Shooting "not to kill"

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deerwhacker444

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I responded to her...she said she understands what I said and she will be carrying her P938. Hopefully she never has to use it, but at least she stands a better sporting chance with it than a .22
Can she shoot the P938 well, mini pistols and beginners aren't synonymous. I'd much rather put half a dozen .22's on the mark than throw a pattern with something I can't shoot well.
 

adamsredlines

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She does well with the P938. We shot alot of stuff when she was looking and that was a good compromise with her.
She shot it better than she did my Buckmark, 92, and 1911's.
We've also tried LCR, LCP, Bodyguard, GP100, SP101...and she settled in on the P938.
 

mugsy

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Shoot to stop, not to kill. For legal reasons and your own peace of mind.
Not talking about where to aim, but your intent.
Unfortunately for the perp, the best way to stop someone also happens to be the way most likely to kill them.

And we have a winner! You shoot to stop the threat, not to kill, not to wound, but to stop the threat. That is how she needs to visualize her act of self-defense. Most decent people have an inherent dislike of the idea of killing another human being. Thank goodness for that, don't try to persuade her that is bad, heck, it is the mark of her human empathy. But every human has a right to defend himself against unjust attack that is what she needs to keep in mind - the attacker is causing the situation and the defender is merely justly resisting and defending her own life.
 

druryj

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.22 is better than nothing, and given her mindset, it might take an actual encounter for her to understand the folly of her logic.

if you're being attacked, i don't think you care whether or not the other guy lives. that's when you'll wish you had a more effective weapon.

the mindset is ignorant. even a .22 will kill, and you won't have the presence of mind in a life-or-death situation like it's some kind of matrix movie. That bad guy is going to kill you, he's not going to ask you for the permission.

Tell her to get a stun gun or pepper spray until she's ready to defend her life. otherwise she's more danger than help to herself and others carrying a gun. Hesitating because you're not sure is just as dangerous as not carrying a gun at all. Guns are for killing, if you don't want to kill don't carry a gun.

but what do i know, i'm just a millenial. that's just my .02 for what its worth.

TJ, you say things that sometimes defy all logic to me. For example: "even a .22 will kill" ... sure; a .22 can kill, and often does...when the person bleeds out maybe 20 minutes later. And guess what? That may be too late; in the interim, the bad guy has plenty of time to beat you to death with a crowbar. And then you said:
"Guns are for killing, if you don't want to kill don't carry a gun". There is so much wrong here I don't really know where to start. If you ever do have to use your firearm in self defense, you can have the best lawyer in the world but I'm afraid you will get life in prison if you ever open your mouth on the stand and say shizz like that. Your gun is for self-defense; for stopping the threat. It CAN kill, and very well MIGHT kill...but once the threat is stopped, you need to stop shooting too. The part that "kills" me is this:"...
if you don't want to kill don't carry a gun." Let me tell you something in no uncertain terms; I do not want to kill anyone. And yes, I do carry a gun, and yes, I will use it if I have to do so. But that doesn't mean I want to kill! Good grief...please, think before you ...oh never mind.
 

Frederick

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TJ, you say things that sometimes defy all logic to me. For example: "even a .22 will kill" ... sure; a .22 can kill, and often does...when the person bleeds out maybe 20 minutes later. And guess what? That may be too late; in the interim, the bad guy has plenty of time to beat you to death with a crowbar. And then you said:
"Guns are for killing, if you don't want to kill don't carry a gun". There is so much wrong here I don't really know where to start. If you ever do have to use your firearm in self defense, you can have the best lawyer in the world but I'm afraid you will get life in prison if you ever open your mouth on the stand and say shizz like that. Your gun is for self-defense; for stopping the threat. It CAN kill, and very well MIGHT kill...but once the threat is stopped, you need to stop shooting too. The part that "kills" me is this:"...
if you don't want to kill don't carry a gun." Let me tell you something in no uncertain terms; I do not want to kill anyone. And yes, I do carry a gun, and yes, I will use it if I have to do so. But that doesn't mean I want to kill! Good grief...please, think before you ...oh never mind.

I think you're misunderstanding my point.

My point is not that you should want to or seek to kill the other person, ultimately your goal is to stop the threat.

But you have to accept that a firearm is a lethal weapon, and often stopping the threat means killing. If you aren't willing to accept that premise, you shouldn't carry a firearm. If you carry a gun without the willingness to use it, that's dangerous.

The moment you bring out a firearm, you are creating an inherently deadly situation. There are no half measures when you're shooting someone. if you pull a gun, you have to be prepared to use it. and you must assume that your actions will result in the death of the other individual.

You took that very basic point -- you have to have the mindset and understanding that if you carry a gun you may very well have to kill someone in self-defense. you must be willing to use it -- and turned it into some sort of bloodlust whereby i encourage people to go around Jerome Ersland style shooting incapacitated attackers on the ground execution-style.

This woman is compromising her safety for the safety of the perpetrator. that's dangerous. She's choosing a .22 over a much more effective handgun round in order to minimize the chance of killing her attacker. the .22 is better than nothing, but she should carry a larger caliber with self-defense rounds IMO. She should be aware that even with a .22, a firearm is still a deadly weapon.

If she goes into a life or death situation unwilling to kill, that perp may very well take advantage of that because there are folks out there that don't have that compunction.

I'm not saying you should want to kill, but that if you carry a gun, you should be prepared for that very likely outcome.

here's a good article on fatality rates;

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power


There's no shooting for the kneecaps in a real life or death situation, and you have to be prepared to end another human's life to protect your own, otherwise you have no business carrying a gun. Being prepared to end a life to protect yours is not the same as wanting to kill.

If she isn't willing to use her firearm because she's afraid she'll kill the other person, she's probably better off using pepper spray or a stun gun because it's more likely the bad guy is going to take her gun from her and use it on her or other victims than help her if she's not willing to use it for fear of killing the perp.

If you don't want to kill someone, don't carry a gun. because that's what guns are designed for. that's what they do. Even if that's not the ultimate goal of carrying a gun, that's the likely outcome. one has to accept that. if you're unwilling to accept that using a gun could potentially result in someone else losing their life, don't carry a gun.
 
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druryj

In Remembrance / Dec 27 2021
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OK, TJ, perhaps I am a little harsh with you. I will apologize for that; at least, you participate in discussion. Let's say we substitute the word willing for the word want in relation to the act of killing someone. There's a big difference in being willing to kill, and wanting to kill. I'd like to give you that, because I think that you mean well but your words may not display it in a very clear fashion to all of us. And like I said, at least you do participate and for that, I thank you.


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Frederick

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OK, TJ, perhaps I am a little harsh with you. I will apologize for that; at least, you participate in discussion. Let's say we substitute the word willing for the word want in relation to the act of killing someone. There's a big difference in being willing to kill, and wanting to kill. I'd like to give you that, because I think that you mean well but your words may not display it in a very clear fashion to all of us. And like I said, at least you do participate and for that, I thank you.


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I appreciate your consideration, and i will say that perhaps 'want' is not the appropriate word in this case.

i try to approach arguments in good faith and i have a very bad habit of not filtering what i say very well, which has tended to dig me some pretty big holes.
 

druryj

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I appreciate your consideration, and i will say that perhaps 'want' is not the appropriate word in this case.

i try to approach arguments in good faith and i have a very bad habit of not filtering what i say very well, which has tended to dig me some pretty big holes.

Those who have learned good judgment often tend to have learned that from practicing bad judgment.


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