Here's Another Interesting Case Concerning the First Amendment

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Gadsden

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nope, it's actually 100% accurate, verifiable by fact. would you like me to show you the numbers?

do you seriously believe there is more violence committed against police than vice versa?

is that your final answer?
If I told you what I really believe the mods would surely take issue with it. Therefore, I'll keep my opinion about you, including your strings of comments where you are apparently talking to yourself and your endless supply of "facts" to myself.
 

joegrizzy

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the obvious power dynamic is any police stop is that an officer has the power to end your life.

YES, some people are also armed. YES sometimes the officer is not informed of this.

BUT

in 100% of EVERY police contact, you KNOW the police officer can and sometimes DOES draw even before making contact. the threat of you being dead is always there. you can say this is true of police, but only in a paranoia schizoid reality. the numbers do not justify this.

in 100% of EVERY police contact, you KNOW that the police officer can and sometimes DOES simply want to just cuff you and take you in. you don't have to be charged with a crime. you can just be detained or held indefinitely.

sure, i mean i guess a flash mob of evil brown people could show up and attack police at any given moment, but......man again, the numbers simply reflect that's EXTREMELY rare. it's more rare than school shootings at this point. for contrast, if i start naming people *i personally know who have been violated by police, it's gonna exceed the character limit*. i'm not even joking, everyone i know has a story of police overreach. you can say "well i'm a cop and all these people have done these things to me!" but you have to understand *that you are the one initiating and being the aggressor and then having someone *return violence* is not really much of a defense, even if on the side of the state*. objectively. like most people understand our military doctrine on being able to just murder someone is stricter than our local police.

again, i've had my rights violated by police. for contrast; i've certainly never violated the rights of any police officer ***because get this i'm not in any position to do so***.

this isn't hard. surely you understand a concerned citizen when the issue of police overreach has never been fully address and burning down random parts of cities certainly did nothing about the real issues people like me had with things liiiiiike

no knock warrants
1033 program
indefinite detention
lack of video, police ending recordings, taking cameras, etc etc

again, if you want to suspect me, why shouldn't i suspect you?

any thing you *accuse* me in your mind i can accuse you of, PLUS you have the implicit threat of the power of the state. that's.....a pretty big difference lol. i don't see how you don't get this.

next time, i'm calling in backup at a traffic stop. why not? what would you do if i politely told the officer: for my safety, i am not going to respond until my backup arrives. i will be more than happy to assist you with whatever you need at that point in time, but until then please wait in your patrol car until my backup arrives for my personal safety?

you think that seems outlandish, yet you have that power. that's the power dynamic. and the thought of it becoming a bit more shifted towards the "potential bad guy" scares you.

so you should realize how scared people are by YOU.
 
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TedKennedy

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the obvious power dynamic is any police stop is that an officer has the power to end your life.

YES, some people are also armed. YES sometimes the officer is not informed of this.

BUT

in 100% of EVERY police contact, you KNOW the police officer can and sometimes DOES draw even before making contact. the threat of you being dead is always there. you can say this is true of police, but only in a paranoia schizoid reality. the numbers do not justify this.

in 100% of EVERY police contact, you KNOW that the police officer can and sometimes DOES simply want to just cuff you and take you in. you don't have to be charged with a crime. you can just be detained or held indefinitely.

sure, i mean i guess a flash mob of evil brown people could show up and attack police at any given moment, but......man again, the numbers simply reflect that's EXTREMELY rare. it's more rare than school shootings at this point.

again, i've had my rights violated by police. for contrast; i've certainly never violated the rights of any police officer ***because get this i'm not in any position to do so***.

this isn't hard. surely you understand a concerned citizen when the issue of police overreach has never been fully address and burning down random parts of cities certainly did nothing about the real issues people like me had with things liiiiiike

no knock warrants
1033 program
indefinite detention
lack of video, police ending recordings, taking cameras, etc etc

again, if you want to suspect me, why shouldn't i suspect you?

any thing you *accuse* me in your mind i can accuse you of, PLUS you have the implicit threat of the power of the state. that's.....a pretty big difference lol. i don't see how you don't get this.

next time, i'm calling in backup at a traffic stop. why not? what would you do if i politely told the officer: for my safety, i am not going to respond until my backup arrives. i will be more than happy to assist you with whatever you need at that point in time, but until then please wait in your patrol car until my backup arrives for my personal safety?

you think that seems outlandish, yet you have that power. that's the power dynamic. and the thought of it becoming a bit more shifted towards the "potential bad guy" scares you.

