.

[rc508pir]

Absent a hit to a vital organ or cns, you need blood loss. The more the better. Expansion creates a bigger wound channel... which is to say causes more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.

Penetration alone isn’t all that. The 62 gr penetrators (steel core and tungsten) in Iraq and Afghanistan just punch little holes. The old 55 grain tumbled. That tumbling also creates a bigger wound channel, and more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.

Actually no, the expansion channel has shown to cause almost no damage to tissue. I'm sure the expansion is incredibly painful but that's just from having a massive cavity suddenly open up inside you. There is literally VERY little damage. The only tissue that is actually damaged by a bullet is the actual tissue that comes in contact with the bullet

If you have ever seen a deer or other animal shot with a Soft point or HP, you would see a 2 to 3inch track where the tissue is totally destroyed. That 2 to 3in diameter track of destroyed tissue is what was actually in contact with the mushroomed bullet face. The larger diameter is caused from the bullet hitting the tissue and pushing into it, stretching the tissue before the bullet actually tears through it. Even though that tissue is completely destroyed, its still pretty survivable (provided as you said, minus a hit to major organ, cns, or a major artery) because the body is self sealing. Torn tissue swells and prevents blood loss. That is why a deep knife wound is much more dangerous than a bullet hole. Cut tissue doesn't swell enough to prevent the loss of blood. Which brings me to the part you said about the 55grn M193 used in Vietnam.

M193 was said to be so devastating from tumbling. That could be further from the truth. In fact it was a closely guarded secret by the DOD. DOD simply let the tumbling rumors stand. The truth is, it was the fact that high velocity bullet shattered on impact and the fragments cut through the tissue and organs. The sharp copper jacket fragments created multiple track wounds of cut tissue the bleed much more than the lead fragments did. Vietnamese often bled out after being shot with M193.

M855s steel core wasn't nearly as good as M193. The steel core didnt deform like M193 and so the jacket often didnt break up into as many fragments. Dont be fooled though, M855 is still fairly effective. I have my own personal experience with M855

 

[rc508pir]

Well, we have once again beat this horse even deader’n he was to start with. I agree a .380 is not ideal. I don’t give a damn about gel tests other than they’re cool to watch. I’m okay with a .380 if I can’t carry anything bigger. I understand that I may indeed hit the bad guy center mass numerous times and he might keep coming at me. I’ll deal with that when it happens.

I doubt very many of us think the .380 is a top choice but I think it’s okay for what it is. Lots of folks wouldn’t be able to carry at all if they didn’t have a little gun and round like the .380 and all the things that go along with it like recoil, slide stiffness, etc. my wife is an example, she will not carry a J frame or a 9mm but she might a Kimber Micro in .380 ACP and as far as I’m concerned that beats a harsh word.


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OK. just trying to have a honest conversation here. Sorry you need to shut it off. I must have offended or broke another rule.

 

[rc508pir]

So basically you berate people for carrying a .380, saying it's because they've never shot anyone.... when you haven't either.

I get your point about expansion, however, there's a huge point you're missing about the round I referenced. Hint: It's not a JHP.
Until you post results in a human or anything close, then you don't know how that particular round out of what I carry will react. If you're going to get particular on us then post repeatable results proving your theories.

When I asked my question it was in response to you citing how important energy is. I'm asking at which point does the energy become significant?

Jesus... Im not berating anyone. Not understanding where your getting that impression either. If you want numbers and crap then read up on DR Martin Fackler, COL Retired. A former Army and Navy trauma surgeon who was the first to study wound ballistics. HERES A HINT; His work is where the FBI originally got a lot of this data about bullet penetration

 

[druryj]

OK. just trying to have a honest conversation here. Sorry you need to shut it off. I must have offended or broke another rule.

No no; I don’t need to shut it off at all and you haven’t offended (me anyway) or broken any rules. By all means, continue on if you wish. I guess my deal is that this exact topic has been beat to death all over the internet and over countless beers and in countless gun stores. I get what you’re saying, or are trying to get across and am not saying you are wrong. But I just ask that you get that I said that I; me; druryj; am OKAYwith the crummy little .380. You do not have to be okay with it. You don’t have to agree or like it. Just let me be okay with it, okay? So get on after it if you like or let’s go talk about something new maybe. You pick. I’m going to press check my G29 now and make sure I’ve got those hot Underwood 180 gr Gold Dots ready in case some punk decides to break in and murder my wife and me. The 10MM should be enough. I think.


