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dennishoddy

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They both are a modified version of the old Colt PocketLite/Mustang.

I'd like to get my hands on a P3-AT. It still offers the highest power density of all the micro guns. 7rds of .380 in 10.7oz (loaded).

I'm not a fan of .380, but there are times I could carry that when I couldn't carry a gun.

The P3AT is what has been in my pocket with Corbon +P since they came out.
Killed coons, armadillo, and used on animals as big as coyotes to dispatch a wounded one.
Every round has made full penetration.
Like others said, it’s not a primary defense weapon, but it’s always on my person when it would be impossible to carry anything else.
 

rc508pir

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I got "carry lazy" when I got my P238...it goes everywhere in my pocket and my $1,500 Kimber pretty much became a safe queen. This new Springer looks just like the P238/Kimber Micro/Colt Mustang. I think it'll be popular.

If you want penetration in a .380, look up Buffalo Bore. 1,065fps with 100gr hard cast flat nose getting north of 30" of penetration on ballistics gelatin. I have a few boxes of it but have never shot it. Its pretty friggin spicy for a .380
How long was the test barrel?
 

JD8

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That's the thing, they are not the best we have. For the average guy that's making his own gel, yeah. But Ammo manufacturers have a load more money to get and use those body trauma dummies. They have simulated bones and organs in them. Even light clothing can often make a difference in penetration depth. Penetration by the way is FAR more important than expansion in the body cavity. The expansion you see in gel tests is NOT indicative in any form of damaged tissue.

Contrary to popular belief these days, energy is very important in SD loads. its what carries the bullet mass through the body.

By the way, what gun, or length of the test barrel was that load you posted?

You still haven't posted what your load was the last time you shot someone with a .380. Could you please post your results? Now in terms of what I've said please reference the video I posted and what I said I carry. Realize that nothing I said has anything to do with expansion (BIG HINT: reference the load I'm talking about) get back to me and explain how the penetration numbers of the particular load I spoke of are inferior.

Now when you speak of energy, where is the critical point to which damage is done. Can you define it? Because it's not linear.
 

rc508pir

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You still haven't posted what your load was the last time you shot someone with a .380. Could you please post your results? Now in terms of what I've said please reference the video I posted and what I said I carry. Realize that nothing I said has anything to do with expansion (BIG HINT: reference the load I'm talking about) get back to me and explain how the penetration numbers of the particular load I spoke of are inferior.

Now when you speak of energy, where is the critical point to which damage is done. Can you define it? Because it's not linear.
I didnt say that I shot anyone with 380. Shot a few with 9mm hp, but not with 380.

The point about expansion was that people think that is what actually causes damage to tissue and its not

As far as penetration for that load you are referencing doesn't mean anything really. Not without bone, organs or clothing. I have seen a gel test with 357 gold dot (gel dummy I mentioned) pass through a leather jacket (center mass by the way) then deflect off the sternum, travel along the ribs and out the lower rear of the gel dummy. So it can happen with any round.

"Now when you speak of energy, where is the critical point to which damage is done. Can you define it? Because it's not linear."
Not sure what you're asking there.
 

JD8

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I didnt say that I shot anyone with 380. Shot a few with 9mm hp, but not with 380.

The point about expansion was that people think that is what actually causes damage to tissue and its not

As far as penetration for that load you are referencing doesn't mean anything really. Not without bone, organs or clothing. I have seen a gel test with 357 gold dot (gel dummy I mentioned) pass through a leather jacket (center mass by the way) then deflect off the sternum, travel along the ribs and out the lower rear of the gel dummy. So it can happen with any round.

"Now when you speak of energy, where is the critical point to which damage is done. Can you define it? Because it's not linear."
Not sure what you're asking there.

So basically you berate people for carrying a .380, saying it's because they've never shot anyone.... when you haven't either.

I get your point about expansion, however, there's a huge point you're missing about the round I referenced. Hint: It's not a JHP.
Until you post results in a human or anything close, then you don't know how that particular round out of what I carry will react. If you're going to get particular on us then post repeatable results proving your theories.