so you should realize how scared people are by YOU.
After the cop gets done busting your head, he'll have a laugh down at the station telling the story to his buddies. You'll still be sitting in jail when he's finished his shift, knocked back a couple cold beers and is ready to slap the wife around.
 

joegrizzy

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After the cop gets done busting your head, he'll have a laugh down at the station telling the story to his buddies. You'll still be sitting in jail when he's finished his shift, knocked back a couple cold beers and is ready to slap the wife around.
teachers and cops are the highest professions for swinging, statistically.
 

joegrizzy

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it's a horrible job, that's why i don't do it lol.

i dunno.

let me restart with a thought experiment based on reality that i touched on briefly earlier:

a person is livestreaming from their computer in their house. they are playing a video game while interacting online with thousands if not millions of people, instantly.

one of these people, maybe multiple people, all know the streamer's address. these people could be minors, likely are minors. they could be 12. let's say they are 12.

this 12 year old calls the police and says the person streaming (mind you, they are already streaming thus would fit into the theoretical psuedo illegal status this case is concerning, thus this is very relevant to the topic even they you may not think so i assure you please follow these are fun) has a hostage, a gun, and is making threats of violence.

the police send the swat unit, full tilt. door is broken open, streamer turns around and stands up, with hardcore gamer mouse still in hand, and gets immediately ventilated by about 30 shots.

meanwhile, the 12 year old that called in the tip is watching.

what do you think this child understood of the police? that they were for their safety? or they were a dog of the state that only exists for violence and can be exploited as easily as the AI in the game you are playing?

and if you think "well how could anyone know?!" you need to understand that *multiple* streamers have been swatted *multiple* times, this REALLY happens. you'd think after AT LEAST the first raid, you might i dunno have some sort of digital reference that could keep the physical address tied to the streamers url so you could check, literally in an instant, if the tip about the hostage situation or the bomb threat, or the shooter was legit or *just a literal child exploiting the gang violence of the state that is you*.

and, if you think THAT's the real threat; then we live in a dystopian future wherein the biggest threat isn't actual crime, but being killed by the "good guys" who were told you were a "bad guy" by a pissed off 12 year old that you were beating in an online game.

anyone who believes livestreaming is a threat to POLICE, when things like swatting are COMMON, does not believe in objective reality.
 

joegrizzy

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and finally, for contrast, we can point to literally dozens if not hundreds of real life cases of swatting, which is the unjustified raid of a livestreaming person's home by a swat team, and to my knowledge absolutely ZERO real world cases of "flash mobs" attacking police *initiated* by a livestreamer *during* a police contact.

thus, if anything, i would like to see more laws on the PROTECTION of streamers AGAINST unjustifed police action, rather than some sort of law for officer safety, which again is already shifted INCREDIBLY in one direction.

from what i can see, 129 officers were killed in the line of duty in 2021. 73 of these were felonious, 56 were accidents, mostly traffic. so that's really 73 officers killed for the year of 2021.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-rele...forcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty
police killed *at least* 1,140 people in 2021.

https://policeviolencereport.org
objectively, to say that police are allowed to use extra judicial force on the citizenry *because* of the fear of the citizenry is simply not in the numbers. police kill 15x more people than are killed by police, this is raw numbers. that's a 1,461% increase. you could objectively say a person's fear that a police officer might kill them, justifiably or not, is literally a thousand percentage higher, based in fact. but those are raw numbers! we can do per capita!

per the same FBI UCR stats, there are 860,000 LEO's in the US. there are 331,900,000 people in the United States. Let's remove the LEO's from the citizenry: that gives us a nice figure we will round down to an even 331,000,000.

you have:
860,000 LEO's killing 1,140 citizens
331,000,000 killing 73 LEO's

assuming that one LEO is killing one citizen, or one citizen is killing one LEO (which isn't true but for the sake of easy math i digress) you could say:

that's one LEO killing a citizen for every 750 LEO's.
that's one citizen killing a LEO for every 4,534,246 citizens.

there are any number of stats you can call up from this data set that makes the myth of police violence merely a paranoid reality, while the threat of extra judicial police violence being very real. even the clip we saw earlier, with the guy in the mattress from here in OKC, yes that man was WAITING for police (again, if the police weren't being the aggressor, this situation wouldn't occur. i understand that is their job, but for the sake of objectively i am merely addressing this) to pull up the mattress and he was shooting with the intent to kill but get this because the police were allowed to already have their guns drawn and backup they were actually able to just kill the guy while one of them took an injury.

yes, you can subjectively say that the cops were justifiable but we're talking merely about objective violence here because we are addressing a situation wherein police are making an initial contact without any knowledge and someone is livestreaming. and thus, if the police are saying "well because of this theoretical situation we demand this legal protection" then i'm saying man i'd like a few more of them legal protections too because it seems like the numbers would suggest ya'll violate us more than the other way around.

i know you think this isn't true, but most people will never interact with gang violence but at some point they will undoubtedly be in a position to be harassed by the gang violence threat of the police. like most people won't have anyone draw a gun on them except police. won't have anyone threaten to cuff them and do things to them except police. etc etc. this is a REAL threat that the numbers suggest is 15x more likely for the citizenry.
 
