IDPA/SSR change

[shootingbuff]

GTG

Funny about the competition remark. More funny if you knew me.

Just remember even shooting IDPA is a choice and if it is such a concern why bring the change about this late into the game?

Now folks who game will reload down to 110 which puts those shooting factory non +p loads at a disadvantage and giving more of an advantage to the re-loader, especially those using other than 38SPC. Again 38SPC is not the only cal allowed.

What I think now is there should be yet one more division for K-framed 38s and older non +P rated revos. Just Like there is for CDP and the 45ACP.

This way we can go to the everyman concept. Yet then would we have to have the over forty crowd shoot a higher PF? Damn good Idea! What about having 327 38SW and 32 HR in the new revo cat since they can make PF? Nope then we would have to have yet a split again because some of the 32HRs may not be able to handle 105PF and shoot lose. Thats ok because now we have a presidents and will just start yet anther division.

Naw let's just stop at splitting the 38s (not +p rated or 357s) out for their safety. Yes that is it their safety because those folks trying to make PF in a pistol that can not take it must be saved from their self. Now lets get behind health care, lol I could do this for days.

Really though if there is a concern then split the SSR div into SSR and SSR lt. I would be all for that and to upping the PF on SSR.

Take the jest as that and take self out of it. Then we may not agree, but you can see where I am coming from.

Late and btw keep up with your meds ;-)

 

[DC]

GTG-taking it little personnel eh? lol

My 2 " Taurus is shooting 750 with 158 loads and has held after at least 2000 rounds and that is nearly PF from a 2" bbl. If the timing or the slop needs to be attended to that is something many shooters can do.

the thing is that most of us will shoot that many rounds in a week just to get ready for a big match and at least that for monthly practice. so your talking about 25k to 50k in a year. Will your taurus hold up to that?

 

[David E]

A few years ago, in my quest to win a State IDPA title in each of the (then) 4 divisions, I bought up some factory PMC .38 ammo jacketed 130 RN.

I decided to chrono them, as the match was in Wisconsin. Imagine my surprise when the ammo did NOT make minor power factor!

Of course, I didn't think to check it until a day before leaving for the match. I didn't have time to reload, or find and check any suitable factory .38 special ammo. Now, I knew the Match Director and happened to mention this to him, He told me not to worry about it, as they would NOT chrono ammo at the match.

But I couldn't do that. I knew my ammo didn't make the power factor. If I won, I wanted it to be a clean win. So I bought Winchester white box .357 ammo. (at the time, $11 per 50)

THAT made minor (in a major way) and the muzzle flash was fun to watch, even in full daylight and almost set a hay bale on fire.

I successfully completed my State Title for each division run, using full magnum ammo for SSR.

I welcome the lower power floor.

 

[Glocktogo]

GTG

Funny about the competition remark. More funny if you knew me.

Not quite as funny if you knew me. For a little perspective, I'm one of the three people most responsible for the SSR PF change. Between myself and the other two who lobbied to get it changed, we hold ALL of the IDPA Nationals SSR division titles since the ESR/SSR split in 2005. We were also partially responsible for the ESR/SSR split, which all complaints to the contrary, has increased overall revolver participation in IDPA. All three of us won with K-Frames (Model 19's and one 66 to be specific). All three of us have literally worn out and broken revolvers in the quest for those titles. So sorry if I came off as a little harsh (as did you), but it IS a little personal for me.

All three of us travel the country competing in IDPA. All three of us design, SO, and run matches all over the country, to include the Nationals. All three of us talk personally to IDPA shooters from all over the world and count many of those responsible for holding IDPA matches as personal friends. We've talked to many, many shooters who expressed a desire to shoot revolvers in competition, but couldn't or wouldn't due to logistical issues.

Let's examine those "Full Power Service loads" (actually, it's "full charge service ammunition"). What exactly is that? Most people would probably say that it's a full power JHP load for the caliber specified. Do you always use a JHP load when you compete? Do agencies that issue service ammunition always use JHP's during qualifications? No, because it wouldn't be cost effective. Competitors and agencies use lead or FMJ ammunition that approximates their service load to save money. So what is an approximate load for SSR? Page 28 in the ammunition section of the IDPA rulebook states: "The goal is to compete with “service type” ammunition, not light target ammunition." What is the traditional light target load for .38 Special? It's a 148gr HBWC load at a nominal 700fps (Federal lists the Gold Medal Match at 690). That's a 102 PF, which doesn't meet the new criteria, even when considering the PF advantage of a fairly heavy bullet.

Now let's take a look at common .38 Special defense loads. Under Federal's Premium Personal Defense category: P38MA 125gr Nyclad - 103PF, PD38HS3H 110gr Hydra-Shok – 108PF, P38HS1 129gr +P Hydra-Shok – 122PF. Winchester's offerings under the Personal Protection section: X38S9HP Silvertip - 104PF, X38S7PH 125 +P JHP - 118PF, X38S8HP 125 +P Silvertip – 118PF, X38SPD 158 +P LSWCHP – 140PF. Speer loads: 23720 125gr +P Gold Dot HP – 118PF, 23921 135gr +P Gold Dot Short Barrel – 116PF. So from 3 major ammunition manufacturers published load data for nine .38 Special “service type ammunition” loads (both +P and non-+P), we have an average PF of 116. Only one of those loads exceeds the old 125PF, primarily due to its 158gr weight. Four of these nine loads average a mere 108PF.

