong slimy hands" comment and basically puts him into the Fud category with the sporting-purpose comment as if firearms were not necessary for civilian defense.

Jerry has been a long-time supporter of real knowledge and real training, so this actually is kind of shocking to see that he wrote it. I didn't honestly want to comment when I first read it because it was such a downer to hear those words from someone who actually seemed to care about the shooting community.

I've got to say that he's reaped what he's sowing. They've lost sponsors, and their facebook page is taking a dive - in order to appease the mob, they'll probably can Jerry and he'll have learned a very hard lesson in life: When you're a writer for a public wide-spread publication... get your $#!+ straight before you put that thing to bed because if you're biting the hand that feeds you, you'll end up starving.

ez bake said:

Actually Pump-action shotguns, and it's solid advice (most shotguns pattern at around 3" @under 10yds, the over-penetration / knockdown-power myth is absolutely silly, and contrary to what the gun-counter at Academy Sporting Goods tells us, the "racking" sound made by a pump-action is not going to scare the criminals away).




It was ironically, one of the better gun rags out there - they demonstrated some real knowledge in several articles (bucking the traditional "gun-guy rumors" among the untrained). I'm honestly kind of down about this whole thing - it's bad for Recoil, but more importantly, it's bad for gun-owners as it represents a black-eye in our solidarity and shows that when faced with the proper pressure, even the most supportive of the 2nd amendment can falter.

ITS Tactical posted a write up about the whole thing (including the Recoil's first attempt at a facebook apology):

http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/its-information/the-recoil-magazine-2nd-amendment-controversy/



The whole thing boils down to two comments:

HK's Mike Cabrera (who was a veteran of SWAT and an LEO for years before that) said "this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands." That's a true statement and he never specified civilians (at least not from what I read in the article). Now there are a lot of LEOs and especially SWAT folks out there (most not in the Midwest / Southwest states like ours) who are against the civilian ownership of guns, but I don't even think Mike Cabrera meant it this way - he was talking about how kick-ass this particular weapon was and just making the comment that in the wrong hands, its dangerous.

and Recoil Magazine's editor Jerry Tsai followed with "Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it."

Which essentially looks like Jerry is referring to civilians as the folks that Mike was talking about with his "wrong slimy hands" comment and basically puts him into the Fud category with the sporting-purpose comment as if firearms were not necessary for civilian defense.

Jerry has been a long-time supporter of real knowledge and real training, so this actually is kind of shocking to see that he wrote it. I didn't honestly want to comment when I first read it because it was such a downer to hear those words from someone who actually seemed to care about the shooting community.

I've got to say that he's reaped what he's sowing. They've lost sponsors, and their facebook page is taking a dive - in order to appease the mob, they'll probably can Jerry and he'll have learned a very hard lesson in life: When you're a writer for a public wide-spread publication... get your $#!+ straight before you put that thing to bed because if you're biting the hand that feeds you, you'll end up starving.

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This looks like the nearly universal problem with gun rags. They're controlled by the advertising dollars, which means companies like HK (even if they aren't a current advertiser, they're a potential advertiser). HK has never had good customer relations on the civilian side. They hold themselves out as elite and they embody that premise. Why anyone would listen to what they think is beyond me.

Glocktogo said:

This looks like the nearly universal problem with gun rags. They're controlled by the advertising dollars, which means companies like HK (even if they aren't a current advertiser, they're a potential advertiser). HK has never had good customer relations on the civilian side. They hold themselves out as elite and they embody that premise. Why anyone would listen to what they think is beyond me.

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Is the best chance at civilian service for HK still that large dealer out of the Seattle area? I knew they were doing a lot of scouring internet forums trying to do business but generally offer a positive web presence for the brand.

One of the guys on there (John, I think is his name) is a big LandCruiser and Toyota enthusiast.

I've never read that particular magazine...looks like I didn't miss much. What a bone head. I'll be curious to see if they are able to continue printing after this.