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joegrizzy

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not to mention: the implicit threat of citizenry violence is ALSO a threat FOR the citizenry.

the threat of police violence is ONLY a threat for the citizenry, don't think many cops are killing other cops or committing violence against them.

so if you view from that standpoint, the numbers are EVEN FURTHER apart.

like just look at it as a contact thing.

yes, every person you contact as a leo might kill you.

BUT

that's true *for every single person in the citizenry as well, we live with that threat and in fact it's statistically FAR more likely for us*

PLUS

the citizenry have the threat of police violence.

statistically, violence against police is LESS LIKELY than violence against another citizen. again, as noted, there is virtually no violence of police officer against another police officer.

so you need to realize again that while you have the threat of all of us, we have the threat of all of us AND you. and YOU are the biggest one most of the time.
 

trekrok

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and finally, for contrast, we can point to literally dozens if not hundreds of real life cases of swatting, which is the unjustified raid of a livestreaming person's home by a swat team, and to my knowledge absolutely ZERO real world cases of "flash mobs" attacking police *initiated* by a livestreamer *during* a police contact.

thus, if anything, i would like to see more laws on the PROTECTION of streamers AGAINST unjustifed police action, rather than some sort of law for officer safety, which again is already shifted INCREDIBLY in one direction.

from what i can see, 129 officers were killed in the line of duty in 2021. 73 of these were felonious, 56 were accidents, mostly traffic. so that's really 73 officers killed for the year of 2021.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-rele...forcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty
police killed *at least* 1,140 people in 2021.

https://policeviolencereport.org
objectively, to say that police are allowed to use extra judicial force on the citizenry *because* of the fear of the citizenry is simply not in the numbers. police kill 15x more people than are killed by police, this is raw numbers. that's a 1,461% increase. you could objectively say a person's fear that a police officer might kill them, justifiably or not, is literally a thousand percentage higher, based in fact. but those are raw numbers! we can do per capita!

per the same FBI UCR stats, there are 860,000 LEO's in the US. there are 331,900,000 people in the United States. Let's remove the LEO's from the citizenry: that gives us a nice figure we will round down to an even 331,000,000.

you have:
860,000 LEO's killing 1,140 citizens
331,000,000 killing 73 LEO's

assuming that one LEO is killing one citizen, or one citizen is killing one LEO (which isn't true but for the sake of easy math i digress) you could say:

that's one LEO killing a citizen for every 750 LEO's.
that's one citizen killing a LEO for every 4,534,246 citizens.

there are any number of stats you can call up from this data set that makes the myth of police violence merely a paranoid reality, while the threat of extra judicial police violence being very real. even the clip we saw earlier, with the guy in the mattress from here in OKC, yes that man was WAITING for police (again, if the police weren't being the aggressor, this situation wouldn't occur. i understand that is their job, but for the sake of objectively i am merely addressing this) to pull up the mattress and he was shooting with the intent to kill but get this because the police were allowed to already have their guns drawn and backup they were actually able to just kill the guy while one of them took an injury.

yes, you can subjectively say that the cops were justifiable but we're talking merely about objective violence here because we are addressing a situation wherein police are making an initial contact without any knowledge and someone is livestreaming. and thus, if the police are saying "well because of this theoretical situation we demand this legal protection" then i'm saying man i'd like a few more of them legal protections too because it seems like the numbers would suggest ya'll violate us more than the other way around.

i know you think this isn't true, but most people will never interact with gang violence but at some point they will undoubtedly be in a position to be harassed by the gang violence threat of the police. like most people won't have anyone draw a gun on them except police. won't have anyone threaten to cuff them and do things to them except police. etc etc. this is a REAL threat that the numbers suggest is 15x more likely for the citizenry.
These stats makes no sense.

So, as a thought experiment. Police show up at 10 hostage situations where the victim is to be shot. They shoot and kill 9 perps, but the 10th perp kills LEO. So, from that, you take that the population is 9x more likely to be shot by police than the other way around? There isn't any other salient point there?
 

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