Hooking Up Three Phase Genie To 220V Well

dennishoddy

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
73,852
Reaction score
33,834
Location
Ponca City Ok
Just a note....... (if it even makes any sense)
Static converters do work but they are not perfect by a long shot. You only get 2/3 the rated HP and the motor will run hot even at that. You also will need a start cap momentarily in the circuit to get the thing running Remember single phase is 240V center tapped to get the neutral and 120V across either winding to neutral. That makes the waveform 180 deg out of phase NOT the 120 deg a 3 phase motor is looking for. The manufactured leg out of the caps will float all over the place as load goes up and down. For most applications a rotary converter or VFD will be a better choice.
Your correct. I was trying to keep it simple. Looking at the sine wave on an oscilloscope would verify the phase shift before getting back into the 120 degree area which is never perfect like a transformer conversion in industrial environments which also fluctuates for a few milliseconds at startup.
Motor start up has a lot of phase issues no matter what gets it going.
What's also interesting is back in the day when working in the machine tool world as a CNC tech we had occasions during the day when one phase of the 460 would drop out plant wide. There were a couple hundred CNC computer driven machine tools in operation at that time. During the interruptions of the three phase, the machine tools never suffered any issues. They continued to operate as usual.
Lasted for several months even on weekends when the majority of the CNC machine tools were shut down.
One Sunday, went in with the minimum of employees on the job on machine tools, with only the heat treat facility open for business, and it was still happening.
With permission started shutting down every operation. When the situation corrected it turned out to be a three phase heat treat draw furnace element that had broken loose and went to ground that was on a timer. That is why the problem came and went.
Three phase doesn't need true 120 degree phase separation to operate. That is the optimum. It just needs a differential which puts it back to your observation that the phase converters are inefficient and the reason why.
BUT! They are cheap and will make 3 phase motors operate. Other systems at higher prices are better.
 

tyromeo55

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
1,288
Location
Tulsa
Your correct. I was trying to keep it simple. Looking at the sine wave on an oscilloscope would verify the phase shift before getting back into the 120 degree area which is never perfect like a transformer conversion in industrial environments which also fluctuates for a few milliseconds at startup.
Motor start up has a lot of phase issues no matter what gets it going.
What's also interesting is back in the day when working in the machine tool world as a CNC tech we had occasions during the day when one phase of the 460 would drop out plant wide. There were a couple hundred CNC computer driven machine tools in operation at that time. During the interruptions of the three phase, the machine tools never suffered any issues. They continued to operate as usual.
Lasted for several months even on weekends when the majority of the CNC machine tools were shut down.
One Sunday, went in with the minimum of employees on the job on machine tools, with only the heat treat facility open for business, and it was still happening.
With permission started shutting down every operation. When the situation corrected it turned out to be a three phase heat treat draw furnace element that had broken loose and went to ground that was on a timer. That is why the problem came and went.
Three phase doesn't need true 120 degree phase separation to operate. That is the optimum. It just needs a differential which puts it back to your observation that the phase converters are inefficient and the reason why.
BUT! They are cheap and will make 3 phase motors operate. Other systems at higher prices are better.

DH I know, you know what your talking about. Just adding for the home gamers. Hopefully anyone who would go out and buy something like a static phase converter would do a little research first. Sadly they probably wouldn't.


Loosing a phase in a large facility is an odd monkey. Typically it is thought of as a huge NO NO and for good reason. In practice a 3 phase motor will run on single phase and all the other motors running in the complex can act as idlers. Fan units and AHU's don't typically fare well because of the way they are loaded and sized. Its great you were able to track down that problem. Id be scratching my head hard looking for a problem on a large resistive load like that.

Static converters in a home you need to be kinda picky. We used one for years growing up on a commercial clothes dryer we had (6 kids go thru a lot of laundry) it worked for decades and is still going strong today. The best thing it has going for it is that the startup load is not super high, the motor is additionally fan cooled, once started the load was fairly constant and it had a respectable amount of rotational stored energy. I don't think I would use one on a fan, pump, or machine equipment.
 

Rooster1971

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
289
Location
Warr Acres
Has any of you folks wired a generator to a submersible well pump? I just ordered a Honda 8900watt gen to run my pump and house should I lose electricity. It’s tri furl, gasoline LPG and nat’l gas. I did buy a 60 Amp circuit box, breakers so far. I’m trying to figure out what else I need to buy. Wiring 10 ga and probably a transfer switch? I’m thinking a manual switch. Any opinions are appreciated.
Are you trying to protect a 10 ga circuit with 60 amp breakers? What’s the amp output on the gen. Around 27 amps? How long of a run from gen to panel?
Has any of you folks wired a generator to a submersible well pump? I just ordered a Honda 8900watt gen to run my pump and house should I lose electricity. It’s tri furl, gasoline LPG and nat’l gas. I did buy a 60 Amp circuit box, breakers so far. I’m trying to figure out what else I need to buy. Wiring 10 ga and probably a transfer switch? I’m thinking a manual switch. Any opinions are appreciated.
 

John6185

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
6,302
Reaction score
4,820
Location
OKC
I’m still on the road-Flagstaff and several forest fires around so we’ll be headed home tomorrow. Had a condo rented in Phoenix but it’s going to be around 113 degrees there so no fun-gave it up. As for the generator, I am believing it is a two phase vs three. I’ll find it on my porch a few days after I get home.
 

murphranch

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
493
Reaction score
1,121
Location
Grainola Ok
DH I know, you know what your talking about. Just adding for the home gamers. Hopefully anyone who would go out and buy something like a static phase converter would do a little research first. Sadly they probably wouldn't.


