Sig wins Next Gen Squad Weapon

[GnometownHero]

General Dynamics platform built for the .308 Norma Mag was supposed to be a big player in belt fed guns I thought

 

[JEVapa]

The point I am making is the SAW version is low on firepower when fielded as a one man weapon. 50 rounds is not even 2 30 round M4 magazines. A SAW gunner needs to be able to put out a lot of suppressive fire, the more accurate the better. Military weapons are often chosen because of the bennies the company offers the politicians who can make the sale happen. True it is not a heavy weapon but the ammo is as bulky as the 7.62 NATO round and only 30% lighter. Belt fed it has the same limitations the M60 did having to be crew served. The M60 worked OK as a machine gun but not as a SAW, it sucked because of the number of guys it took to feed it. That meant possibly three soldiers close together making for a good sized target. No weapon system has ever come online without problems. I am not sold on the cartridge case being two part and different metals simply because of the expense of making the ammo and possible durability issues. As for the 277 Fury itself, have been a long time fan of the old standard 270. Same for the 308. I wouldn't consider either of them perfect for the SAW role.

The M60 is a belt-fed machine gun that fires the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge (similar to .308 Winchester), commonly used in larger rifles. It is generally used as a crew-served weapon and operated by a team of two or three individuals. The team consists of the gunner, the assistant gunner (AG), and the ammunition bearer. The gun's weight and the amount of ammunition it can consume when fired make it difficult for a single soldier to carry and operate. The gunner carries the weapon and, depending on his strength and stamina, anywhere from 200 to 1,000 rounds of ammunition. The assistant carries a spare barrel and extra ammunition, and reloads and spots targets for the gunner. The ammunition bearer carries additional ammunition and the tripod with associated traversing and elevation mechanism, if issued, and fetches more ammunition as needed during firing.

I admit to liking the rifle version for the designated marksman role which both the AR10 and M14 have also done well in.

WRT your machinegun knowledge, have you ever been a maggot? Have you used a pig or a 240 or a 249 in the military? I still have a copy of a 23-67 and the last time we used the pig was around 95-98...they were getting phased out. The army has been using the 240 over 20 years now...closer to 25+. The pig has been long gone. That looks like a copy/paste from the internet somewhere.

BTW, the M60 always was a MG. It's never been used as an automatic rifle. The M249 is a LMG who's role was to replace the Automatic rifleman in an infantry squad; we first got them in 1987. It always has been and always will be a one-man weapon; it is not a crew-served weapon. It uses a standard 200 round box drum that clips to the bottom of the gun...not 50 rounds...??? The SAW gunner usually carries two to four of these boxes, and there will be four to eight more strung through the squad along with the rest of their heavy ass sh*t. It also has 100 round "nutsacks" to make it a little lighter. Its role is still as the automatic rifleman weapon now called the Squad Automatic Weapon. It is not intended to replace the former M60 or the current M240 light/medium MG or used in the traditional MG role, (unless of course that's all you got coz you left your 240 in the firebase).

The "bigger target" theory you say of the M60 (which again, hasn't been used for over 20 years but now the M240) because of the amount of manpower required to "feed it", is bunk. What makes it a bigger target is that it's the greatest casualty-producing weapon on the battlefield. MG are always the first thing that draws everybody's' attention and fire.

Back to my original point. They have been working this issue for the last 3+ years to get to this point. They know what they are doing and regardless of "expert" opinions, again, they kind of know what they're doing.

 

[JEVapa]

General Dynamics platform built for the .308 Norma Mag was supposed to be a big player in belt fed guns I thought

They made the .338NM MG.

 

[Rickt300]

WRT your machinegun knowledge, have you ever been a maggot? Have you used a pig or a 240 or a 249 in the military? I still have a copy of a 23-67 and the last time we used the pig was around 95-98...they were getting phased out. The army has been using the 240 over 20 years now...closer to 25+. The pig has been long gone. That looks like a copy/paste from the internet somewhere.

BTW, the M60 always was a MG. It's never been used as an automatic rifle. The M249 is a LMG who's role was to replace the Automatic rifleman in an infantry squad; we first got them in 1987. It always has been and always will be a one-man weapon; it is not a crew-served weapon. It uses a standard 200 round box drum that clips to the bottom of the gun...not 50 rounds...??? The SAW gunner usually carries two to four of these boxes, and there will be four to eight more strung through the squad along with the rest of their heavy ass sh*t. It also has 100 round "nutsacks" to make it a little lighter. Its role is still as the automatic rifleman weapon now called the Squad Automatic Weapon. It is not intended to replace the former M60 or the current M240 light/medium MG or used in the traditional MG role, (unless of course that's all you got coz you left your 240 in the firebase).

