I had a run in with a CCW'er last night...

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Shoot Summ

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For some reason I can't leave this alone.

Please don't confuse this as bashing any LEO, it is not, but this incident was handled poorly, on both sides. Don't the Officers involved typically control the situation? I'm not an LEO, and I have the greatest respect for those that are, it's a tough job, with little respect. That said I also understand the constant threat to the well being of the Officer and the need to control the outcome of any contact with public. I can see though that pulling your gun, pointing it at the occupants of the vehicle, and yelling did nothing to help the situation. Saying that this incident "almost got her shot" doesn't sit well with me. She did not have a gun in her hand, you escalated the situation to a level where everyone was nervous, if you shot her or the passenger it would have been awful. Again, who is in control of this situation? You state "If you act properly the Police will act properly". To me this is kind of like parenting, lead by example, I can assure you the thing those girls left with is thinking COPs are over reactive, gun pointing, yelling, maniacs. Not a good way to build respect.

As I stated in my first post, it is so easy to look at this from the outside, and critique the situation, I hope you and the other officer used it as a learning experience as well. For the public the suggestions are excellent. I approach any traffic stop as the Officer viewing me as a potential threat. I do everything possible to show that I am not, windows down, hands on the wheel, interior light on if it is after dark. I do not dig, look for, or move until the officer has told me to do so. I tell them I am carrying before any other action takes place, my wallet is in my pocket so I wait for the Officer to direct me to get it once he knows where my gun is.
 

Larry Morgan

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I don't have a CCW (yet?), but no way in h@#$ would I just whip out my my carry piece before an officer had a chance to look at and digest my CCW card...

There was a time I got pulled over pretty frequently...
I got into the practice of telling officers I was going to reach for the wallet in my pocket to show them my DL or even that I was going to reach for the glovebox to get the insurance. Most of the time they just say "Okay" and if it's night
they'll usually point the flashlight wherever I said I was going. I also would roll down the window and stick my one hand on the window opening and the other on the wheel while they were walking up.

I got the advice from a relative of a LEO that they really like it if your hands are somewhere easily visible when they approach. I can't say I wouldn't be same. He also commented that doing a small part to help the officer feel more comfortable about you as they are "feeling out" the stop can go a long way in how the rest of the stop goes. I took that advice to heart. I mean, really, what is most likely to have the best outcome for you when the officer has the ticket pad in his hand: you acting like a jerk, or you acting in a way he doesn't feel threatened. Seems pretty logical..
 

Glocktogo

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For some reason I can't leave this alone.

Please don't confuse this as bashing any LEO, it is not, but this incident was handled poorly, on both sides. Don't the Officers involved typically control the situation? I'm not an LEO, and I have the greatest respect for those that are, it's a tough job, with little respect. That said I also understand the constant threat to the well being of the Officer and the need to control the outcome of any contact with public. I can see though that pulling your gun, pointing it at the occupants of the vehicle, and yelling did nothing to help the situation. Saying that this incident "almost got her shot" doesn't sit well with me. She did not have a gun in her hand, you escalated the situation to a level where everyone was nervous, if you shot her or the passenger it would have been awful. Again, who is in control of this situation? You state "If you act properly the Police will act properly". To me this is kind of like parenting, lead by example, I can assure you the thing those girls left with is thinking COPs are over reactive, gun pointing, yelling, maniacs. Not a good way to build respect.

As I stated in my first post, it is so easy to look at this from the outside, and critique the situation, I hope you and the other officer used it as a learning experience as well. For the public the suggestions are excellent. I approach any traffic stop as the Officer viewing me as a potential threat. I do everything possible to show that I am not, windows down, hands on the wheel, interior light on if it is after dark. I do not dig, look for, or move until the officer has told me to do so. I tell them I am carrying before any other action takes place, my wallet is in my pocket so I wait for the Officer to direct me to get it once he knows where my gun is.

This is the most critical information in your post. The #1 rule in LE is to go home alive at the end of your shift. There is no requirement (nor should there be) for an officer to wait until a gun is in hand. The use of force continuum that all officers train on instructs them to use that level of force which is necessary to regain or maintain the safety of the officer and others. That level is always at least one level above that of the subject. It starts with verbal commands and goes all the way to deadly force.

You only need to ride in a patrol car on an active shift to realize that people do stupid things when cops are around. It's almost like a switch in the brain that turns off higher level reasoning. Not everyone does it, but there are enough that it's a known phenomenon. You will often arrive at a scene faster without using lights & siren. You will "cause" motorists to make mistakes because your presence makes them nervous. People will have diahrrea of the mouth as soon as you arrive. They will make sudden movements and grab things not in plain view to show you, because that will explain everything. They fail to realize how dangerous some subjects are, which makes LE VERY nervous when sudden movements coincide with a weapon or hidden space.

I wasn't there, but the contact officer frequently doesn't have time to communicate to the cover officer when a citizen suddenly grabs at something. Even given the SDA permit, you have no idea whether that permit holder just murdered her husband or not. That's why the notification is required and the officer usually asks where the firearm is, and to not put your hands near it. Going for the glove box with a gun inside is a HUGE no-no. The armed citizen needs to be cognizant of their actions and not be in "condition white" when dealing with an officer.

I find no fault with either officers handling of the situation, from either a LE or CCW perspective. Regardless of how the citizen viewed the contact, I'm sure they will never make that particular mistake again. The lesson was learned. :)
 

Shoot Summ

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This is the most critical information in your post. The #1 rule in LE is to go home alive at the end of your shift. There is no requirement (nor should there be) for an officer to wait until a gun is in hand. The use of force continuum that all officers train on instructs them to use that level of force which is necessary to regain or maintain the safety of the officer and others. That level is always at least one level above that of the subject. It starts with verbal commands and goes all the way to deadly force.

