Question for someone who know OK self defense law.

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SMS

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So basically if you own a business you should just let it be destroyed. Because heaven forbid you try and protect YOUR property. Picture if they tried to burn down Scwaab meat company. It’s been it that building for like 100 years. Oklahoma needs a law that clearly states you can use deadly force to protect property. Because I can guarantee this crap will spread everywhere.

I believe that what people were trying to say is that if the OP was looking for a clear cut definition of when it is ok to shoot someone and when it's not, he's not going to find one. The law allows for self defense, but the responding officers, the D.A., the judge and the jury might have different interpretations.

You don't need a law specifically to authorize deadly force to protect property...deadly force is already allowed for to protect yourself. If you are threatened during the course of lawfully occupying your property then you would be able to argue self-defense.

The law will NEVER be written to say if person A does X then person B can kill them.
 

SMS

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I think the bottom line will come down to the fact he was a 17 y/o armed and open carrying. In OK, that is illegal and he wouldn't be able to mount an affirmative defense predicated on his right to be where he was. He was already committing a felony, and I think he's going to get long hard time.

That's been my take on it. Despite all the hero memes and the way he handled himself under pressure, it comes down to what you said.

In order to argue self-defense, you yourself must be acting lawfully at the time. As far as I've ever seen anyway.
 

John6185

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At 17 years old he is a minor unless they try him as an adult. One thing that might be in his favor if the citizens sit on the jury, they don't appreciate what has gone on in their streets and they could find that he acted in fear and self defense. Had he been overtaken while on the ground, they would have either shot him or beaten him to death. He was in over his head regardless.
 

tRidiot

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At 17 years old he is a minor unless they try him as an adult. One thing that might be in his favor if the citizens sit on the jury, they don't appreciate what has gone on in their streets and they could find that he acted in fear and self defense. Had he been overtaken while on the ground, they would have either shot him or beaten him to death. He was in over his head regardless.

That he was... it was all pretty chaotic, for sure. I feel for the kid, even if he was dumb to be there as he was in the first place. Looks like the charges filed on the unlawful possession are misdemeanor, though. They sure piled on everything they could, though.

It's gonna be ugly for that poor kid.
 

Mad Professor

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He traveled from another state into a known area of rioting,


I kept seeing this brought up so I did a bit of research.
He lives in Antioch, IL which is only about 19 miles from Kenosha, WI.

I’m not defending going to a hot spot, but both cities appear to be almost adjacent if not part of a large metroplex.


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Truckdriver

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I kept seeing this brought up so I did a bit of research.
He lives in Antioch, IL which is only about 19 miles from Kenosha, WI.

I’m not defending going to a hot spot, but both cities appear to be almost adjacent if not part of a large metroplex.


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The only reason I mentioned crossing state lines is to show the comparison between this kids action and the AntiFa shipping in troublemakers from other states when the rioting first started. Murders were committed by these troublemakers but minimal action taken against them. Then you get a "local" from nearby BUT from the state next door, and he is the bad guy for defending himself against these violent offenders. Just noting the hypocrisy of the whole situation.
 

HeyEng

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HeyEng is right in one way here for sure. I had a co-worker at the OSBI that was called for jury duty. When they went in for deliberations, the other jurors had NO IDEA that possession of drugs with intent to distribute was a "higher charge" than simple possession. She was shocked to see how ignorant the "peers" were as to what laws had higher sentence possibilities.

Often folks will ask me to "generally" explain the law. 90% of the time that's difficult to do because it's written by a bunch of idiots that is changed/watered down/changed again and passed back and forth between both houses of Congress and several committees before it's passed. And then, there are lawsuits that challenge or question the law and then case law is created by activist judges that is either upheld or remanded back to the lower courts by an activist appellate court. So, even the "clearest" of the laws aren't so clear when it comes to YOUR CASE...which often is novel and hasn't been addressed by the court before. And if you guessed that this can cause problems for you, then you win a prize from the state fair. But, you can't redeem it this year. Sorry. :)

Instead, I direct them to the uniform jury instructions. I could ramble for hours about this, but it's the clearest way to explain law to a layman that I have found and it's quite useful even for attorneys. A lot of folks in the practice of law get wrapped up in what THEY think is right and lose sight of the entire fact pattern and that is a recipe for disaster. If they instead look at a case through the eyes of the jury...it can help...a little. Anyway, here is a link to Oklahoma's jury instructions. It can be quite enlightening.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/index.asp?ftdb=STOKJU&level=1

-edit: He will have no issue finding a very, VERY good team of attorneys. The best ones out there salivate over cases like this. However, don't think that might be YOUR case and personally, I don't want to face a jury FOR ANYTHING..even if I had OJ's "dream team"...it's still way, WAY too risky.
 

Glocktogo

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Our DA here in Tulsa, Steve Kunzweiler stated a couple months ago about anyone using deadly force to defend themselves in a vehicle, would be judged on a caseby case basis. Then we were all advised not to knowingly drive into protest, riots, roadblocks if any other route was open to us. the message to me was, you will be judged by twelve. and gleefully be lied about, misrepresented by all media outlets.

I consider Kunzweiler a loose cannon and potential threat to armed citizens acting within the law in self-defense. He's made some right calls and some wrong ones. If there's political pressure, I'd err on the side of caution and assume he'll make the wrong call.

However, anything I'd do in Tulsa Co. would be my advice for anywhere else as well. I want any potential juror to NOT see me as the aggressor in any part of an incident. I'd want them to see me as someone who could be them in similar circumstances.
 

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