The "bigger target" theory you say of the M60 (which again, hasn't been used for over 20 years but now the M240) because of the amount of manpower required to "feed it", is bunk. What makes it a bigger target is that it's the greatest casualty-producing weapon on the battlefield. MG are always the first thing that draws everybody's' attention and fire.

Back to my original point. They have been working this issue for the last 3+ years to get to this point. They know what they are doing and regardless of "expert" opinions, again, they kind of know what they're doing.

Yes it was cut and paste, information you need to understand why the X250 is not exactly the ideal SAW. The SAW was developed to solve the problems the M60 possessed. Those same problems were not cured by the M240, the M240 being a more reliable weapon than the M60 but both are medium machine guns not good SAW's. You appear to have reading comprehension issues. You seem to not remember Vietnam where these lessons were learned the hard way. 3+ years? Boy what a stretch of time! And all to come up with a SAW that lacks firepower when served by one man, firepower that can only be improved with belt feeding it. Being belt fed it requires more than one person to run and supply ammo to. A high pressure round that requires the added weight and length of a suppressor. What I am trying to get through your fog is that the X250 is more of a medium machine gun than a good SAW and the reason for this is the bullk of the ammunition. Don't be surprised if in the future the weapon cartridge is changed to the 7.62x51. Are you all fired up over these weapons because they have a "cool factor"? And regarding your lack of reading comprehension the points I am making directly compare the X250 to the M249 and comparing the X250 to the M60/M240. The carry ammo capacity for the X250 is 50 rounds where the M249 usually has a 200 round capacity. The X250 is more comparable to medium machine guns than the M249. Which by the way many consider an excellent SAW.

 

[JEVapa]

Yes it was cut and paste, information you need to understand why the X250 is not exactly the ideal SAW. The SAW was developed to solve the problems the M60 possessed. Those same problems were not cured by the M240, the M240 being a more reliable weapon than the M60 but both are medium machine guns not good SAW's. You appear to have reading comprehension issues. You seem to not remember Vietnam where these lessons were learned the hard way. 3+ years? Boy what a stretch of time! And all to come up with a SAW that lacks firepower when served by one man, firepower that can only be improved with belt feeding it. Being belt fed it requires more than one person to run and supply ammo to. A high pressure round that requires the added weight and length of a suppressor. What I am trying to get through your fog is that the X250 is more of a medium machine gun than a good SAW and the reason for this is the bullk of the ammunition. Don't be surprised if in the future the weapon cartridge is changed to the 7.62x51. Are you all fired up over these weapons because they have a "cool factor"? And regarding your lack of reading comprehension the points I am making directly compare the X250 to the M249 and comparing the X250 to the M60/M240. The carry ammo capacity for the X250 is 50 rounds where the M249 usually has a 200 round capacity. The X250 is more comparable to medium machine guns than the M249. Which by the way may consider an excellent SAW.

My comprehension is fine and I addressed all your points. I didn't cut/paste anything because I didn't have to...I know what I'm talking about. However, I don't believe you know what you are talking about and have never employed a machinegun of any type in either a training or combat environment. The first half of your post is patently false on every point and further serves to support the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. You have obviously never used an M249 nor an M240 or an M60 or construct of an Infantry squad/platoon and it's tactics, and you are mixing doctrine and words and making it into gobbledygook.

If you are a knowitall about something and it's based in facts, cool - we have a lot of those dudes here and they can back it up. But if you're gonna be a knowitall and be as wrong as two little boys, then maybe you should stop. There are dudes in this forum that have carried a pig and SAWs and M240s and employed them in combat.

Next, you'll be talking about how 5.56 tumbles in combat or how magazines have to have a certain color follower to be good. Done here.

 

[JD8]

My comprehension is fine and I addressed all your points. I didn't cut/paste anything because I didn't have to...I know what I'm talking about. However, I don't believe you know what you are talking about and have never employed a machinegun of any type in either a training or combat environment. The first half of your post is patently false on every point and further serves to support the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. You have obviously never used an M249 nor an M240 or an M60 or construct of an Infantry squad/platoon and it's tactics, and you are mixing doctrine and words and making it into gobbledygook.

If you are a knowitall about something and it's based in facts, cool - we have a lot of those dudes here and they can back it up. But if you're gonna be a knowitall and be as wrong as two little boys, then maybe you should stop. There are dudes in this forum that have carried a pig and SAWs and M240s and employed them in combat.

