Church shooting in Ft Worth

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yukonjack

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No, they usually fall apart when pushed for speed or stress is introduced.


I see it all the time in various competitions. Man vs Man bowling pin matches is the best place to observe it. The next is to watch people that are used to shooting PAR timed matches shoot one that is Hit-Factor based. Par time means they have say 15 seconds to shoot 10 rounds. Hit-factor divides the score by the time in seconds it took to shoot it. Unless the Par is extremely short, it does not put enough stress on the shooter to validate their abilities.

I know of several shooters that do very well at generous PAR based events that finish way lower in the ranks at hit-factor scored events.

The first person that put accurate or semi accurate hit(s) on their intended target usually wins the gunfight.

I recently attended a match where they had a stage where there were 9 targets in row and only the A zone counted (about 6”x11”) as a hit. Distance was about 3 yards. You had to draw, engage the center 3 targets 2 rounds each, reload and engage the right 3, reload and engage the left 3. 5 point for hits, a penalty for misses.
The winner overall had 100% hits in 10.80 second with a production gun, not a race gun. That was against carry optic guns, open guns, and even PCCs.
There were a few with faster times (fastest was 9.95) but a miss was critical. As it should be, as where did that round go? The winner knew the pace he had to run it and still make the hits. 18 rounds, a draw, and 2 reloads, in less than 11 seconds.

It’s all about knowing your abilities and limitations when stress in introduced. I know for a fact the winner in the above match is capable of knocking a second or two off that pace, but might risk a miss. A miss could be costly.

Here were the top 9 of about 40 shooters.

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I hate to tell you this but performance in these shooting matches has nothing to do with how a shooter will respond in a real life shooting. Nothing about them are even the same. I know, I've been in both.
 

HFS

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Just heard part of this story on Channel 4 news about OK connection to the suspect.

Don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread: Local station reports the suspect in the White Settlement, TX church shooting was arrested in Grady County, OK several years ago for setting fire to a cotton field and also for allegedly assaulting a store owner somewhere in Oklahoma. A female got a restraining order against the man, saying he was violent with our without firearms.
A jail or prison chaplain they talked to said he remembered the suspect.

Found the link:
https://kfor.com/2019/12/30/texas-church-gunman-has-violent-oklahoma-criminal-record/
 

Mad Professor

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I hate to tell you this but performance in these shooting matches has nothing to do with how a shooter will respond in a real life shooting. Nothing about them are even the same. I know, I've been in both.

I don't fully agree with you. Someone that cannot perform at all at a match is very unlikely to increase their performance in a real life situation. I'd bet the opposite is true, they will actually perform worse. But, I'll agree with you the the ones that do well at the matches may fall apart and not perform adequately in a real life situation.

You can't really practice real life shooting. Adding stress to our drills is one way to help simulate this. And some competitions will help by introducing stress. Sometime shooting while our peers are watching and critiquing, adding a timer.
Having unknown changes introduced. There are "games" that have proven to help in real life. The Law Enforcement FATS is one such example.

I've drawn a whole bunch of shirt with my gun in a concealed carry match when the beeper went off and had to clear and get the shots on target without muzzling anyone including myself. I think the experience was a very valuable teaching tool.

And then there are those that get a gun, fire a few rounds, and start carrying it like a F/n woobie blanket. In situation like this shooting, they might as well have the blanket.
 

yukonjack

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I don't fully agree with you. Someone that cannot perform at all at a match is very unlikely to increase their performance in a real life situation. I'd bet the opposite is true, they will actually perform worse. But, I'll agree with you the the ones that do well at the matches may fall apart and not perform adequately in a real life situation.

You can't really practice real life shooting. Adding stress to our drills is one way to help simulate this. And some competitions will help by introducing stress. Sometime shooting while our peers are watching and critiquing, adding a timer.
Having unknown changes introduced. There are "games" that have proven to help in real life. The Law Enforcement FATS is one such example.

I've drawn a whole bunch of shirt with my gun in a concealed carry match when the beeper went off and had to clear and get the shots on target without muzzling anyone including myself. I think the experience was a very valuable teaching tool.