Now let’s look at what you would call “target” loads from these manufacturers, which actually aren’t target loads so much as “practice” loads. Federal AE38K 130gr FMJ – 116PF, AE38B – 158gr LRN - 122PF. Winchester Q4171 130gr FMJ – 104PF, Q4196 150gr LRN – 127PF, USA38JHP 125gr +P JHP – 118PF. Speer Lawman 53750 & 53833 158gr +P TMJ – 142PF each. So for seven practice loads, the average is 124PF. The bottom 4 loads in this bunch average 115PF. The two most prevalent loads available at your nearest Wally World are going to average about 110PF. So, based on this data, which pretty much represents what’s available as service ammunition, which is a better eqivalent for .38 Special in competition, 125PF or 105PF? I didn’t include Remington in this because they didn’t list load data openly on their website, but including it wouldn’t change the numbers much.

Factoring for atmospheric conditions and velocity variances between individual guns (we tested about 10 when recommending this change), the 105PF represented a safe margin for most every SSR shooter. Now you could literally fly to a match, pick up ammo locally if necessary (because the airline lost your checked bag with your ammo in it) and shoot the match you spent a lot of money getting to without getting disqualified because you didn’t make power.

The rulebook does not require the use of .38+P as a minimum, nor is it always desirable. the .38 Special cartridge isn't a 9mm equivalent and we shouldn't try to make it one. We should also remember that IDPA is a sport for everyone, not just members of the He Man Woman Hater’s Club. Not everyone will be as tolerant of recoil as some. I’ve listened to Jerry Miculek say for the last couple of years that he was going to give up ESR, because the recoil is tearing him up. I know that shooting 300 round practice sessions with 130PF ammo in my 19 was not at all pleasant, even compared to shooting 165PF in my polymer KZ-45 when I shot CDP.

Sorry I jumped your case earlier, but we put a lot of thought and effort into bringing about this change. I didn’t have time to type up this lengthy explanation at the time. Hopefully, this will give you reason to reconsider the whether the change is BS. Of course you don’t have to agree with it, but that’s why there are 5 different divisions to choose from.

Okay, I'm back on my meds now!

 

[grwd]

gtg,
what are you doing, giving evidence to back up your opinions;

this is a gun board!

 

[John Z Sr.]

The power factor change is what it is, I've shot a few hundred IDPA matches and have yet to see a chrono at ONE of them. When I shoot USPSA matches (my prefered game) any Level 2 or higher match, ALWAYS has a chrono station. Let steel be the chrono, it don't go down, you don't get the score. I personally as a revo shooter could care less what you set the PF at, just let me use brass of my lenght, not what you say must be on the barrel, except .38 Spec is ok in barrel marked .357 Mag,,,, .40 S&W is ok in barrel marked 10MM,,,, .44 Spec is ok in barrel marked .44 Mag,,, but I can't use 45 GAP in 45 ACP 625 or .38 Long Colt in .38 Spec. The above non sense rules are why I personally prefer USPSA and ZSA over the rule game. Just my humble opinion

 

[Glocktogo]

The power factor change is what it is, I've shot a few hundred IDPA matches and have yet to see a chrono at ONE of them. When I shoot USPSA matches (my prefered game) any Level 2 or higher match, ALWAYS has a chrono station. Let steel be the chrono, it don't go down, you don't get the score. I personally as a revo shooter could care less what you set the PF at, just let me use brass of my lenght, not what you say must be on the barrel, except .38 Spec is ok in barrel marked .357 Mag,,,, .40 S&W is ok in barrel marked 10MM,,,, .44 Spec is ok in barrel marked .44 Mag,,, but I can't use 45 GAP in 45 ACP 625 or .38 Long Colt in .38 Spec. The above non sense rules are why I personally prefer USPSA and ZSA over the rule game. Just my humble opinion

Yep! If you don't like a game, you can always vote with your feet!

 

[Buzzdraw]

The power factor change is what it is, I've shot a few hundred IDPA matches and have yet to see a chrono at ONE of them. When I shoot USPSA matches (my prefered game) any Level 2 or higher match, ALWAYS has a chrono station. . .

The presence of a chrono station is very common at the IDPA Sanctioned matches I'm familiar with.

It is uncommon to see one at a regular club match, as one is likewise uncommon at a Level 1 (club level) USPSA match.

 

[Glocktogo]

We chrono at the Nationals every year and I'm aware of a couple of state/regional matches in Oklahoma where we have as well.

 

[shootingbuff]

Been on a a trip and had to deal with a daughter with a kidney infection.

Read a couple and stopped because it is either redundant or self is in the reasoning.

Best to all and support the sport how you think it will promote the sport and the concept of IDPA without self in it and I came across harsh on purpose to make sure folks chimed in.

Though GTG we may not agree I would still like to met you some day.

As I fade from this thread I recall many of the comments from the IDPA invitational(no I was not there) and interviews of BW and some of the BoD then and after.......

lol

Best to everyone.