Sage Dynamics Red Dot study

[Snattlerake]

An RDS on a pistol has gained a lot of momentum in the last year or so. Within the last year, I sent a proposal to my PD about having them purchase 3 G17 MOS platforms and optics for the instructors to T&E for a year and got it approved. Listed below are what we purchased for T&E.

-3 Glock 17 gen 5 MOS
-3 CHPWS plates
-3 Safariland RDS holsters
-1 Trijicon RMR type 2 3.25moa
-1 Trijicon RMR type 2 6.5moa
-1 Holosun 507c V2

Initially it was difficult finding the dot due to the thousands upon thousands of reps of finding your sights during presentation. I had to ingrain in my head "Target/threat focus" to start picking up the red dot faster. You also need to think about bringing the rear slide plate to your nose instead of sights inline with your eyes. Your body will automatically, and with some practice, pick up the dot as it comes into view during your presentation. I also noticed that the times that I did not find my dot, my support hand grip was not.. fundamentally sound; locked out, strong grip, etc. When I fixed those two, the dot was there 95% of the time.

Zeroing is simple as I used Sage Dynamics technique and was able to do it in 20 rounds and maintain a 2-2.5" group at 25 yards. Running a qual was easy and felt like cheating. Shooting fast and maintaining solid hits was easy. From the holster, with a few reps, it became easy. Still not as fast as I was with iron sights, but a consistent 1.25-5 second draw and hit, 7 yards at the CLEET head scoring ring is very simply to do from a triple retention SLS/ALS holster.

The biggest learning curve for red dots is to threat/target focus and support hand grip. When those two are achieved, it is very hard to beat. Red dots are the wave of the future for both civilian and mil/leo world. When you're in a shooting, you're almost 100% likely to be target/threat focused anyways and the red dot will help make shots easier. The data is there and supports it.

Now to quality of optics. The RMR is a beast, but has parallax issues and is not a true 1x, though there have been very few that I've looked through that are. The RMR has a bluish tint to it, but like anything else, the more you shoot it the less you notice it. To change the battery on the RMR, the optic has to be taken off. In theory, zero should return, but always verify it. We will probably change it out every year during our qualification week and verify zero then.

The Holosun glass is clear and MUCH better than the RMR. The dot IMO is much crisper and less of a blob, but the dot alone also is a 2moa. The dot/circle and circle only are huge and bothersome for me, but I can see it being beneficial to new shooters. The V2 has a side battery tray, so you no longer need to take the optic off to change the battery. Because they did that, they also lost the ability to run a bigger battery. The Holosun does have a long battery life and the solar.

I personally bought a Holosun 508T V2 and got it a week and a half ago from Holosun. The optic itself is essentially the 507c but with a square face and titanium body. It has all the same features, just a better built optic. Glass is clear and optic isn't as big as the 507/508 v1's. So far, my initial thoughts is it is a much better optic than the 507c. I will not tell you my prices on both, but for the little extra cost, it would be dumb to not just get a 508T V2. I'm in line for a 509, so I look forward to that too.

Overall, I think that the learning curve for an optic is easier than that of iron sights, simply because of having only one focal plane. An optic is NOT going to make you a better shooter, though I believe it can make you a better shooter faster.

My PD does mandatory monthly range and we will be allowing our guys/gals to shoot our guns, different optics and MOA to see how they like it. Us three are using them on duty now to test durability.

Nice article. What is your policy on maintenance of the sight? I can see the sight getting filthy inside a holster, especially after rolling on the ground with someone. What about scratching the glass? Just wondering about real world scenarios.

 

[O4L]

What makes the MOS plates garbage? I was just looking at a G40 MOS yesterday. I see the CHPWS plates eliminate the gap from the slide to the optic?

The MOS plate is like a pressed metal. Not all plates sit flush with the gun and they don’t give enough material for threads for the optics. There are many many reports of them breaking, stripping, and optics falling off because of the MOS plates. Poorly designed.

I’m not saying they won’t work for you, but for a duty or ccw standpoint, I’ll pay the extra $50-60 to be sure my optic stays on, zeroed, and functional.