Loosing a phase in a large facility is an odd monkey. Typically it is thought of as a huge NO NO and for good reason. In practice a 3 phase motor will run on single phase and all the other motors running in the complex can act as idlers. Fan units and AHU's don't typically fare well because of the way they are loaded and sized. Its great you were able to track down that problem. Id be scratching my head hard looking for a problem on a large resistive load like that.

Static converters in a home you need to be kinda picky. We used one for years growing up on a commercial clothes dryer we had (6 kids go thru a lot of laundry) it worked for decades and is still going strong today. The best thing it has going for it is that the startup load is not super high, the motor is additionally fan cooled, once started the load was fairly constant and it had a respectable amount of rotational stored energy. I don't think I would use one on a fan, pump, or machine equipment.

DH I know, you know what your talking about. Just adding for the home gamers. Hopefully anyone who would go out and buy something like a static phase converter would do a little research first. Sadly they probably wouldn't.


Loosing a phase in a large facility is an odd monkey. Typically it is thought of as a huge NO NO and for good reason. In practice a 3 phase motor will run on single phase and all the other motors running in the complex can act as idlers. Fan units and AHU's don't typically fare well because of the way they are loaded and sized. Its great you were able to track down that problem. Id be scratching my head hard looking for a problem on a large resistive load like that.

Static converters in a home you need to be kinda picky. We used one for years growing up on a commercial clothes dryer we had (6 kids go thru a lot of laundry) it worked for decades and is still going strong today. The best thing it has going for it is that the startup load is not super high, the motor is additionally fan cooled, once started the load was fairly constant and it had a respectable amount of rotational stored energy. I don't think I would use one on a fan, pump, or machine equipment.

Could you 2 put that in Hank Hill and Boomhaur from King of the Hill language? I dang sure know who I’ll be asking the next time I have an electrical question. Definitely a couple of good men with a wealth of knowledge


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

dennishoddy

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
73,852
Reaction score
33,834
Location
Ponca City Ok
Could you 2 put that in Hank Hill and Boomhaur from King of the Hill language? I dang sure know who I’ll be asking the next time I have an electrical question. Definitely a couple of good men with a wealth of knowledge


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's kind of difficult to do that without understanding induction and induced electromotive force or EMF that is generated in the conductor.
Three phase, single phase, both need different phases in electricity to create magnetic fields that oppose and make a motor rotate.
Three phase is set up by the transformer feeding the motor as well as what some call single phase 230V.
There are different line transformers that set up different types of three phase. Delta wound or Y wound. Multiple ways to have a transformer and each have their own purpose. The motor must match what the transformer is feeding.
That's all pretty much industrial stuff, although there are some residential locations where three phase was used. We have one street in Ponca City where the homes are three phase as an experiment in the 70's. It's a great place to have a shop behind the home.
 

tyromeo55

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
1,288
Location
Tulsa
Could you 2 put that in Hank Hill and Boomhaur from King of the Hill language? I dang sure know who I’ll be asking the next time I have an electrical question. Definitely a couple of good men with a wealth of knowledge


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Your missing the real question. Between @dennishoddy and myself... Who is Boomhaur and who is Hank? I'm feeling DH is Hank. I think he might also already have the F250 and know more about propane and propane accessories.





 

tyromeo55

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
1,288
Location
Tulsa
there are some residential locations where three phase was used. We have one street in Ponca City where the homes are three phase as an experiment in the 70's. It's a great place to have a shop behind the home.

My last home was built in 55 and was supplied by an open delta system "high leg". When I bought the house it was still being used by the original Carrier condenser. would of been great for someone who needed my old shop and 3 phase. Everyone who looked at the house could of cared less
 

dennishoddy

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
73,852
Reaction score
33,834
Location
Ponca City Ok
My last home was built in 55 and was supplied by an open delta system "high leg". When I bought the house it was still being used by the original Carrier condenser. would of been great for someone who needed my old shop and 3 phase. Everyone who looked at the house could of cared less
We used that old 208V wild leg when I first got into the industrial field. Really popular because one could rob 120V from the A or C phase and power accessories on the machine tools. The problem with that was for some reason they always selected the C phase on the right.
that resulted in a misbalance of power at the transformer with C phase at twice the amperage of A phase. It was pretty ugly until a complete rebuild of the system with 480V three phase done by commercial contractors after adding 200,000 some square feet to the manufacturing facility and replacing all of the old machine tools or their electrical systems. Spent many months in the cabinets upgrading them and replacing the motors. I did enjoy that type of work though.
I do have some horror stories though about being told to hook up machine tools on a 480V system live on a greasy wood ladder with no insulating gloves. Bare handed, prior to OSHA.
Do it or the person waiting at the door for your job will fill it today.
 

tyromeo55

Sharpshooter
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
1,288
Location
Tulsa
We used that old 208V wild leg when I first got into the industrial field. Really popular because one could rob 120V from the A or C phase and power accessories on the machine tools. The problem with that was for some reason they always selected the C phase on the right.
that resulted in a misbalance of power at the transformer with C phase at twice the amperage of A phase. It was pretty ugly until a complete rebuild of the system with 480V three phase done by commercial contractors after adding 200,000 some square feet to the manufacturing facility and replacing all of the old machine tools or their electrical systems. Spent many months in the cabinets upgrading them and replacing the motors. I did enjoy that type of work though.
I do have some horror stories though about being told to hook up machine tools on a 480V system live on a greasy wood ladder with no insulating gloves. Bare handed, prior to OSHA.
Do it or the person waiting at the door for your job will fill it today.
We do cmml and industrial work exclusively. Have a couple machine shops as regular customers. For some reason they all say "Don't get your ladder out we have a ladder you can borrow".... yea right. Those things are always warn out busted and extremely slippery. Add working overhead, live, bare handed..... No thank you.
 
Top Bottom