9mm vs .40

[dennishoddy]

While do admire the style of the folks who say " modern bullet technology makes the 9mm equal of 40s and 45s" WHAT possibly makes them think that this miraculous "new technology" isn't also applied to 40 and 45?????
I am ancillary to one of the largest ammunition manufacturers in the nation. They make lots of L.E. ammo ie Gold Dots, Hydro-Shocks and several other well known highly recommended defensive ammunition brands, and I can guarantee that there is not a single caliber that HASN'T benefited from all this "new technology". So as good as the 9 now is, the 40 and 45 are equally as far ahead!
Personally I like 40 greater penetration than 45, heavy bullets you just can't get in 9, better through barriers like glass, auto body, drywall, etc. good capacity! What's not to like?? But I also carry a 45 a lot too!

Kurt, I've been advocating the very same thing you said for years on this forum.
a 115 grain "miracle round" 9mm does not have the kinetic energy a 230 grain bullet has with the "same miracle technology" applied to smash through rib bones, cell phones in pockets, etc. Physics on heavy moving objects has never been proven wrong.
The Miracle 9mm rounds that can expand to .45 acp diameter dimensions are unique in design?

There is a time when velocity overcomes bullet weight in ballistics technology, but it's much more disproportionate than the difference between 9mm and .45.

 

[dennishoddy]

I read a great write up on here years ago. The author IIRC was a leo who went back to school and became a pathology Dr. And worked in a morgue in Atlanta. He shared his learnings from gun shot victims that came in every day. Basically he stated that a GSV who had 1-2 GSWs typically turned out to be a large caliber like .357 or the such but when a victim came in with 9-10 wounds, him and his assistant would place bets on the caliber, 9mm was the most popular as it turned out. Of course some turned out to be .380 and the likes. But almost every time if there was only 1-2 wounds, it was never a 9mm.
It was a very good read and I wish I could reproduce it.

I read that in the past as well. He worked in Dallas Tx if I remember right.

 

[D. Hargrove]

There is a time when velocity overcomes bullet weight in ballistics technology, but it's much more disproportionate than the difference between 9mm and .45.

Same reason a 17HMR is not a recommended Sniper Round...
OK, not really.....

 

[dennishoddy]

Same reason a 17HMR is not a recommended Sniper Round...

exactly, and you don't shoot elephants with a .22 rf. It's all about physics.

 

[MacFromOK]

exactly, and you don't shoot elephants with a .22 rf. It's all about physics.

It's all about shot placement IMO... perps don't usually weigh several tons.

 

[dennishoddy]

It's all about shot placement IMO... perps don't usually weigh several tons.

LOL, that's true, but no matter where you shot an elephant with a .22rf it would not not get past the skull bone or hide, unless it was a solid heavily constructed .22 running at 4000 fps that would have the physics of velocity vs penetration.

 

[MacFromOK]

LOL, that's true, but no matter where you shot an elephant with a .22rf it would not not get past the skull bone or hide, unless it was a solid heavily constructed .22 running at 4000 fps that would have the physics of velocity vs penetration.

Well... if you held its trunk perfectly straight and shot up a nostril, ya might be surprised...

 

[dennishoddy]

Well... if you held its trunk perfectly straight and shot up a nostril, ya might be surprised...

Actually behind the ear is the perfect spot for small caliber rifles.
Walter D.M. Bell has become a legend among elephant hunters due to his great success in the ivory trade during the golden age of hunting in East Africa. He is known as “Karamojo” Bell due to his numerous safaris through this remote wilderness area in North Eastern Uganda. He is famous for perfecting the brain shot on elephants, dissecting their skulls and making a careful study of the anatomy of the skull, so he could predict paths of bullet travel from a shot at any angle in order to reach the brain. Using mostly 6.5mm and 7mm caliber rifles, he was an advocate of shot placement over big bore power for killing efficiently.

Modern writers on the internet and in magazine articles have tended to refer to him and his tally of elephants in this vein, “He shot all of his several hundred elephants with a 7x57mm rifle” or words to that effect. In fact, Walter Bell killed 1,011 elephants in the course of his career. Since most people refer to him for his small caliber prowess and his elephant tally I thought I would try and break it down, because there are a great number of people quoting what “Karamojo Bell” did or didn’t do and I have noted a common tendency in the last few years to play down what he did with small caliber rifles. Perhaps this is in direct relation to the resurgence in popularity of magnums and the larger safari rifles. Craig Boddington is quite apt to mention the "few hundred elephants" that Bell took. (Mr. Boddington, I believe, is an erstwhile heavy rifle enthusiast.)

Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures.

• He shot exactly 1,011 elephants; about 800 of them were shot with Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles and round nose 173 grain military ammo.
• He shot elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets and noted that it was probably the most beautiful rifle he ever had, but gave it up due to faulty ammunition.
• He shot his first safari with a Lee Enfield in .303 British and the 215 grain army bullet. Thereafter he kept a ten shot Army& Navy Lee Enfield as a sort of back up and in the hope he might find ten elephants silly enough to stand around long enough for him to use the whole magazine.
• He went to rifles chambered in .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a .32 caliber cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and again returned to the 7x57mm. He later wrote that the .318 Westley Richards was more of a reliable killer for certain shots, while the 7x57 was a "surgeons" rifle.
• He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it; whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.
• He owned a .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle made by Thomas Bland & Sons, but did not use it after his first safari, as he considered the action not rugged enough and the Mauser repeating action to be just as quick as a double for aimed shooting.
• He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle and realised this fully when he saw that elephants shot with a .303 died just as quickly when shot in the same place as a .450/400 double rifle with both triggers wired together, so they went off at the same time.

 

[D. Hargrove]

.450/400 double rifle with both triggers wired together, so they went off at the same time.

Bet that left a mark!!

 

[MacFromOK]

And not a single kill shot up a nostril...

Myths abound. Amazing how a bit of knowledge/experience can make such a difference in practically everything.