Ranges and Self-Defense Skills

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Gunbuffer

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I've not taken in firearms training yet, hope to remedy that this year. However, one of the reasons I've stuck with USSA even with their declining maintenance is that they allow defensive shooting practice. They have 19 bays for this, nine 25 yard bays for pistols and ten 50 yard bays for rifles and pistols. There is no rate of fire limit, no static position, pretty much as long as you're shooting into the back berm you are free to do as you will. On the steel challenge bays (bays 1-6 on the 25 yard bays) we do quick target acquisition while moving. On the pistol bays without steel targets we do accuracy while moving and while drawing from the holster.

I can agree that with certain range types strict rules are needed. Its nice to find a range that is more relaxed for working on real life skills as apposed to just accuracy.
If you happened to take AP1 from tdsa located in Tulsa, you would be compelled to thank me for the suggestion for many years. They still use the ussa range I think.
 

Gunbuffer

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Anytime a mag goes in your pistol, whether it’s after cleaning or at the range, or whenever...
It’s time to practice a defensive speed reload; whatever you want to call it.
Anytime you shoot cheap ammo and get a malf and need to replace the magazine, or after the pistol goes empty and you need to load and charge it, it’s time to practice a slide lock reload.
Every moment you pick up your pistol out of your range bag is time to practice gripping It properly; like your life requires it.
Every time you take your pistol out of your holster is a time to practice a draw as if you were in a gunfight.
The speed at which you draw your gun should never vary based upon if there’s a threat, or if youre on gramps back 40 shooting cans.
All My draws have one speed. As fast as f”&$. Edit-I should say “had”.
My overall point is that there is more time for plain ol Joe civilian to train for ancillary gunfighting skills than you think. Heck, arguing about whether we should learn and train reloads is missed time we can train on these very Skills. And dryfire training is the best training. Cause everyone has unlimited access to it.
 

gerhard1

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I’m worried about that 610 Gary. It’s a POS. You really should just forget about it and chalk it up to a bad day. You should just carry one of your proven revolvers, and because you’re such a good guy, I’ll take that 610 off your hands buddy old pal old friend. You’re welcome.


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Gee, what a guy!! WHAT A GUY!!
 

gerhard1

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I've not taken in firearms training yet, hope to remedy that this year. However, one of the reasons I've stuck with USSA even with their declining maintenance is that they allow defensive shooting practice. They have 19 bays for this, nine 25 yard bays for pistols and ten 50 yard bays for rifles and pistols. There is no rate of fire limit, no static position, pretty much as long as you're shooting into the back berm you are free to do as you will. On the steel challenge bays (bays 1-6 on the 25 yard bays) we do quick target acquisition while moving. On the pistol bays without steel targets we do accuracy while moving and while drawing from the holster.

I can agree that with certain range types strict rules are needed. Its nice to find a range that is more relaxed for working on real life skills as apposed to just accuracy.
You might want to think about contacting Mike Seeklander. He's up your way.
 

Pstmstr

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I’d visit the next gay pride parade or other large public event and look up that bad ass carrying the AR pistol and camera. He’s bound to have some mad skills he can pass along. No telling how many gunfights he’s won over the years.


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Mad Professor

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I had sort of hoped someone would jump on this, so here's my thoughts on it: Specifically, the chances that one would need to preform a reload during a civilian self-defense is based on this.

Let's suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you had to fire your weapon in order to defend yourself as you were getting back in your car at the local Convenience Store. However, the Bad Guy made a grave error in judgement and not only pointed a weapon at you, but told you he was going to kill you as well. You quickly realize that the SHTF and made the decision to shoot, and fortunately, you were able to draw and fire in order to stop the threat, and you fired 3 (or was it 4?) rounds from your single-stack handgun or your 5-shot revolver. The Bad Guy drops, you kick his weapon aside, and yell for someone to call 911. Your adrenaline is up, heart is racing, blood pressure is through the roof! Do you re-holster at this point? Keep him covered while waiting on the Police? Administer first-aid? Then something tells you that he might not be alone...and there you are, behind cover of some kind hopefully, with one in the chamber and a few rounds left in your magazine (or cylinder). I don't know about you, or anyone else, but I'm gonna drop the partially expended magazine and slam in a fresh one ASAP. (or execute a speed strip reload). I'll keep the partially loaded mag near me, if I can, as the situation either stabilizes and the Police get there, or if I have to engage the Bad Guy's accomplice, who in a fit of rage has now jumped from the driver's seat of his car and is running towards me, maybe firing as he charges me, screaming how I just shot his brother.

