LEO asked me to remove my gun and leave it in car during traffic stop

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kcatto

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1) Unless he wanted to find out, he was stopping your wife for a traffic violation and you are not part of that process unless you contribute to him being less safe i.e. you were not cooperative. I would do the same as this trooper if I were simply writing a traffic citation.

2) NOTHING is needed to ask anyone any question. It is your answer and the level of detention that determines what is admissable or not. A police officer can ask you just about anything but the only things you are required to provide if you are the subject of an investigation are your identifiers i.e. full name, address, date of birth, and, if driving, driver's license and vehicle information.

Failure to provide any of those if you are the subject of an investigation or traffic stop will likely result in your arrest. Anything else you are not required to provide, although failure to provide some pieces of information or failure to answer some questions may result in you being detained far longer than neccessary.

Michael Brown

I agree with this statement in bold if you are a plain citizen but if you are approaching someone as a peace officer in official capacity, I was taught in Criminal justice, that an officer while in uniform was required to have some sort of probable cause.... In other words an officer is not supposed to be able to just walk up to some one sitting on a park bench and ask for name, address, etc.... if they have not committed any potential infractions creating some sort of probable cause???? Has this changed???

I just re-read your statement and being the subject of investigation means there was probable cause in initial interaction, so yes an officer can than approach and ask anything he/she desires..... correct???
 

Michael Brown

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I agree with this statement in bold if you are a plain citizen but if you are approaching someone as a peace officer in official capacity, I was taught in Criminal justice, that an officer while in uniform was required to have some sort of probable cause.... In other words an officer is not supposed to be able to just walk up to some one sitting on a park bench and ask for name, address, etc.... if they have not committed any potential infractions creating some sort of probable cause???? Has this changed???

I just re-read your statement and being the subject of investigation means there was probable cause in initial interaction, so yes an officer can than approach and ask anything he/she desires..... correct???

You either misunderstood your criminal justice professor or else he/she is unqualified to be teaching you, which would be suprising as most C.J. professors have some law enforcement experience.

For example, I get called to a house where a burglary has been committed. The owner says he has been burglarized. He has committed no crime, is not under suspicion for anything, and no one else has alleged he has committed a crime.

There is clearly no probable cause in this instance.

So how do I write a report for him if I don't ask for his identifying information?

A witness to a crime would be another example. No probable cause exists in this instance that the individual committed a crime.

A police officer can ASK anyone for anything.

A police officer can only DEMAND or INSIST if there is some sort of probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

Thus an officer may certainly walk up to someone sitting on a park bench and ask for identification.

And that person is allowed to refuse to provide any unless the officer advises them that there are circumstances that compel the person to provide identification i.e. probable cause or reasonable suspicion, although there is NO requirement that the officer provide the substance of the probable cause except to the magistrate that will preside over the issue at hand.

Michael Brown
 

Michael Brown

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Remind me why citizens are obligated to provide name and DOB? Also, are there instances where a pure outright refusal to provide any info is warranted? Out of pure curiosity to your answer.

The nature of your question leads to to question its legitimacy given that you have stated that you are a lawyer and former LEO.

This would seem to be be pretty basic information to anyone who has written a traffic or criminal citation..............

Title 21 and 47.

In Tulsa, Municipal Codes 27 and 37 also correspond.

Title 47 provides specific information, including address, that a suspect in a traffic violation must provide in order to receive the courtesy of a citation in lieu of a physical arrest in the county of his/her residence. Failure to provide this information would result in a physical arrest.

The section on arrest warrants also outlines this information as it is required on any state or municipal warrant to be served in Oklahoma, however this is only important to the magistrate issuing the warrant in terms of its application to your question.

Outright refusal to provide information could certainly be warranted if an officer acknowledges that no probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or material witness information exists.

However an officer simply refusing to provide the substance of the above would not warrant refusal unless a citizen doesn't mind being arrested in order to know that information. I have only come across this scenario once in my time as a police officer.

Michael Brown
 

kcatto

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You either misunderstood your criminal justice professor or else he/she is unqualified to be teaching you, which would be suprising as most C.J. professors have some law enforcement experience.

For example, I get called to a house where a burglary has been committed. The owner says he has been burglarized. He has committed no crime, is not under suspicion for anything, and no one else has alleged he has committed a crime.

There is clearly no probable cause in this instance.

So how do I write a report for him if I don't ask for his identifying information?

A witness to a crime would be another example. No probable cause exists in this instance that the individual committed a crime.

A police officer can ASK anyone for anything.

A police officer can only DEMAND or INSIST if there is some sort of probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

Thus an officer may certainly walk up to someone sitting on a park bench and ask for identification.

