Snowflakes exist, even in Oklahoma.

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TerryMiller

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Okay, people I was just trying to answer the OP's statement about what a "registered" gun is. It was not my intention to either acknowledge or deny the potential theoretical existence of a super double-secret illegal government database that may or may not exist, but go on acting like that's what I was talking about.

FWIW, if such a database does exist, it's not really a registry, or at least it's not complete because there is an unknown number of guns that have changed hands without the "registry" being updated, not to mention how many 4473's are still in the hands of dealers. So if you bought it in Oklahoma from a dealer or otherwise, it's still not "registered". But again, that was not my point in the first place.

Maybe it is MORE detrimental for gun owners to be posting pictures of their firearms on public forums?

That is something that is absolutely NO PROBLEM for the alphabet agencies to check out and record.
 

Chuckie

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Okay, people I was just trying to answer the OP's statement about what a "registered" gun is. It was not my intention to either acknowledge or deny the potential theoretical existence of a super double-secret illegal government database that may or may not exist, but go on acting like that's what I was talking about.

FWIW, if such a database does exist, it's not really a registry, or at least it's not complete because there is an unknown number of guns that have changed hands without the "registry" being updated, not to mention how many 4473's are still in the hands of dealers. So if you bought it in Oklahoma from a dealer or otherwise, it's still not "registered". But again, that was not my point in the first place.
Any FFL dealers out there that actively sell firearms with the requirement to report the sales to the BATF want to chime-in about what information is actually submitted (not just required) either telephonically or on-line during a firearm sale process? Does the information, at the time of sale or shortly thereafter, submitted to any authority contain any information about the firearm purchased (i.e. Brand, Model, Caliber, SSN, Mfg date, Type Code, etc.)? Would this type of information reporting be honestly revealed to the public or does it fall under some sort of 'privacy' thing?
 

James Abram

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Any FFL dealers out there that actively sell firearms with the requirement to report the sales to the BATF want to chime-in about what information is actually submitted (not just required) either telephonically or on-line during a firearm sale process? Does the information, at the time of sale or shortly thereafter, submitted to any authority contain any information about the firearm purchased (i.e. Brand, Model, Caliber, SSN, Mfg date, Type Code, etc.)? Would this type of information reporting be honestly revealed to the public or does it fall under some sort of 'privacy' thing?
As an active FFL and gun store owner I can answer your question.

When you purchase a gun from an FFL dealer you will fill out an ATF form 4473. This form has all of your information as well as the information of the gun (manufacturer, type, caliber, SN). This form is NOT transmitted to the ATF in any way, but is held in the FFL’s records indefinitely. Only if the FFL closes, loses their license, or dies do these forms go to the ATF. So at this point ONLY you and the FFL know what you are buying.

Next, we submit a NICS background check to the FBI. This can be done either by computer or by phone. During this step we give them your information including name, birthdate, state of residence, state of birth, height, weight, gender, ethnicity, citizenship, SS# (which is optional), and DL#. We also tell them what the check is for…sale of LONG GUN, sale of HANDGUN, sale of OTHER…but NO information about the gun is provided. We receive an answer of PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. If we receive a proceed we finish the transaction and you leave with the gun. If we receive a delay we wait, sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes days. If we receive a response from the FBI to proceed then we do, but if no response is recieved within 3 business days we can transfer the gun as if there was a proceed. If there is a deny, you don’t get the gun, period. So at this point the FBI knows you are buying a gun, but they have NO knowledge of manufacturer, caliber, or SN, only if it’s a handgun, long gun, or other.

Now, if you purchase two or more HANDGUNS in a 5 day period we have to send a form to the ATF with your info AND the firearms info, so NOW the ATF knows ALL of the information on what guns you have purchased. A copy of the form is also sent to the local Sherriff or head LEO in your county, so he also knows you’ve purchased two or more handguns and all of their info.

So in conclusion, after you buy a handgun, rifle, shotgun, other, or multiple rifles, shotguns or others, the ATF knows NOTHING and FBI only knows you bought a gun. Now if you buy multiple handguns the ATF knows everything.

Since there is no record or database on private sales, the FEDS will have no idea what guns you might have bought or sold to private parties.