The chances of this happening are really very slim, about as much as me having to shoot someone when I go to the store for my wife here in a minute, but I damn sure will have a speed strip in my pocket when I go, and If I do have to use my gun, I will execute a reload as soon as I feel I can, given the situation.


I agree it is a skill that needs to be developed to great proficiency. The current BFI qualification requires shooting from the ready position 4 rounds to slide lock, preforming the reload, and firing 4 more rounds. It must be performed in 8 seconds. That is a good start. But it will be pretty difficult with a revolver. This is one reason I don't carry a revolver. I carried a J-frame for 20 years as a BUG, but almost never as a primary. I do think you are on the right track on the mindset of reloading after the gunfight and has been mentioned many times in the classes I have had.

John Correia of Active Self Protection has compiled quite a bit of statistics from review of several videos involving shootings. At the time he presented this information at the instructor training seminar I was at, the video count was in excess of 5000. Earlier this year it was at 15,000 without anything really changing the original stats.

Quote from the results, with my added emphasis.
Reloads are almost vanishingly insignificant factors in gunfights. I have seen precisely 2 reloads in a real gunfight that weren't on-duty LEO. And neither of those affected the outcome of the fight. I have seen about 7 or 8 where a higher capacity firearm or the presence of a reload might have affected the outcome. So 0.2% of what I have witnessed. Don't spend much valuable class time teaching emergency and retention reloads...at least until your highest level classes where all the fundamentals are flawless. I like Tom Givens' focus on the PROACTIVE reload once the fight is over. That has value in my opinion.



The other thing I see is that some practice skills such as this incorrectly. It is very important to develop these skills correctly. It is also extremely difficult to correct and re-train incorrect procedures if someone has developed and practiced them incorrectly.

And I very often see people doing things that are far more likely in resulting in a self-inflicted gunshot wound that being shot by an assailant.

It has been fun to watch John Correia's progression in the training world the last 3-4 years. I was very familiar with his work before his presentation at an event Tom Givens put on for graduates from his RangeMaster instructor courses a couple of years ago. With each observation point, he presented a few examples on video. Great stuff from an awareness aspect and it gives several clues on what to focus on. I'm not saying any one part needs to be left out, but it makes it pretty clear on what skills to work on 80% plus and what to apply less work into. Getting the first shot in and on target very high on the list. Not just one shot, but multiple shots to ensure the threat to your life is mitigated. I can also assure you that your assailant is not going to stand there. This can make target transitions very important. In some limited cases because of multiple assailants, but more often of your single assailant moving.

I'll post John's entire results in bit.
 

druryj

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I’d visit the next gay pride parade or other large public event and look up that bad ass carrying the AR pistol and camera. He’s bound to have some mad skills he can pass along. No telling how many gunfights he’s won over the years.



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Well, let us know how you enjoyed the parade anyway.
 

druryj

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Anytime a mag goes in your pistol, whether it’s after cleaning or at the range, or whenever...
It’s time to practice a defensive speed reload; whatever you want to call it.
Anytime you shoot cheap ammo and get a malf and need to replace the magazine, or after the pistol goes empty and you need to load and charge it, it’s time to practice a slide lock reload.
Every moment you pick up your pistol out of your range bag is time to practice gripping It properly; like your life requires it.
Every time you take your pistol out of your holster is a time to practice a draw as if you were in a gunfight.
The speed at which you draw your gun should never vary based upon if there’s a threat, or if youre on gramps back 40 shooting cans.
All My draws have one speed. As fast as f”&$. Edit-I should say “had”.
My overall point is that there is more time for plain ol Joe civilian to train for ancillary gunfighting skills than you think. Heck, arguing about whether we should learn and train reloads is missed time we can train on these very Skills. And dryfire training is the best training. Cause everyone has unlimited access to it.


