Load development for the individual firearm, 6.5 Creedmoor

[cdschoonie]

My thread on ‘Annealing Straight Walled’, began to veer from the original question. Since I want to travel both paths I made this thread.

Since beginning reloading 2-3 years ago, I’ve learned a good deal, mostly the basics. Now that I’ve loaded and shot, in the 600 count range of hand loads, I need to take further baby steps into more advanced loading. For this purpose, I want to take those steps in my 6.5 Creedmoor.

First I’ll note the 2 - 6.5s I load for, I am still trying to dial in which powder, bullet, etc., on both, however my son’s is throwing a 1” 10rd group at 100 yards. For this, I loaded Starline, IMR 4350, Berger 140 gr. VLDs. With mine, the closest I’ve gotten is only 2.5” - 5rd group, Starline, IMR 4350, 129 gr., Nosler AB LR. I’m holding no credit with mine, since this was my first time setting up a NIB scope. So our 2 setups are:

Mine - Savage 10T-SR, 24”, heavy barrel, 1:8 twist.

My son's - Savage Axis II, 22”, 1:8 twist.

As to taking the next step, I’m thinking about several things. Brass brand, COL, shoulder bump, chamber size, annealing/not annealing, powders, primers, ogive, etc.. That said, and the ultimate goal being max accuracy, fps, consistency, getting the most loads (safely) out of each case, and so forth, I have these initial questions:

1) To anneal or not? If so, how often? Also if I do anneal, I’ve seen nearly even numbers of ambient vs water cooling, as it affects the life of a case, thoughts?

2) Measuring, is there any measurement more important than another (Case length to shoulder, overall case length, COL)?

3) I’ve read thread after thread, page after page, that measuring an individual rifle’s chamber length (base to lands, base to shoulder) is crucial for accuracy and repeatability. Since I will only load for these 2 rifles, I’m understanding that it will greatly help in accuracy and consistency. Thoughts?

4) Neck sizing vs Full length, will one fill my needs better than the other? I have 2 sets of 6.5 dies, Hornady Custom 2-die and RCBS 2-die. Do I need/want a neck sizer?

I’m sure I’ll come up with more questions, but these are good answer/conversation/debate starters. I’m looking for as many ideas/opinions as possible, I’m sure by what I’ve read on other forums, there will be a wealth of good info here as well.

 

[JEVapa]

1) To anneal or not? If so, how often? Also if I do anneal, I’ve seen nearly even numbers of ambient vs water cooling, as it affects the life of a case, thoughts?

I anneal after 5-6 loads depending on how hot they are. Maybe less, but it depends on what the brass starts to look like. When you anneal, it's not quite the same as steel, and some of our machinists/metallurgists can point out what the processes are.

Think of how a case is made and why it's made that way.
3 parts: Case head/base, body, and shoulder/neck. Case head needs to be thick, strong, tough, and can't deform - it never gets any heat. Body it less thick but still needs to be strong enough to contain the combustion of the powder without deforming or fracturing. The neck though, has to be soft to allow for repeated firings and manipulations in size/shape, along with the shoulder.

You don't want the high heat going way down into the body. You want it to stop just below the shoulder. If you heat up the neck and that heat moves down into the body and dissipates over time, which is what happens with ambient cooling, it's fairly probable you'll anneal the body. The water is what stops the heating process.
Heat the neck until it discolors just below the shoulder and dump it in water.

Take a look Lake City and Federal brass for the GOV or other factory ammo that's not polished and you see where the annealing stops.

There's a good write up somewhere on the net about all the who's, how's, and why's of annealing brass along with some methods. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[diggler1833]

1) I wouldn't worry about annealing until your second firing. From there you can anneal every time or every other time. Annealing will not prevent primer pockets from getting loose or case head separation...but it will prevent the necks from splitting. My experience with hotter 5.56 in Lake City brass has that happening on the third loading if not annealed.

2) Measuring your case length from base to shoulder *on a fired cartridge from that particular rifle* will determine how to set up your full length dies. I'm typically a .002 - .003 bump guy, but others may prefer a bump of only .001. Unless you're a benchrest shooter, it matters less. CBTO is good for determining the jump your particular bullet likes. CBTO is more consistent than COL/COAL (same thing, just depends on who is typing it) because you will almost always encounter a few thousandths difference in bullet overall length. Where I am most concerned with COL is in magazine clearance.

3) I use a Hornady OAL gauge to measure a particular bullet until it hits the lands. I personally shoot groups at .010, .040, .070, and .100" jump to see if there is a preference.

4) Full length or bushing.

 

[cdschoonie]

1) I wouldn't worry about annealing until your second firing. From there you can anneal every time or every other time. Annealing will not prevent primer pockets from getting loose or case head separation...but it will prevent the necks from splitting. My experience with hotter 5.56 in Lake City brass has that happening on the third loading if not annealed.

2) Measuring your case length from base to shoulder *on a fired cartridge from that particular rifle* will determine how to set up your full length dies. I'm typically a .002 - .003 bump guy, but others may prefer a bump of only .001. Unless you're a benchrest shooter, it matters less. CBTO is good for determining the jump your particular bullet likes. CBTO is more consistent than COL/COAL (same thing, just depends on who is typing it) because you will almost always encounter a few thousandths difference in bullet overall length. Where I am most concerned with COL is in magazine clearance.

3) I use a Hornady OAL gauge to measure a particular bullet until it hits the lands. I personally shoot groups at .010, .040, .070, and .100" jump to see if there is a preference.

4) Full length or bushing.

