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The Range
Law & Order
BREAKING: Justices Rule That 2nd Amendment Also Governs State and Local Gun Laws
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<blockquote data-quote="Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow" data-source="post: 1190929" data-attributes="member: 7123"><p>Wow, PFX, this will take awhile to dissect all that:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Doesn't mean that at all. It actually means quite the opposite doesn't it, when they explicitly retained the " 'common sense' gun laws are still ok" language? It's an *extraordinarily* narrow ruling (Heller), and this new case that puts Heller onto the states/cities, doesn't touch the vast majority of the nations' 20,000 plus federal, state and city gun laws.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are exactly right about that, but I don't think for the reason that you think. It's because of the "common sense" laws are ok BS of HELLER - it's a tiny exception to the giant rule that violating the 2A of the constitution is hunky-dory. It's a tiny tiny win, in the long run, because we all know that eventually "common sense" laws will come to mean, to the SCOTUS, pretty much anything any legislator anywhere can dream up to 'keep us safe'. But in the short run, it's a victory to be celebrated. The only real win is strict scrutiny - the common sense BS crap is *very nearly* at the far other end of the spectrum, called the 'rational basis' test. We have lost overall with Heller in the long run, unless Heller is strengthened as we go along, which is unlikely. They've drawn *some* sort of intermediate-type scrutiny here, but sounds like it's closer the the rational basis end of the spectrum than other "intermediate scrutiny" tests, such as those explicity applied to laws discriminating on the basis of gender & mental retardation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As mentioned, they still retain enormous power in this area, unfortunately for you, me, the founding fathers, the 2A, and freedom, due to the narrow ruling of Heller itself (not McDonald).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You will not find a bigger champion of the 10th amendment anywhere than me, but the state's rights are limited by what IS in the constitution. The 2A IS in the constitution. It's supposed to be a major limit on gun access regulations - unfortunately, it's only the tiniest of tiny limits with Heller/McDonald, at least so far... And the incorporation doctrine via the 14th amendment has been well-settled for decades, with the exception of the SCOTUS treating the 2A like a bastard child, and completely ignoring (until today) it's clear nature as being "fundamental". If you're arguing that the entire incorporation doctrine is so much bunk from the get-go, then I'm kinda with you on that. But it's so well-settled, and so entrenched in the jurisprudence going back to the 19teens and even before, that it's just impossible to change that without a constitutional amendment -- McDonald didn't make up incorporation - it just correctly applied the settled doctrine to the 2A - well all but the 4 with their heads firmly planted in their rectums applied the test correctly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, not really - the opposite is true but that is not. In fact, that's precisely the entire POINT of the 2A envisioned by the Founders, the opposite of what you stated - that IF (or when) the government takes away the other rights, be it the 1A, 10A, or others, all is not YET lost necessarily - the 2A will at that point STILL be potentially useful to restore the democracy - with at least the possibility of the people taking back the lost rights through the barrel of a gun, if all political action fails, if the 2A is still in place. But it doesn't work the other way - if the 2A is gone first, and THEN the other rights are taken, then we're screwed. </p><p></p><p>Just my .02. Don't mean to offend....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, post: 1190929, member: 7123"] Wow, PFX, this will take awhile to dissect all that: Doesn't mean that at all. It actually means quite the opposite doesn't it, when they explicitly retained the " 'common sense' gun laws are still ok" language? It's an *extraordinarily* narrow ruling (Heller), and this new case that puts Heller onto the states/cities, doesn't touch the vast majority of the nations' 20,000 plus federal, state and city gun laws. You are exactly right about that, but I don't think for the reason that you think. It's because of the "common sense" laws are ok BS of HELLER - it's a tiny exception to the giant rule that violating the 2A of the constitution is hunky-dory. It's a tiny tiny win, in the long run, because we all know that eventually "common sense" laws will come to mean, to the SCOTUS, pretty much anything any legislator anywhere can dream up to 'keep us safe'. But in the short run, it's a victory to be celebrated. The only real win is strict scrutiny - the common sense BS crap is *very nearly* at the far other end of the spectrum, called the 'rational basis' test. We have lost overall with Heller in the long run, unless Heller is strengthened as we go along, which is unlikely. They've drawn *some* sort of intermediate-type scrutiny here, but sounds like it's closer the the rational basis end of the spectrum than other "intermediate scrutiny" tests, such as those explicity applied to laws discriminating on the basis of gender & mental retardation. As mentioned, they still retain enormous power in this area, unfortunately for you, me, the founding fathers, the 2A, and freedom, due to the narrow ruling of Heller itself (not McDonald). You will not find a bigger champion of the 10th amendment anywhere than me, but the state's rights are limited by what IS in the constitution. The 2A IS in the constitution. It's supposed to be a major limit on gun access regulations - unfortunately, it's only the tiniest of tiny limits with Heller/McDonald, at least so far... And the incorporation doctrine via the 14th amendment has been well-settled for decades, with the exception of the SCOTUS treating the 2A like a bastard child, and completely ignoring (until today) it's clear nature as being "fundamental". If you're arguing that the entire incorporation doctrine is so much bunk from the get-go, then I'm kinda with you on that. But it's so well-settled, and so entrenched in the jurisprudence going back to the 19teens and even before, that it's just impossible to change that without a constitutional amendment -- McDonald didn't make up incorporation - it just correctly applied the settled doctrine to the 2A - well all but the 4 with their heads firmly planted in their rectums applied the test correctly. No, not really - the opposite is true but that is not. In fact, that's precisely the entire POINT of the 2A envisioned by the Founders, the opposite of what you stated - that IF (or when) the government takes away the other rights, be it the 1A, 10A, or others, all is not YET lost necessarily - the 2A will at that point STILL be potentially useful to restore the democracy - with at least the possibility of the people taking back the lost rights through the barrel of a gun, if all political action fails, if the 2A is still in place. But it doesn't work the other way - if the 2A is gone first, and THEN the other rights are taken, then we're screwed. Just my .02. Don't mean to offend.... [/QUOTE]
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