Need help with a Winchester 74

[SPDguns]

Thanks for the response. I'll take it apart again and soak it overnight this time.

I struck out on the springs. Still digging on the other parts.....

 

[Ahall]

Old 22 autos - Dirt and crud are the most common issues - cheep dirty ammo and lots of it get fed to 22's. So a good cleaning and inspection of the parts is usually the first step.

Second step, get a good parts diagram and be sure everything is present and goes back in the right way. 22 autos are notorious for being disassembled by well-meaning folks who can't get them back together correctly or lose parts all together.

Do your diagnostics on clean parts you know are correctly assembled, then figure out what has to be done. Don't guess or assume the YouTube answer is the only possible answer.

Because of the age, ware is a potential issue - and may be apparent upon close inspection.
You seem to be having problems with the firing group, and it's a semi-auto. If you think it needs adjustment, and even question if its within your skills, take it to a smith. The fit on the some of those parts is touchy. You don't want to inadvertently create a full auto or have a mag dump you can't control. You may also have case hardened parts that will ware quickly if you take off the hardened layer stoning them back to shape.

The fact that shimming the pin corrected the malfunction indicates ware or crud is probably the issue. After everything is clean, measure the pin and hole with a set of calipers. If either are out of round, thats a good indication of worn parts, and how much they are worn.

If the fit with the pin hole is bad, a shim or bushing is probably better than welding either part. Green locktite is a common choice for mounting the shim in the receiver.

When you get to the point your ready to test fire it, follow the rule for test firing semi autos - 1 round in the clip, then 2, then 3, then a full clip. The idea is if you get a burst, rather than semi auto you don't have a lot off rounds to control. Sure it's a 22, but get in the habit anyway with all new to you guns or just repaired guns. If you have a large bore handgun run away with a full high-capacity clip you might not live to talk about it.

 

[Bocephus123]

Wear is my guess without looking. old guns have been shot a million times!

 

[Catt57]

Old 22 autos - Dirt and crud are the most common issues - cheep dirty ammo and lots of it get fed to 22's. So a good cleaning and inspection of the parts is usually the first step.

Second step, get a good parts diagram and be sure everything is present and goes back in the right way. 22 autos are notorious for being disassembled by well-meaning folks who can't get them back together correctly or lose parts all together.

Do your diagnostics on clean parts you know are correctly assembled, then figure out what has to be done. Don't guess or assume the YouTube answer is the only possible answer.

Because of the age, ware is a potential issue - and may be apparent upon close inspection.
You seem to be having problems with the firing group, and it's a semi-auto. If you think it needs adjustment, and even question if its within your skills, take it to a smith. The fit on the some of those parts is touchy. You don't want to inadvertently create a full auto or have a mag dump you can't control. You may also have case hardened parts that will ware quickly if you take off the hardened layer stoning them back to shape.

The fact that shimming the pin corrected the malfunction indicates ware or crud is probably the issue. After everything is clean, measure the pin and hole with a set of calipers. If either are out of round, thats a good indication of worn parts, and how much they are worn.

If the fit with the pin hole is bad, a shim or bushing is probably better than welding either part. Green locktite is a common choice for mounting the shim in the receiver.

When you get to the point your ready to test fire it, follow the rule for test firing semi autos - 1 round in the clip, then 2, then 3, then a full clip. The idea is if you get a burst, rather than semi auto you don't have a lot off rounds to control. Sure it's a 22, but get in the habit anyway with all new to you guns or just repaired guns. If you have a large bore handgun run away with a full high-capacity clip you might not live to talk about it.

Good advice.


I always test fire new-to-me firearms with only 2-3 rounds loaded the first 3 times I shoot them for that reason. You just never know....
They also get a good cleaning and inspection beforehand as well.

I have a parts diagram, between that and the Youtube videos, it appears to be correctly assembled.

I did a heavy cleaning (out of necessity), but when I get the chance, I'm going to take the bolt apart again and soak it overnight then see where that gets me.

 

[Catt57]

Had a chance to mess with this some more.

I figured out a little more of what is happening.
Basically, If the trigger is pressed, and the receiver cap is allowed to move back that extra millimeter, the firing pin does not get "captured" to cock the action.
If either the trigger is not pressed, OR the receiver cap is pressed forward, than it catches and works correctly.

So it's the combination of trigger pressed and receiver cap movement that causes it to fail.

I am also able to replicate this behavior with the action in and out of the stock. (When out of the stock, just pressing the sear release by hand.)

 

[Bocephus123]

Had a chance to mess with this some more.