And then there are those that get a gun, fire a few rounds, and start carrying it like a F/n woobie blanket. In situation like this shooting, they might as well have the blanket.

Bunk. These matches do absolutely nothing to mimick the fight or flight adrenaline rush that is felt in a real life shooting situation. These matches simply induce shooter frustration. You have to put as much effort into your psychological preparations as you do into firearms training efforts.

In this Texas church shooting there's a reason Jack Wilson only fired one shot to take down the shooter. Maybe you'll figure it out, maybe not. Good luck.
 

dennishoddy

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Bunk. These matches do absolutely nothing to mimick the fight or flight adrenaline rush that is felt in a real life shooting situation. These matches simply induce shooter frustration. You have to put as much effort into your psychological preparations as you do into firearms training efforts.

In this Texas church shooting there's a reason Jack Wilson only fired one shot to take down the shooter. Maybe you'll figure it out, maybe not. Good luck.
No it's not bunk.
One that shoots competitions has to endure stress, tunnel vision and all the other things that happens when that timer goes off.
Granted nobody is shooting back, but there is that stress factor that the shooter must overcome which is far beyond what a shooter that goes to the range, bangs off 100 rounds, looks at the group and goes to the house will ever experience.
Training is training, and the more you experience with that stress level, the more you will be able to handle yourself when the SHTF and your training comes naturally to draw and shoot.
 

RickN

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I have never shot a match, but I suck at the range. I have shot a person, both shots in the chest. The guy lived but only a few years then the police killed him. When I talked to a range instructor who was a combat vet he told me that in a high stress situation a lot of people never think about sight picture, training, etc. They point the gun like their finger and it is usually on target. Which is why a lot of police used to say the most dangerous thing was a scared woman with a gun. They just point and shoot. Usually at close range. That is why you read so many stories about the old lady that killed the guys that broke in.

I am not saying training is not a huge help because it is. I am saying that shooting a match is far different than a real life shooting.
 

dennishoddy

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I have never shot a match, but I suck at the range. I have shot a person, both shots in the chest. The guy lived but only a few years then the police killed him. When I talked to a range instructor who was a combat vet he told me that in a high stress situation a lot of people never think about sight picture, training, etc. They point the gun like their finger and it is usually on target. Which is why a lot of police used to say the most dangerous thing was a scared woman with a gun. They just point and shoot. Usually at close range. That is why you read so many stories about the old lady that killed the guys that broke in.

I am not saying training is not a huge help because it is. I am saying that shooting a match is far different than a real life shooting.
That's because most self defense confrontations occur at 3 to 7 yards.(That's the reason the CC shooting stage is set at that distance) Proper sight picture, grip, etc., isn't always required at that range.
Accurate fire at a longer distance does require those training basics. If some banger is going to try and shoot me with a pistol at 20 yards, I'm running for cover. The chances of getting hit are nil and none because they don't know how to hit a moving target unless guess what? Training and practice.

The Texas shooter was killed by a skilled pistol marksman at 50'.
 

TeleStratMan

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I agree, but I can't help but think he shouldn't be talking to the news. Especially on something that happened so recently. Its a clean shoot as clear as can be, but man I don't think this is a good idea.

I agree. Its a major mistake to talk to the media because they have an anti-gun agenda and the bullet chasing lawyers will use this video against the good guy in a civil suit. The media is NOT our friend.
The church security team when it was formed should have been advised against speaking to the media about these types of situations.

Here's the bullet chasing lawyer:
Something like this:
"Mr. John Doe, in your own words, you stated that in your training you were trained to shoot at the torso and not the head. Why did you ignore your training and with reckless abandonment shoot the "victim" in the head. Shooting the "victim" in the head demonstrates you intended to kill him and not just stop the threat."

Its a shame that there are not laws that protect the REAL victims of crimes which FORBIDS Civil lawsuits if the District Attorney does not File Criminal charges in the shooting.
The Legal System Allowing civil lawsuits against the real Victims of Crime just Victimizes the Good Guy even more because of the financial burden of hiring legal defense for the trial and the mental stress as a result of this.
 
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