You only need to ride in a patrol car on an active shift to realize that people do stupid things when cops are around. It's almost like a switch in the brain that turns off higher level reasoning. Not everyone does it, but there are enough that it's a known phenomenon. You will often arrive at a scene faster without using lights & siren. You will "cause" motorists to make mistakes because your presence makes them nervous. People will have diahrrea of the mouth as soon as you arrive. They will make sudden movements and grab things not in plain view to show you, because that will explain everything. They fail to realize how dangerous some subjects are, which makes LE VERY nervous when sudden movements coincide with a weapon or hidden space.

I wasn't there, but the contact officer frequently doesn't have time to communicate to the cover officer when a citizen suddenly grabs at something. Even given the SDA permit, you have no idea whether that permit holder just murdered her husband or not. That's why the notification is required and the officer usually asks where the firearm is, and to not put your hands near it. Going for the glove box with a gun inside is a HUGE no-no. The armed citizen needs to be cognizant of their actions and not be in "condition white" when dealing with an officer.

I find no fault with either officers handling of the situation, from either a LE or CCW perspective. Regardless of how the citizen viewed the contact, I'm sure they will never make that particular mistake again. The lesson was learned. :)

Thanks Jerry, I appreciate the additional comments on this, I don't have the Officer's perspective at all having never walked in his shoes, so I appreciate any perspectives from that side.
 

EFsDad

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Even if you think that things could have gone better, and they always can, this is extremely important for people to know how or what can occur when you carry and have contact with the police.

Glad everyone is good and hope you stay that way!!!
 

j707h

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For some reason I can't leave this alone.

Please don't confuse this as bashing any LEO, it is not, but this incident was handled poorly, on both sides... I can see though that pulling your gun, pointing it at the occupants of the vehicle, and yelling did nothing to help the situation. Saying that this incident "almost got her shot" doesn't sit well with me... I can assure you the thing those girls left with is thinking COPs are over reactive, gun pointing, yelling, maniacs. Not a good way to build respect...

I do not dig, look for, or move until the officer has told me to do so. I tell them I am carrying before any other action takes place, my wallet is in my pocket so I wait for the Officer to direct me to get it once he knows where my gun is.


No, I completely disagree, and by that I mean, you're wrong.
A cops' job isn't to "help the situation", it's to serve and protect. When spd67 saw the girls hand in alarming proximity to a gun, at that moment his job was to protect his @$$ and that of his fellow officer. His actions were completely warranted.

Quick PSA: An insurance security verification shows proof of liability insurance. Liability insurance follows the insured, (whereas comprehensive and collision follow the vehicle) therefore proof of liability insurance should remain on the insured, in your wallet or purse... NOT your glove compartment. This logic becomes apparent in the instance you were to drive a friend or relatives vehicle. Thus your DL, CCL, and insurance verification should all be in your wallet.

This young lady was an idiot. In Germany for instance, if you talk back to the Poliezi, you get backhanded in the mouth. For stupidity like cavalierly reaching at a glock, they might only pull you out of the car and shake you a bit. And I'm all for instituting the same liberties stateside.. cause lemme tell you, the BPOL are respected because they deserve it, not because they built it into a clueless public.

So it didn't matter which officer it was, just because she handed him a CCL doesn't mean she can't then pick up a piece and open fire. She got off easy with a good verbal punch in the eye. And likely those girls drove away thinking as much as they did before, which is not at all.

Though I do like with your policy on police contact and I agree that besides telling the officer about your CCW, he needs to know where the gun is before you make a move.
 

Glocktogo

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No, I completely disagree, and by that I mean, you're wrong.
A cops' job isn't to "help the situation", it's to serve and protect. When spd67 saw the girls hand in alarming proximity to a gun, at that moment his job was to protect his @$$ and that of his fellow officer. His actions were completely warranted.

Quick PSA: An insurance security verification shows proof of liability insurance. Liability insurance follows the insured, (whereas comprehensive and collision follow the vehicle) therefore proof of liability insurance should remain on the insured, in your wallet or purse... NOT your glove compartment. This logic becomes apparent in the instance you were to drive a friend or relatives vehicle. Thus your DL, CCL, and insurance verification should all be in your wallet.

This young lady was an idiot. In Germany for instance, if you talk back to the Poliezi, you get backhanded in the mouth. For stupidity like cavalierly reaching at a glock, they might only pull you out of the car and shake you a bit. And I'm all for instituting the same liberties stateside.. cause lemme tell you, the BPOL are respected because they deserve it, not because they built it into a clueless public.

So it didn't matter which officer it was, just because she handed him a CCL doesn't mean she can't then pick up a piece and open fire. She got off easy with a good verbal punch in the eye. And likely those girls drove away thinking as much as they did before, which is not at all.

Though I do like with your policy on police contact and I agree that besides telling the officer about your CCW, he needs to know where the gun is before you make a move.

Do you always come off as a hardass like this? LEO's serve the community that pays them for their services. We don't need to make the LEO/citizen relations any more sour than necessary.
 

taymoor

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This young lady was an idiot. In Germany for instance, if you talk back to the Poliezi, you get backhanded in the mouth. For stupidity like cavalierly reaching at a glock, they might only pull you out of the car and shake you a bit. And I'm all for instituting the same liberties stateside.. cause lemme tell you, the BPOL are respected because they deserve it, not because they built it into a clueless public.

Please say this is a joke. Perhaps our LEOs should take a leaf out of the German book...:uhh:
 

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