Straw purchase question

[sh00ter]

I was once at an Academy asking questions to the counter people because I had seen a husband in there buying a gun for his wife (didn't bug them while sale was going on, it was later on), and they told me that it's legal for a gift to immediate family (they also said grandpa for grandkid, etc). They said the key was if money was going to exchange hands.

But even then they said that you could buy a gun and then a month later decided to sell or even give it away to someone else as long as they were legally allowed to own a gun. Seems like some of this is very gray area. If you bought a CCW and let your wife carry it that is also okay, but these guys were not LEO's, just counter workers so who know. Best thing to do if you are not sure is to not do it, and don't answer questions you not required to do.

 

[Waltercat]

So, I was in at academy earlier today and was trying to buy a handgun. Did my background check and the whole nine yards. When I was doing my paperwork this young salesman kept asking me questions like, is this going to be yours or are you trying to buy it for someone else and of course I said no. Then he asked me if I was buying it for my wife, I stopped him right there and said, I am allowed to do that aren’t I? He then said yes. Ok, when I went to pay for it I was using my wife’s academy card which he then said I wasn’t allowed to use this card with out her being there. Ok fine. So I called my wife gave her the card, she went back in to try to buy the same gun and he said no because it would’ve been a straw purchase. What the heck? I mean it’s no big deal either way, just curious

I found Academy to be a royal PITA to purchase a hand gun from. Never again.
Also. I purchased two very cheap gun cases. The kid at the register opened them up and ran his arm down them to see if I stuffed any contraband in them. These things were paper thin with no way of concealing anything. Academy has even done this with socks when my wife was there.

 

[OK Corgi Rancher]

Agreed completely. It even says on the form you can buy for a spouse.

The issue is when the hounding starts.

I wasn't there but I would have responded that all questions on the 4473 are accurate to the law and that is how I will answer them Mr store person.

I don't believe it does. I've never seen that on the 4473 thru the various versions from 1997 to Dec 2022. You can buy a gun for your spouse (assuming he/she isn't prohibited) only as a legitimate gift. That's true for buying it for anyone else as well. The instructions on the 4473 make no mention of spouses as an exception to the straw purchase rule.

These are the instructions for question 21.a.:

Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is
the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave
the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire
the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.

EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “no” to question 21.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown buys the firearm with his own money to give to Mr.
Black as a gift (with no service or tangible thing of value provided by Mr. Black), Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 21.a. However, the transferor/seller may not transfer a firearm to any
person he/she knows or has reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18
U.S.C. § 922(g), (h), (n), or (x).

Technically, if your wife wants a particular gun but can't make it by the store to buy it and you say you'll pick it up for her, that is definitely a straw purchase, though not the type everyone thinks of. In the eyes of the ATF, it doesn't matter.

If, however, you go in, pick out the gun, fill out the form and go home with it and give it to your wife, who's gonna know? In reality, that's a scenario that's unlikely to ever be a problem. But...you did lie on a federal form so there's that.

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. It's really a good idea to take the time to read the form instructions and even some of the FAQs on the ATF website.

ATF Form 4473​

Applicable Laws and Regulations: 18 U.S.C. § 923(g); 27 CFR §§ 478.21, 478.124, 478.134.

You must obtain a completed Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473 (5300.9) (Form 4473); and, if necessary, an ATF Form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record Continuation Sheet (5300.9A), for every transfer of a firearm(s) to a non-licensee. The licensee must ensure each ATF Form 4473 is completed correctly in accordance with the instructions on the form. The correct completion of these forms enhances traceability of firearms. Correctly completing ATF Forms 4473 is one of the most important things you can do to ensure that ATF can trace crime guns. An ATF Form 4473 must be completed when you:

1. Sell or trade a firearm;
2. Return a consignment firearm;
3. Return a pawned firearm;
4. Loan or rent a firearm for use away from your licensed premises; or,
5. Otherwise transfer or dispose of a firearm to a non-licensed person.

Note: You may only transfer a firearm to the person who completed the ATF Form 4473 and NOT to a spouse, relative, or other representative of that person.

 

[Garrus Vakarian]

I don't believe it does. I've never seen that on the 4473 thru the various versions from 1997 to Dec 2022. You can buy a gun for your spouse (assuming he/she isn't prohibited) only as a legitimate gift. That's true for buying it for anyone else as well. The instructions on the 4473 make no mention of spouses as an exception to the straw purchase rule.

These are the instructions for question 21.a.:



Technically, if your wife wants a particular gun but can't make it by the store to buy it and you say you'll pick it up for her, that is definitely a straw purchase, though not the type everyone thinks of. In the eyes of the ATF, it doesn't matter.

If, however, you go in, pick out the gun, fill out the form and go home with it and give it to your wife, who's gonna know? In reality, that's a scenario that's unlikely to ever be a problem. But...you did lie on a federal form so there's that.

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. It's really a good idea to take the time to read the form instructions and even some of the FAQs on the ATF website.

The gift clause is what I was referring to. The bona-fide gift clause.

You are allowed to purchase as a gift to a third party as long as that person did not pay for said item....blah blah blah.....


Second Amendment shall not be infringed!


Let's go Brandon

 

[okietool]

Back on my delay days my wife would look at me and ask “Is this the one I want?” It turned she didn’t really like the ones I thought she did so I ended up taking them off her hands as a favor.

 

[madokie]

why is it called a "staw" purchase anyway?

 

[Gideon]

Friends of mine had a similar issue at Academy, but the issue was less about the law, and more about their policy with regard to credit cards.
Man and wife were present to purchase firearm, he filled out form and was approved. Credit card had her name (still maiden name) on it and they refused the sale because their policy was that the payment had to come from the purchaser.

They went down the road and bought it elsewhere.

 

[SoonerP226]

why is it called a "staw" purchase anyway?

I'm pretty sure it's a shortened version of "straw man purchase," with "straw man" referring to the "straw man argument," where a person is arguing against a point that is not actually being argued. Similarly, in a straw man purchase, the person who is apparently making the purchase is not the person who's actually making the purchase.

 

[Reed4ammo]

**** Academy, find you a good FFL and stick with them. I drive all the way from Sapulpa to Wild West Gun & Pawn in Tulsa and do all my business with the owner. There's at least 2 dozen FFL's between my house and his store but it's the good relationship that keeps me going back. Just my 3 cents.

 

[Virtuaguyver]

Every gun store has its own policies and dumbasses. Remember when Academy was limiting thier ammo to 3 boxes a customer? Well I would make my wife go with me and we would grab 3 each. We get up to the counter and use my Academy credit card, some employees will let it go through and some will tell me she can't use my card. You never know what the deal is at Academy, and I never asked. I mean I'm standing right there...