Man shot and killed by trooper after fleeing driver's license checkpoint in Miami, OK

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henschman

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I am probably one of the few people on here who support Police Officers. When they STOP, you STOP. When they say put your nose on the pavement you DO IT! That way you don't get shot. JMHO.

I am probably one of the few people on here who supports non-aggression... and swift, decisive defensive force when aggression is initiated by others.

I get you hate police. That's fine I hate attorneys...but you come out pointing a gun at me I'm guessing you're not asking me to tea. I suspect most rational people would agree. I also don't have time to ask "sir, I see you're pointing a gun at me ...are you mentally ill or do you mean me harm".....

I agree with you that it is absolutely expected that as soon as a cop sees a gun in the hand of a person he is stopping that he will shoot... which is why I pointed out that brandishing the gun, rather than immediately bringing it up and firing, was a really stupid thing for the late Mr. Collins to do. If anything in my previous comment indicated otherwise, it was unintentional. I was being tongue-in-cheek about the mental illness thing.

So much hate... in all fairness, it's not like I single out the police. I reserve these feelings for anybody who is willing to participate in the initiation of violence against other people. That includes lots of attorneys -- hell, a lot of politicians are attorneys, and Lord knows I hate them!

Maybe "hate" isn't the right word. I just find unprovoked violence to be morally abhorrent, regardless of who participates in it or what his justification is. I suppose it is the act itself that I hate. You know, "hate the sin, not the sinner." This is why I can be friends with people who do things I find objectionable, if they are otherwise good folks who I have something in common with.
 

Dave70968

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Many of these things could seemingly be avoided if policies were changed or approaches altered.
DINGDINGDING! We have a winner!
The focus should be on creating situations that have a higher chance for successful outcomes
That, and on not creating situations, period, when it's not absolutely necessary. I don't see a great and overriding policy need for a "Papieren, bitte" internal checkpoint; in fact, it used to be one of the things that we touted for making us better than the Communist world.
 

JB Books

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I get you hate police. That's fine I hate attorneys...but you come out pointing a gun at me I'm guessing you're not asking me to tea. I suspect most rational people would agree. I also don't have time to ask "sir, I see you're pointing a gun at me ...are you mentally ill or do you mean me harm".....

You don't hate ALL attorneys do you? My feelings are hurt.
 

henschman

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I think the breakdown that often occurs in these situations is in separating the before from after. I think several people here hate the situation that many cops are put in before these things occur, but do not begrudge what happens afterwards. I.e. Wondering why there are 'license stops' but not taking issue with cops defending themselves once confronted.
My view is that it doesn't make sense to separate the "before" from the "after." I don't believe that an aggressor can morally claim self defense. If the initial threat of force -- i.e. the license stop -- was unjustified, then so is any force used to stop someone from eluding it.
 

BadgeBunny

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You don't hate ALL attorneys do you? My feelings are hurt.

ROFLMAO! He especially hates you ... :wink2:

I dunno for sure but last time I checked he wasn't composing a hit list or anything ... :P Damned cop writes like a cop ... it's all you lawyers' fault ... you read too much into stuff ... don't tell me you don't -- I know ALL your deepest, darkest secrets ... haha!

So this is what happens when I go do some chores ... Lol ...

And I just gotta say ... I need a poster-sized print of that teapot! I'm still LOLing ...
 

TedKennedy

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The focus should be on creating situations that have a higher chance for successful outcomes

Please define "successful outcome".

Perhaps driver gets a citation after a random check, thereby earning a little revenue?

Perhaps driver has a large amount of cash on hand, thereby earning a lot of revenue?

Perhaps driver has no violation, is handed back his documents, and told to "have a safe trip". (driver leaves, relieved to not be in trouble, possibly aware that something's not right about a free American submitting to a checkpoint)
 

michaeld

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My view is that it doesn't make sense to separate the "before" from the "after." I don't believe that an aggressor can morally claim self defense. If the initial threat of force -- i.e. the license stop -- was unjustified, then so is any force used to stop someone from eluding it.

^^

Are you saying the guy was justified to pull his gun on the officers for being stopped at a checkpoint?
 

TenBears

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I watched a show that had OHP checkpoint victims on it, one lady had a medical condition and couldn't "comply". This trooper takes her to the hospital has blood drawn, throws her in the slam, test comes back negative for everything. She's out $3.000 for attorney and the Tulsa DA drops charges but won't tell her why. Like I've said before, police are the state and local version of the IRS.
 

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