100 years down the drain

[MoBoost]

I was flipping through the pages of 7th Edition of Hornady Reloading manual and downed upon me - they had some cool cartridges figured out back in 19th century:
6.5x55 Swede - est. 1891
7x57 Mauser - est. 1893
7.5x55 Swiss - est. 1889

And then I realized that 20th century was spent playing musical chairs with those three - move one bullet into another case, stretch it, trim it - repeat! And what do we have? - hundreds and hundreds of cartridges that claim to be the best at X, but none really doing anything better or different than the almost forgotten originals. We now have long and short action - 51mm or 63mm. Doesn't it make sense to just make a 57mm - best of the both worlds, right? And then you realize that you came up with solution to a problem that should have never existed!

Ok, ok, belted magnums didn't get made till 20th century ... 1910 I believe. But weren't all magnum requirement filled in 1873 with 45-70?

Ok, ok - centerfire varmint rounds didn't really take off till mid 20th century, but can we really compare any of them to the varmint king - 22LR made in 1887?

/rant off

I probably should get more sleep, but love to hear input!

 

[rebelracer79]

ok, ok you make a good point, but I wouldn't say the last 100 years was wasted. as for the 45/70 having magnums covered, yea if you wanna aim 10 foot above your target at 300 yds. and .22lr varmint king? whens the last time you wanted to take a .22 coyote hunting? And my biggest issue is you didn't mention anything in 30 cal. '06, .308, .300 win mag come on...

 

[ldp4570]

I for one love the 7X57MM Mauser. I only have one in the Ruger #1RSI, an its an older model with the longer throat. She'll shoot the newer loads i.e. 140gr very accurately, just about 4" high at 50yds, where the 175gr loads hit about 1" high at that range, and just a bit tighter. Inside 250yds I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the heavier loading for just about anything walking except for the larger bears, unless its all I had.

 

[MoBoost]

ok, ok you make a good point, but I wouldn't say the last 100 years was wasted. as for the 45/70 having magnums covered, yea if you wanna aim 10 foot above your target at 300 yds. and .22lr varmint king? whens the last time you wanted to take a .22 coyote hunting? And my biggest issue is you didn't mention anything in 30 cal. '06, .308, .300 win mag come on...

1.a) Either you are sighted in for 300 or not, 10 foot above or 10 inch above is still a miss, right?
1.b) You don't need a magnum to shoot far - all three originals will take game at 400 yards or further ... much further. I think magnums' job is too hit hard - and 45-70 does it flawlessly!
2) Just take 6.5x55 for yotes
3) 7.5x55 is 30 caliber and had the capacity of 30-06 in .308-sized case; today's bad-boy of long range shooting 6.5-284 is based on 284 win, which in turn is a replica of 7.5x55 case within thousands of inch. 284win should've been 7x55 Swiss - but that would be too easy and obvious.

 

[HiredHand]

Cartridge development and wildcats are pretty interesting stuff. Its a subject I wouldn't mind studying more.

 

[ripnbst]

1.a) Either you are sighted in for 300 or not, 10 foot above or 10 inch above is still a miss, right?
1.b) You don't need a magnum to shoot far - all three originals will take game at 400 yards or further ... much further. I think magnums' job is too hit hard - and 45-70 does it flawlessly!

Your margin of error when aiming 10 feet high is exponentially greater than aiming 10" high. Plus if your bullet is only falling 10" its a much straighter trajectory meaning likely less bullet flight time so there is less chance of the wind blowing, animal moving, etc. It creates an all-around better situation. 45-70 does it flawlessly inside 100 yards, push it out to 400 and the retained energy is significantly less than that of the true magnums say .300 win mag for example. Magnums job is to hit hard yes, but the true magnums will continue to hit hard at distance, they do have merit.

...the 45/70 having magnums covered, yea if you wanna aim 10 foot above your target at 300 yds. and .22lr varmint king? whens the last time you wanted to take a .22 coyote hunting? ...

I agree with both lines of thinking.

We now have long and short action - 51mm or 63mm. Doesn't it make sense to just make a 57mm - best of the both worlds, right?

Ok, ok, belted magnums didn't get made till 20th century ... 1910 I believe. But weren't all magnum requirement filled in 1873 with 45-70?

57mm to me is a compromise, not the best of both worlds. You are sacrificing the compact lightweight nature of the 51 for something larger and you are sacrificing the power of the full length 63. Each has its own place and neither one belongs where the other is. You can't defy physics and science. In order to get the power out of today's 63mm case cartridges, you need the 63mm of length. Going to a proposed 57mm case sacrifices power with all other aspects the same.

 

[MoBoost]

57mm to me is a compromise, not the best of both worlds. You are sacrificing the compact lightweight nature of the 51 for something larger and you are sacrificing the power of the full length 63. Each has its own place and neither one belongs where the other is. You can't defy physics and science. In order to get the power out of today's 63mm case cartridges, you need the 63mm of length. Going to a proposed 57mm case sacrifices power with all other aspects the same.

I completely disagree. When the original cartridges were developed there were no compromises need - they are powerful, accurate and manageable. The caliber and dimensions of the cartridge were completely unrestricted: form follows function!

30-06 on the other hand is a compromise. In development of 30-03 the caliber AND bolt face were predetermined; and as a knee-jerk reaction to poor performance of 30-40 Krag against 7x57 they wanted too much power. Development of .308 50 years later was Government way of saying "Guys, sorry about that 30-06 thing" - but I guess they didn't learn their lesson and again compromised by keeping caliber and bolt face the same!

 

[MoBoost]

Welp, this thread got quiet ...
So, what modern cartridges truly improve on original designs?

6.5x47 Lapua : duplicates the performance of 6.5x55 in 20% shorter case using 10-15% less powder.

Anything else out there?

 

[ldp4570]

Don't know if its been done, but would love to see a 7MM Mauser bullet in a short action case i.e. X51 or X45. I really think the 7MM would deliver the goods in any of these out to 400+yds.

 

[NikatKimber]

Don't know if its been done, but would love to see a 7MM Mauser bullet in a short action case i.e. X51 or X45. I really think the 7MM would deliver the goods in any of these out to 400+yds.

7mm-08?