5 Clues that Training is Not Realistic

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Michael Brown

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Every year thousands of citizens spend millions of dollars in the firearms training industry. However are these dollars well spent?

On the face of things, I would say yes. I think there is rarely a place where money is not wasted than in training. However I think the vast majority of firearms training is not realistic and does little to prepare its students for violent confrontations.

Thus I submit this list of 5 clues that, if seen, indicates that training is not realistic.

1) Emphasis on shooting beyond 7 yards.

Very few law enforcement shootings occur past this distance. Even fewer in the non-LEO world. While it may be entertaining to shoot further and it may improve trigger control, it is not time well spent in a time-crunched world.

2) No Integrated Options.

If an instructor does not have a background in anything except firearms, this is a real strong clue that he doesn't really understand the nature of the problem. Self-defense minded instructors should have extensive H2H training and not just a two week defensive tactics course. Actually firing the weapon is only about 1% of the problem, however most people spend 99% of their time training this 1%.

A quality self-defense program should consider many different force options including H2H, OC, contact/edged weapons etc.

3) No Force on Force Training.

See above.

If the training amounts to shooting at paper or steel targets, regardless of how complex and skillful the demonstration, there is minimal benefit received after the student learns basic trigger control.

Most instructors tend to try to develop incremental improvements in the students ability to manipulate their firearm at more and more impressive levels. These increments are very rarely a deciding factor in confrontations. The speed at which you manipulate your firearm is not the limiting factor in defensive engagements. The main limiting factor is the speed of decision-making. If you only shoot, you don't test this aspect.

At a police training conference once, Rob Leatham (perhaps the greatest shooter in the history of competitive pistol shooting) gave a demonstration where he responded to three pop-up targets and instantly mowed them down with three shots in about 1 second from the draw.

While no one would dispute that such a demo takes tremendous skill and dedication, it was a young patrolman who asked the most relevent question about the demo: "What does that show? There's no way you could identify three threats that quickly."

If you're not training against a living, moving adversary there's no realism in the training.

4) Instructor's equipment looks like it belongs in competition (i.e. speed rigs, kydex OWB) or emphasis on competition.

If you see an instructor using this equipment, you can immediately tell he hasn't put in the flight time in FOF training. If he/she had, they would have found their kydex holster constantly losing the gun during H2H and grappling situations.

They probably would have also spent a small fortune in kydex to replace all their broken holsters.

There are some exceptions to this rule. For instance, Kelly McCann has a video series where he works out of a kydex OWB but he openly states that its only so the students can see what he's doing easily. When he was active operationally he always wore a leather IWB when in plainclothes.

Instructors whose resumes are largely based on their competition success generally do not make good self-defense trainers. Competition is a highly specialized skill and has little to do with real defensive engagements.

While I enjoy competition shooting, I recognize that its really little better than playing racquetball in terms of preparing you to face real problems. I participate purely for recreation and because I like most of the folks involved.

5) No Impact Reduction Suits (i.e. Bulletman Suit, High Gear, FIST)

If an instructor isn't using one, then there isn't any real contact. If there isn't any real contact, there isn't any realism.

If you don't reach an incredibly adrenalized state, you can't expect that your techniques will hold up under stress. Thus you can't count on them. The only way to bring injury potential down to an acceptable level and still reach this adrenalized state is to use a padded adversary.

No If's And's or But's.

While I am certain this post will find its detractors, its still true. If the firearms training you've had displays any or all of these clues, it wasn't worth much past the barest novice level.

Unfortunately the vast majority of firearms training does display most of these clues. Even the impressive high dollar schools with instructors with seemingly impressive resumes and really cool equipment.

Fortunately times are changing and good training that covers the real needs of self-defense is becoming more available.

Michael Brown
 

bratch

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+1

Really wish I was closer to Tulsa and could get in on your group.


I've been pretty luck and most of my training has been the opposite of what you've posted. I also consider myself luck in getting to study under a very well respected knife instructor weekly for 3 months. To me his techniques were very realistic and reality based.
 

bratch

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So far:

Givens
Suarez
Janich

I've been very happy with my experiences and am upset because Mike and Tom are going to be in Hinton and Amarillo on the same weekend so I'll have to pick. :mad:

The FOF segemnts of Suarez's class were eye opening to say the least. Its really hard to get people to understand unless they've done it.
 

bratch

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I also have McCann/Grover's "Inside the Crucible" series and H2H DVDs but haven't gotten to use them a whole lot.
 

Michael Brown

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All really good stuff.

Is Janich the knife instructor you've been studying with weekly?

If so, you are incredibly fortunate. If it isn't, who is it?

I'm going to Tom Givens' class in Hinton in January as well.

Michael Brown
 

bratch

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Over the summer I worked in Denver and got to work with Mike almost every week. He lives north of Boulder and held a private class in Boulder. I wish I would have known about it last year when I was up there and I could have had 2 summers with him.

That alone was almost enough to get me to move to Denver :wink2: He's a great trainer and an even better person.

