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SBR or SBS??

Discussion in 'NFA & Class III Discussion' started by gillman7, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. WhiteyMacD

    WhiteyMacD Sharpshooter

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    Lot of arm chair ATF agent/lawyers here.

    The point of me being interested is the fact the lower doesnt have a bore. On an AR, the lower is what is registered. From my understanding, if a lower was stamped under a certain cal it does not mean you cannot use uppers of other calibers.

    You guys are making an assumption based on what you are reading. I want to know from someone who knows, clear cut.

    What about the opposite. SBS registered shotgun, you put a sawed off rifled slug barrel on it? So your saying thats illegal unless I register it as a SBR as well?

    :?
     
  2. tyromeo55

    tyromeo55 Sharpshooter

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    Well, If your not going to take Dustin's answer (which I think is correct) then you going to have to break out the pad and paper and ask the ATF. When you find out please post here. =)
     
  3. WhiteyMacD

    WhiteyMacD Sharpshooter

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    Doesnt matter THAT much to me.

    But if someone wants to know, I wouldnt base my decision exclusively on the opinions/interpretations of OSA members. ;)
     
  4. tyromeo55

    tyromeo55 Sharpshooter

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    this is one of the smartest posts I've seen in a while. Is is hard to believe that someone would make such big decisions without doing a little research of their own.. I've looked my NFA book over and can not recall a direct answer to this question. A ruleing would be nice but seeing that I sold my home and don't even know where I'll live after I close. and I have no desire to own a 410 AR I'll wait to draft a letter.
     
  5. WhiteyMacD

    WhiteyMacD Sharpshooter

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    LOL, understood.

    Im not trying to be difficult. But the topic is interesting. Granted, I am looking at it from the reverse.

    Say you have a .410 shotgun, you slap a rifled barrel (not that I have ever seen a rifled .410 barrel) on it. By using the same logic propsed in this thread, it should be legal to have a 16" barrel (note, this would not be a destructive device as NFA states DD only applies to barrels .50 in bore). However, if you read the NFA it could be interpreted that the firearm started as a shotgun so would be subject to the 18" rule (which I think is why you dont find < 18" barrels on a .410 (You would think with the rounds available in .410 that have recently coming out for HD, you would see a manufacturer release a .410ga rifled barrel firearm in a 16 - 18" barrel if the rifled truely negates the smooth bore property of being a shotgun).

    Now, with all I have said. I am not saying its legal to do this, nor is it legal for a sub 18" AR upper chambered in .410 on a SBR'd lower. I am saying, none of us work for the ATF or are practicing lawyers who specialize in NFA law (and even if we did, I doubt there has been a case to set precedence). If someone is truely interested, ask the powers that be.

    Now, Im not really interested in a .410 upper and my only interest in the subject is theoretical. Who knows, if I get bored, I might just write the letter to find out.

    ;)
     
  6. WhiteyMacD

    WhiteyMacD Sharpshooter

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    LOL, understood.

    Im not trying to be difficult. But the topic is interesting. Granted, I am looking at it from the reverse.

    Say you have a .410 shotgun, you slap a rifled barrel (not that I have ever seen a rifled .410 barrel) on it. By using the same logic propsed in this thread, it should be legal to have a 16" barrel (note, this would not be a destructive device as NFA states DD only applies to barrels .50 in bore). However, if you read the NFA it could be interpreted that the firearm started as a shotgun so would be subject to the 18" rule (which I think is why you dont find < 18" barrels on a .410 (You would think with the rounds available in .410 that have recently coming out for HD, you would see a manufacturer release a .410ga rifled barrel firearm in a 16 - 18" barrel if the rifled truely negates the smooth bore property of being a shotgun).

    Now, with all I have said. I am not saying its legal to do this, nor is it legal for a sub 18" AR upper chambered in .410 on a SBR'd lower. I am saying, none of us work for the ATF or are practicing lawyers who specialize in NFA law (and even if we did, I doubt there has been a case to set precedence). If someone is truely interested, ask the powers that be.

    Now, Im not really interested in a .410 upper and my only interest in the subject is theoretical. Who knows, if I get bored, I might just write the letter to find out.

    ;)
     
  7. Karat

    Karat Sharpshooter

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    You know I was wondering the same thing when I saw that thread about .410 uppers the other day...and thanks to Dustin I got atleast one of my ?s answered, why judge isn't a SBS...
     
  8. Eric67

    Eric67 Sharpshooter

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    I couldn't agree more, I don't think (or at least hope) that anyone reading this takes this thread or any other like it as nothing more than it is, just us having a converstion about it and speculating what the correct interpretation is. I would never put my nuts in a vice over someting I didn't have definitive clarification on.

    Good thread though.
     
  9. gillman7

    gillman7 Sharpshooter

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    Wouldn't a 45 Long Colt barrell be the same?
     
  10. WhiteyMacD

    WhiteyMacD Sharpshooter

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    Yeah a .410 rifled barrel is a 45LC. And that is my point, technically, based on the information here, wouldnt that now be a rifle and subject to the 16" minimum barrel length? But its not, because the firearm was manufactured as a shotgun, it still retains the 18" minimum. (as stated previously, this example cannot be considered a DD, as the bore is less than .50). Same could be said for a 20ga. Rifled 20ga barrel cannot be 16" although it is a rifled barrel.
     

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