As I am still a noob in reloading, can I achieve bump back with full length resizing, or do I need a neck sizer?

 

[diggler1833]

As I am still a noob in reloading, can I achieve bump back with full length resizing, or do I need a neck sizer?

You'll do it when you screw your full length sizing die in with the shell holder in the ram at full stroke.

Most manuals I've had will say to screw the die in with the ram all the way up. Once your die hits the shell holder and stops, you lower the ram and screw the die 1/8 -1/4 turn more.

Less turn (closer to the 1/8) will bump your shoulder less.

It never hurts to make a witness mark, or take a measurement and record how far you screwed your die in after you lowered the ram to where your ideal shoulder bump is. Working the same piece of brass several times in the die will wear it out much faster (the case neck will harden, and the base will start to separate).

There are excellent dies that you can start investing in that will processes like these much more exact...

...That being said I'm not sure that its necessary for hunting or informal target shooting. Most of my dies are plain old RCBS or Redding (1 Forrester) and I'm using a plain old RCBS Rock Checker press. I don't think I have one modern centerfire rifle that shoots worse than MOA, and several that are half that.

There are many steps that just need consistency and attention to detail.

 

[cdschoonie]

I’m learning a lot about how a big part of accuracy, consistency, and tighter groups can have a great deal to do with seating. I understand that for hunting and casual paper shooting, a 1.5”, even a 2” group at 100 yards is pretty lethal. In comes my OCD, that paired with being raised to live by the code, “Any job worth doing, is worth doing it perfectly.”. My preference is to learn as in depth as possible. I’m starting to think ahead, although I’m just learning the hobby, I will soon be delving deeper into fine-tuning. So I’m gonna have to invest at least a little more on dies.
With my 6.5 CM, I want to be able to (eventually) go to the range and hit a nail head at 100 yards, if I feel like it. With that thought in mind, if I don’t buy a full set, I’m thinking I’ll at the very least, need a good seating die. I have a plain Jane Hornady custom 2-die, and an RCBS 2-die. I was looking at the Microjust dial to put on my Hornady seater. Adding to that, their seating stems for Polymer tips, to which they are bullet specific. This is cool and all, but then $40 for the Microjust, $15 each for the stems, I’m looking currently at Hornady ELD-X and SST. I’ve yet to find one for the SST, but I have an email into them to see if maybe one of the stems will work. If I have to buy 2 stems, I’m up to $70 but still a plain Jane die.
I was looking at the Forster Micrometer seating die for a Benjamin. After reading reviews and watching videos, these guys are saying, or rather I’m understanding them to say, the Forster’s seating stem fits these bullets just as well or better than Hornady’s. Add to that the fact that the Forster sleeves holds the entire case, whereas Hornady only holds the neck.
I know, I went a long way to ask 3 questions…

1) Is the Forster worth the extra $45, possibly only $30 more?
2) You guy’s who use the Forster, first are they as good as the raving? Also, hopefully some of you with the Forster have seated different Hornady or even just different Polymer tipped, if you have, does the stem fit multiple bullets snug?
3) I feel like I can get away with just the Forster seater, since I have a Hornady and an RCBS FL Sizer?

 

[thor447]

I use a Redding Micrometer seating die. If you get their VLD stem, it will have zero issues with ELD-X bullets. I haven't tried any SST's, but the Redding VLD stem/die works great on the ELD's, Sierra Match Kings, Noslers, and a few others I have tried. Neck tension will also play a major role. Consistency is king, and I've found a .002 neck tension to be ideal in my 6.5 loads. Bushing dies work well, The Redding Type S is pretty much the standard to which all others are compared, and most fall short. That being said, since I do not neck turn my brass, and a bushing die sizes the neck from the outside, if your brass is not perfectly concentric, your neck tension may still be off. I have since added an extra step, and after full length sizing / shoulder bumping .002 with the Redding Type S die, I use a Wilson expander mandrel (0.262) on the necks. This sets neck tension perfectly by sizing the neck from the inside of the case, and man it was noticeable at the range!

All of this, the tips and techniques are great, and it is a rabbit hole for sure. It is all for nothing if you don't start out with good brass. Winchester, Hornady, etc. all shoot well, and are perfectly adequate for hunting, general shooting, etc. Get you a box of Lapua brass to start with, and you can use the exact same process and will find better and more consistent results.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jcann]

I would drop the starline brass and start loading this brass, Peterson 6.5 Creedmoor Casing Box of 50 - small primer PCC65CSP
Ive heard tell the small rifle primer has helped some with lowering their ES/SD although a lower ES/SD at 100 yards doesnt make a tinkers damn bit of difference with regards to accuracy.

Peterson brass in my opinion is every bit as good as Lapua. I load it in my Rem 260. I wouldn’t get too wrapped around the axel about a press. I currently use both a Lee and RCBS single stage and achieve outstanding accuracy with my reloads. Consistency, tested components, proper shooting mechanics, along with a good barrel, quality trigger, and proper stock play as much if not more than a reloading press.

 

[Jcann]

This was a write up I made several years ago. I still shoot this rifle and it still produces <1/2moa accuracy at 100 yards. I routinely take it out to 945 yards with excellent results and to 1500 yards with very good results.

https://www.okshooters.com/threads/case-preping-for-match-ammo.260849/

 

[diggler1833]

This was a write up I made several years ago. I still shoot this rifle and it still produces <1/2moa accuracy at 100 yards. I routinely take it out to 945 yards with excellent results and to 1500 yards with very good results.

https://www.okshooters.com/threads/case-preping-for-match-ammo.260849/

Pretty solid work you did there. Good job.