I think I'll be at Givens. I'm torn but the guys who are supposed to be coming with me want handgun training instead of knife. Tom's class last year was my first class and really good experience.
 

10mm1911

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Okay, Mike, I've got to ask. What do you have against kydex? I can tell from your posts that you've experienced some siginificant problems, and I'm kinda baffled by that.

I've worn a kydex OWB all day, every day for about 10 years now. I wear it concealed, and it hides just fine. It's comfortable, concealable, and fast. What more do I want in a holster? My kydex holster, or some of them, at least, have been through 2 retention schools. Nothing broken, no guns falling out on the ground.

I would like to also point out that I wear quality kydex holsters, never to be confused with Israeli wonder plastic (Fobus). Fobus products have failed dramatically in every retention school I've attended.
 

Michael Brown

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10mm1911 said:
Okay, Mike, I've got to ask. What do you have against kydex? I can tell from your posts that you've experienced some siginificant problems, and I'm kinda baffled by that.

I've worn a kydex OWB all day, every day for about 10 years now. I wear it concealed, and it hides just fine. It's comfortable, concealable, and fast. What more do I want in a holster? My kydex holster, or some of them, at least, have been through 2 retention schools. Nothing broken, no guns falling out on the ground.

I would like to also point out that I wear quality kydex holsters, never to be confused with Israeli wonder plastic (Fobus). Fobus products have failed dramatically in every retention school I've attended.

Kydex will hide just fine. It conceals as well as any other holster and it is extremely fast, thus its prominent use in competition shooting where the only concern is quick acquisition from the holster.

However, its quick acquisition from the holster should give you some idea of how fast it also comes out if your adversary gets to it first. IWB kydex is much less of a problem. If it comes out quick for you, it comes out quick for anybody. It also means that it comes out easily in a struggle even when nobody has their hand on it. The laws of physics can't be re-written.

I'm not sure what schools you've attended where handgun retention was part of the curriculum, but I will offer that the vast majority of schools that I've seen don't train it realistically on the local and national level.

The most well-known retention system is the Lindell system. Jim Lindell was the first to recognize the problem of handgun disarmament. Handgun disarmament as trained in the Lindell system is always done standing from what I term the "Zombie Grab" where the attacker reaches right away with one or both hands.

The problem is attempted gun disarms simply don't occur this way. I say so because I have been involved in several both in uniform and plainclothes as a police officer and have studied hundreds more.

Gun disarms almost always occur from the clinch or a grounded position. This means that both parties have hit the ground and probably very hard. The only OWB kydex holster I've seen come remotely close to satisfying the requirements of retention after a fall is the Sidearmor holster that has its loops integral to the holster, not the current version that can be interchanged with a paddle.

We have seen Blade-Tech, Uncle Mike's, Comp-Tac, Fobus, Safariland and other makes of kydex all fail to the degree that I cannot in good conscience recommend them for self-defense.

In fact, I will take credit for Safariland re-designing their Raptor system after trying to sell it to the Tulsa Police Department. The rep hung the holster and belt from a pull-up bar and then hung from it to demonstrate its durability.

The rangemaster then called me from the audience and asked me to give it a realistic test. The rep put the belt on and I ripped the holster from its backing in about 15 seconds of aggressive disarming as he tried to defend it.

So much for "Level 4 Retention".......

If you haven't seen your kydex holster fail in ten years, my guess is you haven't been training very hard with it. That means hard wrestling where you are picked up and deposited hard on the ground and continued to fight from there. It means being punched in the face and disoriented prior to a clinched gun grab or takedown.

Nobody, that I know of, is doing this type of training in this immediate area on a wide-scale basis and only a handful are doing it anywhere. If you have trained with someone who is, consider yourself fortunate.

However if you had, and I am not trying to be condescending or arrogant, but you probably would already have seen the answer firsthand.

Some very well-known trainers teach what they refer to as handgun retention in a very static manner in the Lindell format that they claim is effective. In fact I attended a class where a nationally known instructor and gun mag writer was pummeled and disarmed trying to use the Lindell system against another 180 pound officer who had wrestled in high school.

If your system only works against the mildly aggressive, it isn't worth much. It has to work against a large, strong, determined, resisting opponent. If it won't work against a college defensive lineman, you can't rely on it.

I offer that example since my first incident where a suspect attempted to take my gun was a former Dallas Cowboys defensive end here in Tulsa.

If you test your kydex in this type of environment where an aggressive opponent with minimal restrictions attacks you with full-power strikes, takedowns, and grappling and it doesn't fail, you can consider it good to go.

Until then, you're just guessing.

Michael Brown
 

okgr8outdrs

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Mr. Brown,

Not sure if this is taking this in the wrong direction or not, but in your opinion, do open-top, leather pancake style holsters provide adequate retention, or should I have opted for the thumb-break model? I currently use a Galco Concealable, but I have never wrestled with anyone over 40 pounds (my kids) while wearing it.

I have been thinking about personal defense training quite a bit lately, and wondered which order to attend your classes for maximum benefit.
 

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