Next, you'll be talking about how 5.56 tumbles in combat or how magazines have to have a certain color follower to be good. Done here.

Oh..... Oh!!!! Pick me!!!

Orange?!!! It's orange right?!!!


I don't know chit other than I saw a video on the polymer cased ammo and that looks really cool.

 

[RETOKSQUID]

Next topic. Range Cards, a Red Herring for pogs, or useful tool? LTs want to know.

 

[Rickt300]

My comprehension is fine and I addressed all your points. I didn't cut/paste anything because I didn't have to...I know what I'm talking about. However, I don't believe you know what you are talking about and have never employed a machinegun of any type in either a training or combat environment. The first half of your post is patently false on every point and further serves to support the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. You have obviously never used an M249 nor an M240 or an M60 or construct of an Infantry squad/platoon and it's tactics, and you are mixing doctrine and words and making it into gobbledygook.

If you are a knowitall about something and it's based in facts, cool - we have a lot of those dudes here and they can back it up. But if you're gonna be a knowitall and be as wrong as two little boys, then maybe you should stop. There are dudes in this forum that have carried a pig and SAWs and M240s and employed them in combat.

Next, you'll be talking about how 5.56 tumbles in combat or how magazines have to have a certain color follower to be good. Done here.

Obviously your reading comprehension is limited or you would understand that the X250 is not going to be a good SAW. If what I posted is above your pay grade then stop replying. You have yet to address the disparity between the number of rounds 50 is less than 200. A SAW first duty is suppressive fire/base of fire. 50 rounds is 25% of what a M249 can field. I have burned more 5.56 than you have ever seen in your life. A considerable amount of 7.62. I have given you fact and you just run your head and spew BS. What I don't understand is why you are so enthused about an unproven system that has obvious issues and expensive ammunition that is not a NATO round. The 277 Fury may have some benefits, shoot a little flatter and carry a bit more energy way out there. I haven't seen the BC numbers yet so I can't say how much of an improvement 3000 fps and a 140 grain bullet has over a 150 grain bullet at 2800fps. I feel it would take a pretty good shot to actually show any real improvement. No matter what the system 80K psi is going to take a toll on the weapon and most likely force the use of a suppressor. I'd bet those suppressors burn out pretty quick. But since your knowledge base is so weak I felt you were done several posts ago and were just spewing BS to have something to do. By the way the old 55 grain M193 round does often tumble and break up when it hits flesh.

 

[JEVapa]

Obviously your reading comprehension is limited or you would understand that the X250 is not going to be a good SAW. If what I posted is above your pay grade then stop replying. You have yet to address the disparity between the number of rounds 50 is less than 200. A SAW first duty is suppressive fire/base of fire. 50 rounds is 25% of what a M249 can field. I have burned more 5.56 than you have ever seen in your life. A considerable amount of 7.62. I have given you fact and you just run your head and spew BS. What I don't understand is why you are so enthused about an unproven system that has obvious issues and expensive ammunition that is not a NATO round. The 277 Fury may have some benefits, shoot a little flatter and carry a bit more energy way out there. I haven't seen the BC numbers yet so I can't say how much of an improvement 3000 fps and a 140 grain bullet has over a 150 grain bullet at 2800fps. I feel it would take a pretty good shot to actually show any real improvement. No matter what the system 80K psi is going to take a toll on the weapon and most likely force the use of a suppressor. I'd bet those suppressors burn out pretty quick. But since your knowledge base is so weak I felt you were done several posts ago and were just spewing BS to have something to do. By the way the old 55 grain M193 round does often tumble and break up when it hits flesh.

Just quit bro. You don't know what you are talking about and you know jack about MGs and less about Army Acquisition. Even Wikipedia has a pretty good few pages you could go to and read on both subjects so it sounds kinda like you know. It's XM250...X=Experimental...designation for a development project. Now that it's adopted, it will become the M250 by dropping the X, the rifle will be the M5.

I thought maybe you knew what you were talking about but it's obvious you just copied and pasted words to sound like you do. You're spewing word salad and now trying to justify yourself with "more 5.56" rounds in my lifetime and whatever else. It's laughable. I would still like to know when the last time you carried a machinegun into anywhere and placed it into operation since you're a walking FM 23-67.

 

[JEVapa]

Next topic. Range Cards, a Red Herring for pogs, or useful tool? LTs want to know.

We should have a range card contest. They're good for fixed positions, but most Fobbits can't decipher them.