I figured out a little more of what is happening.
Basically, If the trigger is pressed, and the receiver cap is allowed to move back that extra millimeter, the firing pin does not get "captured" to cock the action.
If either the trigger is not pressed, OR the receiver cap is pressed forward, than it catches and works correctly.

So it's the combination of trigger pressed and receiver cap movement that causes it to fail.

I am also able to replicate this behavior with the action in and out of the stock. (When out of the stock, just pressing the sear release by hand.)

Sounds like you’re gaining on it

 

[Ahall]

Had a chance to mess with this some more.

I figured out a little more of what is happening.
Basically, If the trigger is pressed, and the receiver cap is allowed to move back that extra millimeter, the firing pin does not get "captured" to cock the action.
If either the trigger is not pressed, OR the receiver cap is pressed forward, than it catches and works correctly.

So it's the combination of trigger pressed and receiver cap movement that causes it to fail.

I am also able to replicate this behavior with the action in and out of the stock. (When out of the stock, just pressing the sear release by hand.)

Interesting.
The gun does not cock on the second shot, but first round is ok.

When you work the bolt the first time, it cocks, and the cocking lever is on the right side of the bolt, so you probably cock it with your trigger hand.

Then you pull the trigger and it cycles, but does not cock.
1) does the bolt travel far enough to fully cock the gun? This could be dirt/grim, but that seems to be ruled out.

2) Is the disconnector doing its job - a semi auto should have a device that allows the firing system to reset with the trigger pulled. Your gun is striker fired, so the striker is not being held back when the gun cycles with the trigger pulled. Loose fit could result in too much movement and the striker not catching, or a small misalignment in the disconnector preventing it from doing its job.

From the videos it looks like the gun is wood stocked and the trigger assembly is not mounted to the receiver.

Years ago I worked on a single trigger LC Smith shotgun that had trigger problems. Over tightening the stock bolt behind the trigger set pulled it up just far enough to change the sear engagement. Ware and stock shrinkage were also factors.

If the trigger and disconnector are in the stock, shrinkage and ware in the stock can change the alignment of the components and cause malfunctions. Play with the tension on the bolt that mounts the stock and see if it changes anything. A few paper shims under the receiver may also be useful for diagnosing the problem

One other thought - most of these old 22s are mounted to the stock with a screw that has a round bottomed slot. Those were designed to use a standard US coin as a screwdriver for disassembly (I have a few screw driver bits with coins brazed to them for this application). The thing is the gun was designed for a kid or young adult and they can't get that screw very tight with a loose nickel. Overtightening should be on the list of things to check with this gun.

 

[Catt57]

Interesting.
The gun does not cock on the second shot, but first round is ok.

When you work the bolt the first time, it cocks, and the cocking lever is on the right side of the bolt, so you probably cock it with your trigger hand.

Then you pull the trigger and it cycles, but does not cock.
1) does the bolt travel far enough to fully cock the gun? This could be dirt/grim, but that seems to be ruled out.

2) Is the disconnector doing its job - a semi auto should have a device that allows the firing system to reset with the trigger pulled. Your gun is striker fired, so the striker is not being held back when the gun cycles with the trigger pulled. Loose fit could result in too much movement and the striker not catching, or a small misalignment in the disconnector preventing it from doing its job.

From the videos it looks like the gun is wood stocked and the trigger assembly is not mounted to the receiver.

Years ago I worked on a single trigger LC Smith shotgun that had trigger problems. Over tightening the stock bolt behind the trigger set pulled it up just far enough to change the sear engagement. Ware and stock shrinkage were also factors.

If the trigger and disconnector are in the stock, shrinkage and ware in the stock can change the alignment of the components and cause malfunctions. Play with the tension on the bolt that mounts the stock and see if it changes anything. A few paper shims under the receiver may also be useful for diagnosing the problem

One other thought - most of these old 22s are mounted to the stock with a screw that has a round bottomed slot. Those were designed to use a standard US coin as a screwdriver for disassembly (I have a few screw driver bits with coins brazed to them for this application). The thing is the gun was designed for a kid or young adult and they can't get that screw very tight with a loose nickel. Overtightening should be on the list of things to check with this gun.

Might be something to this. The stock screw has been over-tightened so often that the screw and bushing have sunk over 3/8" into the stock.

I already planned to plug the hole, drill a new one, and reset the screw bushing back to flush.

 

[HiredHand]

Since the trigger mechanism is part of the stock, the relationship between the stock and receiver/bolt group is critical.

 

[Bocephus123]

Since the trigger mechanism is part of the stock, the relationship between the stock and receiver/bolt group is critical.

Have never see one like that makes since