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The Water Cooler
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Sanders asked to leave restaurant
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<blockquote data-quote="Dave70968" data-source="post: 3129040" data-attributes="member: 13624"><p>"Some new energy source" is not even remotely the same as "disrupt[ing] the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen without spending an equal amount of energy to do so." See <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics</a>, and focus on the words "closed system." Yes, you can use a new energy source--or even an old one--to add energy to the system and break the bonds, but the H-O bond has a fixed amount of energy in it, and it will always take that delta to break. Catalysts may reduce the activation energy, lowering the "hump" you have to surmount to break the bond, but the excess between the bond and free-state will be re-emitted.</p><p></p><p>Thermodynamics doesn't lie. Catalysts improve efficiency, but you still have to put in the energy to break the bond, and you'll still get that much back out when you burn (or otherwise consume) the hydrogen. Minus the losses, of course--that's the second law of thermodynamics.</p><p></p><p>Put briefly, the three laws are:</p><p>1: You can't win.</p><p>2: You can't break even.</p><p>3: You'll keep going until you get to zero.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dave70968, post: 3129040, member: 13624"] "Some new energy source" is not even remotely the same as "disrupt[ing] the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen without spending an equal amount of energy to do so." See [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics[/URL], and focus on the words "closed system." Yes, you can use a new energy source--or even an old one--to add energy to the system and break the bonds, but the H-O bond has a fixed amount of energy in it, and it will always take that delta to break. Catalysts may reduce the activation energy, lowering the "hump" you have to surmount to break the bond, but the excess between the bond and free-state will be re-emitted. Thermodynamics doesn't lie. Catalysts improve efficiency, but you still have to put in the energy to break the bond, and you'll still get that much back out when you burn (or otherwise consume) the hydrogen. Minus the losses, of course--that's the second law of thermodynamics. Put briefly, the three laws are: 1: You can't win. 2: You can't break even. 3: You'll keep going until you get to zero. [/QUOTE]
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