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[rc508pir]

No no; I don’t need to shut it off at all and you haven’t offended (me anyway) or broken any rules. By all means, continue on if you wish. I guess my deal is that this exact topic has been beat to death all over the internet and over countless beers and in countless gun stores. I get what you’re saying, or are trying to get across and am not saying you are wrong. But I just ask that you get that I said that I; me; druryj; am OKAYwith the crummy little .380. You do not have to be okay with it. You don’t have to agree or like it. Just let me be okay with it, okay? So get on after it if you like or let’s go talk about something new maybe. You pick. I’m going to press check my G29 now and make sure I’ve got those hot Underwood 180 gr Gold Dots ready in case some punk decides to break in and murder my wife and me. The 10MM should be enough. I think.


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Yes it has been beat to death, Im sure. I dont think its a good idea to carry 380, My personal opinion based on other Professional opinions, to include Surgeons who have done work studying wound ballistics. But HOLY CRAP! People got triggered for sure.

 

[dennishoddy]

Absent a hit to a vital organ or cns, you need blood loss. The more the better. Expansion creates a bigger wound channel... which is to say causes more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.

Penetration alone isn’t all that. The 62 gr penetrators (steel core and tungsten) in Iraq and Afghanistan just punch little holes. The old 55 grain tumbled. That tumbling also creates a bigger wound channel, and more internal bleeding / faster blood loss.

As I’ve stated before, death comes with blood loss to the brain.
The quicker the blood loss, the faster the death.
The .380 using those parameters can work just fine because MODERN ammo has made the .380 just as powerful as the .45acp and beyond.

(9mm vs .45 discussion) lol

 

[O4L]

Big vs Little

 

[Profreedomokie]

After watching a clip of a .380 going through a windshield at an angle and passing through a 12" melon, I feel fine carrying one. We have four and my pick is a 10 shot Sphinx .380 AT. It is as big as today's small 9's but, it's very accurate.

 

[Go_Ordnance]

Actually no, the expansion channel has shown to cause almost no damage to tissue. I'm sure the expansion is incredibly painful but that's just from having a massive cavity suddenly open up inside you. There is literally VERY little damage. The only tissue that is actually damaged by a bullet is the actual tissue that comes in contact with the bullet

If you have ever seen a deer or other animal shot with a Soft point or HP, you would see a 2 to 3inch track where the tissue is totally destroyed. That 2 to 3in diameter track of destroyed tissue is what was actually in contact with the mushroomed bullet face. The larger diameter is caused from the bullet hitting the tissue and pushing into it, stretching the tissue before the bullet actually tears through it. Even though that tissue is completely destroyed, its still pretty survivable (provided as you said, minus a hit to major organ, cns, or a major artery) because the body is self sealing. Torn tissue swells and prevents blood loss. That is why a deep knife wound is much more dangerous than a bullet hole. Cut tissue doesn't swell enough to prevent the loss of blood. Which brings me to the part you said about the 55grn M193 used in Vietnam.

M193 was said to be so devastating from tumbling. That could be further from the truth. In fact it was a closely guarded secret by the DOD. DOD simply let the tumbling rumors stand. The truth is, it was the fact that high velocity bullet shattered on impact and the fragments cut through the tissue and organs. The sharp copper jacket fragments created multiple track wounds of cut tissue the bleed much more than the lead fragments did. Vietnamese often bled out after being shot with M193.

M855s steel core wasn't nearly as good as M193. The steel core didnt deform like M193 and so the jacket often didnt break up into as many fragments. Dont be fooled though, M855 is still fairly effective. I have my own personal experience with M855

Under 100 meters (when it impacts a body), the 55gr yaws around 90 dergrees and fragments. Over 100 it yaws and breaks into two pieces. 200 and beyond it yaws 180 degrees and stays intact. Yaw/tumble, is close enough for typing on a phone. It breaks up because of the yaw/tumble.

The Army is looking for a replacement for the 62 gr, which was designed to penetrate Russian body armor, because of lack of lethal effectiveness in unarmored enemy.

The point still stands that penetration alone is not the end all / be all. Do you shoot ball ammo in your chosen caliber, or expanding rounds?

Lastly, I agree that 380 is not as effective as some other calibers. No one has demonstrated that it’s not effective. Again, where are all the examples of folks killed by bad guys because they mistakenly chose a 380? Reading the interwebz and how all the experts agree it’s inadequate, it shouldn’t be too hard to find.

 

[Go_Ordnance]

The .380 using those parameters can work just fine because MODERN ammo has made the .380 just as powerful as the .45acp and beyond.

When yer ancient 1911 don't go bang because it’s a jam-o-matic, the 380 is more powerful.

(1911 vs modern discussion) lol