And that person is allowed to refuse to provide any unless the officer advises them that there are circumstances that compel the person to provide identification i.e. probable cause or reasonable suspicion, although there is NO requirement that the officer provide the substance of the probable cause except to the magistrate that will preside over the issue at hand.

Michael Brown


Ok my instructor was:

Dr. DAN JOHNSON
Professor Police Science Program, OSU/OKC , Former CLEET Director for the State of Oklatoma , Former Chief Oklahoma State Park Rangers,

I re-read your post and corrected myself earlier....

you did say this was a subject in an investigation....
and you have a right to get the information needed from a person, When they call to make any complaint....

but here is my question?

If I am sitting on a bus bench waiting for a bus, you do not have the right to demand my information about anything about me as I have not done anything that would make you believe a crime has been committed, or probable cause??Is this correct??
You can ask my name like any other citizen has the right to conversation but not in an official police manner and I do not have to talk to you if I choose not to legally just like I do not have to talk to anyone I choose not to talk to???
Is this correct???
 

Michael Brown

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but here is my question?

If I am sitting on a bus bench waiting for a bus, you do not have the right to demand my information about anything about me as I have not done anything that would make you believe a crime has been committed, or probable cause??Is this correct??
You can ask my name like any other citizen has the right to conversation but not in an official police manner and I do not have to talk to you if I choose not to legally just like I do not have to talk to anyone I choose not to talk to???
Is this correct???

Yes. This is correct.

If you will read the post of mine that you quoted, you will find it says exactly that.

Michael Brown
 

MyMonkey

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The nature of your question leads to to question its legitimacy given that you have stated that you are a lawyer and former LEO.

This would seem to be be pretty basic information to anyone who has written a traffic or criminal citation..............

Title 21 and 47.

In Tulsa, Municipal Codes 27 and 37 also correspond.

Title 47 provides specific information, including address, that a suspect in a traffic violation must provide in order to receive the courtesy of a citation in lieu of a physical arrest in the county of his/her residence. Failure to provide this information would result in a physical arrest.

The section on arrest warrants also outlines this information as it is required on any state or municipal warrant to be served in Oklahoma, however this is only important to the magistrate issuing the warrant in terms of its application to your question.

Outright refusal to provide information could certainly be warranted if an officer acknowledges that no probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or material witness information exists.

However an officer simply refusing to provide the substance of the above would not warrant refusal unless a citizen doesn't mind being arrested in order to know that information. I have only come across this scenario once in my time as a police officer.

Michael Brown

:w000t: I just dig your replys honestly. Always so precise. However, I have found that many LEO are not quite as well read as you are. I generally only ask questions for which I assume I already know the answer. And, yes I am a Lawyer and former Popo. :hey3:
 

Michael Brown

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:w000t: I just dig your replys honestly. Always so precise. However, I have found that many LEO are not quite as well read as you are. I generally only ask questions for which I assume I already know the answer. And, yes I am a Lawyer and former Popo. :hey3:

Every once in a while an Ivy league education pays off.:rotflmao:

To quote Andy Bernard in "The Office":

"I went to Cornell. Ever heard of it?":rollingla

Michael Brown
 

ExSniper

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Anyway:we were returning home from the hospital yesterday and we(my wife was driving)were stopped by a trooper right on the Hwy69/412 exit in choteau/loves truck stop.Well she pulled over in the sonic paking lotbecause he lit her up while still on the loopy thing.and she couldn't stop right there in the merge lane(she did this on her own,without me rightside driving,I was napping)the trooper came to her window "DL and POI please Mam.."please step out of the truck and to my car please mam". . .

When she was getting out her DL and POI YOU should have notifed the officer of your CCW and weapon (during the course of any traffic stop, whether you are the driver or passenger), this would have saved a lot of confusion.
He did not open her door as then she would be sitting alone in his running vehicle where I am sure he had additional weapons while he walked around to the other side.
All of his conduct sounds quite professional.

Hope you are healing and feeling better.
 

gerhard1

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I have a question: when did OHP start having people to come and sit in their cruisers? Is this a fairly recent policy?
The reason that I ask is because I was pulled over and cited in Grant County about 15 years or so ago, and the trooper took care of business right at the window of my vehicle.
And yes; I did deserve the ticket.
 

ssgrock3

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When she was getting out her DL and POI YOU should have notifed the officer of your CCW and weapon (during the course of any traffic stop, whether you are the driver or passenger), this would have saved a lot of confusion.
.

passenger wasn't involved in officer interaction, why would you notify?

the driver could have responded a bit more accurately...IE: husband has his ccw, no drugs in the car.

You guys who make the big statements to the officers....why? handing your dl and permit to the officer is all that is needed.

I mean really.....officer, by law I am required...if you are being frisked for some reason, then maybe but keeping it simple has always made good sense to me. We have a right to ccw, lets not over complicate things.
 

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