When I asked my question it was in response to you citing how important energy is. I'm asking at which point does the energy become significant?
 

Go_Ordnance

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I didnt say that I shot anyone with 380. Shot a few with 9mm hp, but not with 380.

The point about expansion was that people think that is what actually causes damage to tissue and its not

As far as penetration for that load you are referencing doesn't mean anything really. Not without bone, organs or clothing. I have seen a gel test with 357 gold dot (gel dummy I mentioned) pass through a leather jacket (center mass by the way) then deflect off the sternum, travel along the ribs and out the lower rear of the gel dummy. So it can happen with any round.

"Now when you speak of energy, where is the critical point to which damage is done. Can you define it? Because it's not linear."
Not sure what you're asking there.

Absent a hit to a vital organ or cns, you need blood loss. The more the better. Expansion creates a bigger wound channel... which is to say causes more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.

Penetration alone isn’t all that. The 62 gr penetrators (steel core and tungsten) in Iraq and Afghanistan just punch little holes. The old 55 grain tumbled. That tumbling also creates a bigger wound channel, and more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.
 

druryj

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Well, we have once again beat this horse even deader’n he was to start with. I agree a .380 is not ideal. I don’t give a damn about gel tests other than they’re cool to watch. I’m okay with a .380 if I can’t carry anything bigger. I understand that I may indeed hit the bad guy center mass numerous times and he might keep coming at me. I’ll deal with that when it happens.

I doubt very many of us think the .380 is a top choice but I think it’s okay for what it is. Lots of folks wouldn’t be able to carry at all if they didn’t have a little gun and round like the .380 and all the things that go along with it like recoil, slide stiffness, etc. my wife is an example, she will not carry a J frame or a 9mm but she might a Kimber Micro in .380 ACP and as far as I’m concerned that beats a harsh word.


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Go_Ordnance

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Well, we have once again beat this horse even deader’n he was to start with. I agree a .380 is not ideal. I don’t give a damn about gel tests other than they’re cool to watch. I’m okay with a .380 if I can’t carry anything bigger. I understand that I may indeed hit the bad guy center mass numerous times and he might keep coming at me. I’ll deal with that when it happens.

I doubt very many of us think the .380 is a top choice but I think it’s okay for what it is. Lots of folks wouldn’t be able to carry at all if they didn’t have a little gun and round like the .380 and all the things that go along with it like recoil, slide stiffness, etc. my wife is an example, she will not carry a J frame or a 9mm but she might a Kimber Micro in .380 ACP and as far as I’m concerned that beats a harsh word.


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Great post. The common hoobachuck ain’t gonna stick around long enough to figure out what caliber is pointed at them, or say “pff, that little 380 didn’t hurt, gimme another dose”. The PCP dude who feels no pain is a highly unlikely scenario for the average person.
 

Perplexed

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Perplexed’s GF here. In my experience (limited). Even a .22 can kill. My buddy was a coroner for a while and i got to listen to some interesting stories and tag along to an autopsy or three. One dude was a doper who happened to hit on his doper buddies gf. Well, he was passed out on the couch and the buddy shot him, point blank, right below the ear. A very interesting thing happened. The blowback under the skin from the muzzle blast expanded the skin, made a sort of gas filled balloon that slowed the velocity of the bullet enough that it shattered when it hit the skull and traveled around to the back of his head and upper spine. What killed him was the second shot. He had jumped up and ran outside after the first, doper #2 yelled at him and as he lifted his arm to defend, the second shot hit between his ribs and made a few laps around his liver, ending up in his spleen causing him to quickly collapse and bleed out into his body cavity. The entrance wound was minimal on both shots except for the blackened skin around the first from the close range. We never recovered the fragments from shot #1 but retrieved the majority of #2. Seeing the damage, when we opened up the chast cavity, from that itty bitty bullet made an impression that wont be soon forgotten.
 

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