At ANY time the ATF can look at our records and see what and to whom every gun we’ve sold. This is how they trace SN’s to solve crimes. Even on regular inspections the ATF doesn’t leave with your info.
 
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Lineman

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That’s a boy that should be automatically dismissed from said property and not allowed to date his daughter.
If the parents are that bat $*** crazy, kid is probably the same. Sounds like a messed up family, anybody that’s 16 and wants to date my daughters better know how to hunt, fish, shoot and not run to mommy…
If he has a cousin with a kid his age I’d have him whip that kids ass or better yet have his daughter.
 

Chuckie

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As an active FFL and gun store owner I can answer your question.

When you purchase a gun from an FFL dealer you will fill out an ATF form 4473. This form has all of your information as well as the information of the gun (manufacturer, type, caliber, SN). This form is NOT transmitted to the ATF in any way, but is held in the FFL’s records indefinitely. Only if the FFL closes, loses their license, or dies do these forms go to the ATF. So at this point ONLY you and the FFL know what you are buying.

Next, we submit a NICS background check to the FBI. This can be done either by computer or by phone. During this step we give them your information including name, birthdate, state of residence, state of birth, height, weight, gender, ethnicity, citizenship, SS# (which is optional), and DL#. We also tell them what the check is for…sale of LONG GUN, sale of HANDGUN, sale of OTHER…but NO information about the gun is provided. We receive an answer of PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. If we receive a proceed we finish the transaction and you leave with the gun. If we receive a delay we wait, sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes days. If we receive a response from the FBI to proceed then we do, but if no response is recieved within 3 business days we can transfer the gun as if there was a proceed. If there is a deny, you don’t get the gun, period. So at this point the FBI knows you are buying a gun, but they have NO knowledge of manufacturer, caliber, or SN, only if it’s a handgun, long gun, or other.

Now, if you purchase two or more HANDGUNS in a 5 day period we have to send a form to the ATF with your info AND the firearms info, so NOW the ATF knows ALL of the information on what guns you have purchased. A copy of the form is also sent to the local Sherriff or head LEO in your county, so he also knows you’ve purchased two or more handguns and all of their info.

So in conclusion, after you buy a handgun, rifle, shotgun, other, or multiple rifles, shotguns or others, the ATF knows NOTHING and FBI only knows you bought a gun. Now if you buy multiple handguns the ATF knows everything.

Since there is no record or database on private sales, the FEDS will have no idea what guns you might have bought or sold to private parties.

At ANY time the ATF can look at our records and see what and to whom every gun we’ve sold. This is how they trace SN’s to solve crimes. Even on regular inspections the ATF doesn’t leave with your info.
Thank you James. That spells out exactly what I was looking for. I knew that the 4473 wasn't routinely forwarded but I wasn't sure about what was actually transmitted during the NICS check.
 

HFS

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I thought it could be purged after 10yrs?
Two things.
1) I *thought* the 4473 forms could be purged by the FFL after 20 years, if they are still in business.
2) The new 4473 forms have the firearm information (make, caliber and serial number) at the top of page 1. That is, at the top of the same front page as the buyer's info (name, address, DOB, etc).

If I were a cynical person I would say the ATF redesigned the form intentionally, so they will only have to scan/photocopy/take a picture of one page of the form, the front page, to get the information they want.

Again if I were cynical, I would also wonder if they were quietly doing this during FFL inspections/audits or whatever.
 

Chuckie

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Two things.
1) I *thought* the 4473 forms could be purged by the FFL after 20 years, if they are still in business.
2) The new 4473 forms have the firearm information (make, caliber and serial number) at the top of page 1. That is, at the top of the same front page as the buyer's info (name, address, DOB, etc).

If I were a cynical person I would say the ATF redesigned the form intentionally, so they will only have to scan/photocopy/take a picture of one page of the form, the front page, to get the information they want.

Again if I were cynical, I would also wonder if they were quietly doing this during FFL inspections/audits or whatever.
'Tis something to ponder over 🤔
 

James Abram

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'Tis something to ponder over 🤔
I can tell you during inspections, you as an individual buying a gun is the last thing they are worried about, I’d almost say they couldn’t care less. What they DO care about is that I AM logging and tracking guns probably and doing the correct background checks. I have never seen them take a scan or photo of the 4473 unless their is an egregious error on it.
 

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