The G34 MOS I had didn't want to let the screws stay tight, so I'm thinking ef9 is correct. I noticed that they are really thin even for the fine thread they have when I reset mine with locktite. Traded it off with a couple extra screws shortly after so IDK if it was "really fixed" or not. Also the screw length is critical, if it tightens up on the slide from being too long instead of the plate threads you still have a loose sight.

The factory plates have so many drilled holes that it weakens the plates. They are thick, so when attached to the slide, offer very little threads to get set. Then the screws provided for the optic cause the same issues. You MIGHT get lucky to get 3 threads on, and if you torque to spec, it's almost guaranteed to strip the screws.

When the screws back out, the plates have play between the slide and plate, causing it to flex, then break or fall off. The CHPWS plates are thinner, have LOTS of material to set properly into the slide. They also have studs that set the optic in place and provide plenty of thread to set the optic in place. Thread count to the slide and optic is probably 8-10 by memory.

I have not had any issues with it. I also know that many large agencies that do run RDS are either milled or run an MOS with the CHPWS plates after extensive testing.

There is a thread on the fixes for the issues with the MOS plates on Pistol Forum.

I will see if I can find it and post a link.

Of course many just go with a milled slide but that isn't always the best option for everyone.

EDIT: Here is the thread at pistol-forum.com.

(I have not yet read the entire thread.)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)

 

[ef9turbo]

Nice article. What is your policy on maintenance of the sight? I can see the sight getting filthy inside a holster, especially after rolling on the ground with someone. What about scratching the glass? Just wondering about real world scenarios.

Right now it's solely on us. It's maintenance... Simple as that, I have to keep my guns clean, I press check before work, test all my equipment, clean the RDS if it needs it.

In real world scenarios, if I scratched my glass, it was probably a bad day and a scratch is the last thing I'd worry about. The holster for the RDS has a little hood that "protects" it from getting banged up, lots of rain on, etc. It works pretty well.

 

[ef9turbo]

There is a thread on the fixes for the issues with the MOS plates on Pistol Forum.

I will see if I can find it and post a link.

Of course many just go with a milled slide but that isn't always the best option for everyone.

EDIT: Here is the thread at pistol-forum.com.

(I have not yet read the entire thread.)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)

I've tinkered with the thought of just using the MOS plates, but there are far far too many documented issues with them. I'd rather just pay the extra $50 and not worry about it... I understand that's not an option for everyone and that the MOS plates work for others, I just wouldn't trust it, knowing that in the back of my head, there is always that chance. Yeah, I know, there is always that chance that my plate will malf, but I cannot find one single negative documented thing about it and having been tested by numerous PD's and being approved, I'll go that route.

That is a neat article for others though! Thanks for the share.

 

[O4L]

I've tinkered with the thought of just using the MOS plates, but there are far far too many documented issues with them. I'd rather just pay the extra $50 and not worry about it... I understand that's not an option for everyone and that the MOS plates work for others, I just wouldn't trust it, knowing that in the back of my head, there is always that chance. Yeah, I know, there is always that chance that my plate will malf, but I cannot find one single negative documented thing about it and having been tested by numerous PD's and being approved, I'll go that route.

That is a neat article for others though! Thanks for the share.

Just trying to help.

Gotta link for the plates you're using for those that are interested?

 

[Snattlerake]

BTW, I like Pho too.

 

[ef9turbo]

Just trying to help.

Gotta link for the plates you're using for those that are interested?

It’s good info for those who want to run the MOS plates, so thank you.

We run the version 3. This is the 4.

http://chpws.com/product/v4-mil-leo...un-407c-407c-v2-507c-507c-v2-508t-and-508t-v2

And Snattlerake, I LOVE pho!

 

[JD8]

Man, so much for trying to find a Holosun LOL..... fawkin Covid.

 

[YetiSam]

Man, so much for trying to find a Holosun LOL..... fawkin Covid.

507c V2 in stock on Amazon. They seem to ship out of Tulsa and show up in a day or so (at least the last couple I've ordered).

 

[StitchJones]

Fantastic thread!!

I'm really interested in the Holosun (mainly for the activation). I have three Glocks that wear Trigicon rmrs.