Of course, you're absolutely right. But will plain ol Joe Civilian do anything about training? Or will he just go buy a gun and put it in the drawer, or maybe...just carry it with only the SDA Course under his belt? We have members here who have only done the SDA, no training beyond that at all, yet many of them will surely post up their opinions based on what they saw on YouBoob or read in some gun magazine or whatever.

Oh...I almost forgot, as of November 1st, even that minimum bit of training is no longer a requirement.

I don't think we can have it both ways. Constitutional Carry has taken care of it anyway. If you can legally BUY a gun, you can legally CARRY it, as of November 1st. So...get ready for it; there may be blood in the streets!
 

Mad Professor

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This was from Dec 2016. John Correia has since stated he has reviewed 10,000 more with the same percentage of results. Good Stuff.

John's website https://activeselfprotection.com/ and his YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw are worth taking a look at.

I've watched about 5,000 gunfights at this point, and the patterns that emerge are pretty clear. Some thoughts you might want to consider that I don't think that the training community really wants to hear:

1. Most gunfights aren't entangled gunfights. Empty-handed skills are important, but very rare once the gun comes out. They're necessary for LE more than CCW, by a long shot. For CCW, empty-handed skills are critical for the 80% of assaults that don't rise to the level of deadly force response. So go to your martial arts training.

2. Reloads are almost vanishingly insignificant factors in gunfights. I have seen precisely 2 reloads in a real gunfight that weren't on-duty LEO. And neither of those affected the outcome of the fight. I have seen about 7 or 8 where a higher capacity firearm or the presence of a reload might have affected the outcome. So 0.2% of what I have witnessed. Don't spend much valuable class time teaching emergency and retention reloads...at least until your highest level classes where all the fundamentals are flawless. I like Tom Givens' focus on the PROACTIVE reload once the fight is over. That has value in my opinion.

3. He who puts the first shot into meaty bits on the other guy, wins. Not 100%, but darn near, at least partially because of the FIBS Factor. Therefore, training a fast and reliable draw and first shot in the meaty bits is most important, in my opinion. It is THE critical skill to winning the gunfight. The best cover is fire superiority.

4. Follow-up shots are necessary. Seldom do gunfights END with that first shot, so keep at him until he decides he is done fighting. This is where multiple target acquisition is important, because it simulates a moving target to hit. (unless you have a fancy moving target that can move erratically, in which case you are high speed!)

5. People have a crazy tendency to use the gun one-handed, mostly because they have stuff in their support hand. Training people to drop what's in their hands and get two hands on the gun is a necessary skill for #3 and 4.

6. You simply WILL NOT stand still while someone wants to kill you. Unless you're counter-ambushing, when the gun comes out you will move. So training students to move with purpose while #3 and 4 are going on is also a critical skill. They're going to do it, so teach them to use it.

7. Chasing deadly threats is another bad habit that I see all the time. Teach your students to shoot and scoot. Move AWAY from the threat.

8. Concealment ain't cover, but it works identically in 99.9% of cases. People won't shoot what they can't see, so teach your students to get to concealment, and to shoot through it if their threat is behind it.

9. People love cover so much they give it a hug. Reliably. Like all the time. Teaching distance from cover/concealment is an important skill and one that is necessary.

10. Malfunctions happen. They just do. But unless you're carrying a crap gun, they're rare. In all my videos I have never seen someone clear a malfunction that needed a tap to the baseplate to get the gun back working again or whose mag fell out when the gun went click...rack and reassess is necessary though. In a couple of instances, a strip, rack, reload would have helped.

Just some random thoughts...I hope we have met your jimmy rustling needs for today.
 

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