Proposed ATF 4473 Change Includes Three Gender Choices

BobbyV

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Under the current guidelines, a transferee must answer either male or female (but not both, nor can they leave the question blank). The FFL cannot question their choice, but he/she can record whatever info they deem relevant to the transaction on Line 31. This kind of scenario is what the proposed change(s) are intended to address.

Not sure what this is addressing . . . my point was that when we submit the request in the NICs system the last step is to verify the license/ID information. If the transferee is listed as male on their license and selects female or whatever the other option(s) might be on the 4473 and it doesn't match the ID what then?
 

BobbyV

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Not to hijack the thread, but do you have any info from your distributors on the new Python? I've already seen them on one website listed at MSRP... do you think they will eventually sell for any below that?

Have you seen the new Ruger 5.7x28mm? I'm on the wait list for one . . .
 

harley128

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Not sure what this is addressing . . . my point was that when we submit the request in the NICs system the last step is to verify the license/ID information. If the transferee is listed as male on their license and selects female or whatever the other option(s) might be on the 4473 and it doesn't match the ID what then?
I see what you're saying..........Hmmm, haven't thought that one through....... I mainly use the license to match up the photo ID, and to verify it hasn't expired, and to check matching address............... but you're right, sex is definitely on there..... I guess they could've been a male when they got their drivers license, and then turned female before buying the gun ............

Holy cow! That could cause quite an interesting discussion at the gun counter!
 

BobbyV

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I see what you're saying..........Hmmm, haven't thought that one through....... I mainly use the license to match up the photo ID, and to verify it hasn't expired, and to check matching address............... but you're right, sex is definitely on there..... I guess they could've been a male when they got their drivers license, and then turned female before buying the gun ............

Yep. Especially with all the fuss about completing the 4473 correctly and accurately.

Holy cow! That could cause quite an interesting discussion at the gun counter!

Very true. :ooh2:
 

Snattlerake

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Yep. Especially with all the fuss about completing the 4473 correctly and accurately.



Very true. :ooh2:
As I see it the OP states we, or someone, can return feedback to these proposed changes. This has not been decided yet. Has ANYONE told them their opinions?
 

mightymouse

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Not sure what this is addressing . . . my point was that when we submit the request in the NICs system the last step is to verify the license/ID information. If the transferee is listed as male on their license and selects female or whatever the other option(s) might be on the 4473 and it doesn't match the ID what then?
Okay, as said before, the transferee must answer either "male" or "female", but not both, nor can they leave the question blank, nor can they make up an answer (such as an "X" or something similar). Nothing other than "male" or "female" is currently acceptable. (Anything other than a "male" or "female" answer disqualifies the transferee, just as it would if someone checks "yes" on the question about felony convictions.)

The thing to keep in mind is that the FFL cannot "guide" the transferee in any way concerning these questions; he/she can only refer said transferee to the instructions for the relevant question(s). Thus, if the "non-binary" transferee checks both boxes on the current form, or does not check either box, the transaction is over, just as if a convicted felon checks the appropriate "yes" box for felonies. The FFL need not explain the whys and wherefores, and can refer the disappointed transferee to the ATF for further guidance.

Now, as to your question, currently you can make a note on Line 31 if you don't believe that the transferee has accurately represented his or her sex, but you are not allowed to voice your opinions/concerns to the transferee, nor, IMO, does NICS wish to know. Examine the ID, make your own notes on Line 31 about your own observations/concerns, but let NICS take care of the rest.

The proposed changes, as I understand them, render all of this moot. The transferee can answer "Non-Binary", and he/she may even have a Driver's License from a state that issues non-binary D/Ls (to be used in the transfer of a long gun, say). In any event, there is no "wrong" answer that would signal the end of the transaction, unlike what we have seen in the example above. Regarding the "non-binary" then, their self-identity is not to be challenged by the FFL. Again, there is a line on the form for FFLs to make notes about their concerns and observations. Make those notes and let NICS make the final decision on the proposed transfer. We can do our best to verify a potential transferee's I.D., but in the end, we are not unilaterally empowered to decide someone else's sexual identity.
 
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Snattlerake

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Amazon gets it.
twogenders.jpeg
 

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