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The Range
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Terminal Ballistics from the Morgue
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<blockquote data-quote="ldp4570" data-source="post: 1199263" data-attributes="member: 5168"><p>When I started this thread a couple weeks ago my intent was just to relay a CCW story I had been involved in. Since then it has morphed into a lengthy discussion on calibers, bullets, velocity, wound characteristics, and other things. Also, judging from the number of views, it seems to have generated a fair amount of interest, due, I think, to a unique perspective of an ex-policeman and avid shooter working in a morgue. Please understand that I don't profess to be an expert in ballistics since I've had no formal training although I have been hunting and shooting for the better part of 50 years now. What I've been relaying are simply observations based on empirical evidence I see every day in the morgue, nothing more.</p><p></p><p>That said, I'm wondering where else to take this thread, if anywhere. If you guys want to let this wither on the vine here it's ok with me. If there are any other topics along these lines that might be of interest, we can continue it if you like. Suggestions?</p><p></p><p>You're right, it is a good question, but one I won't be able to answer, unfortunately. No, I've never seen a Glazer or MagSafe come through the morgue. Let me ask around a bit and see what I can find out. I got called out to south Georgia last night and will be gone through at least Wednesday and probably longer so it might be a few days before I can get back with you. Until then, if you guys can come up with some more questions like this one I'll try to answer them when I get back. I've already got questions on knives (trust me, leave 'em at home if you're expecting a gunfight although some folks still give them a try), assault weapons, and the .416 Rigby that I'll answer when I return.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, yes, I've seen the 145-grain Silvertip at autopsy (as well as the more common 125-grain variety) and like all .357 wounds I've seen, it was really impressive. For the life of me I can't recall the details of shot placement or specific damage. I see so many gunshots at the morgue that I usually can't recall the specifics of individual cases except to form an opinion over time of what bullets and what calibers work and don't work. And, believe me, the .357 works! With any bullet style, with any powder charge. Carry it if you have it.</p><p></p><p>Oh, I do remember one from long ago that's interesting. I never got the whole story on it, but it seems a BG somehow got hold of some .357 handloads that used a 148-grain hollowbase wadcutter--inverted, no less. Talk about a hollowpoint! I don't know what velocity it was loaded at but from all indications it was really cooking and probably loaded the lands and grooves with lead as it traversed the barrel. Fortunately, he smoked the other BG (sniff)with one shot in the chest and didn't blow up the gun with a subsequent shot. When we dug it out at autopsy it was about the size of a quarter and was about as thick. That's one of only a handful of handloads that I've seen on the autopsy table but it was most memorable.</p><p></p><p>Let's see if I can get to a few other unanswered questions. First, knife fights vs. guns. If given the choice, take the gun, always the gun. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is almost always a poor choice but one we see occasionally in suicide-by-cop. In these cases, the BG almost always loses. Fortunately, the Tueller Rule is (hopefully) now taught in virtually every law enforcement academy and distances between the cop and the BG that were widely perceived to be safe at one time are now considered well within the danger zone. By the way, there's a really good re-evaluation of the Tueller Rule at <a href="http://www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-21-feet-valid.htm" target="_blank">www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-21-feet-valid.htm</a>. It's well worth reading and serves to emphasize that a knife-wielding BG can be a formidable adversary and may well justify lengthening the 21-foot rule. Reading the article can explain it better than I can.</p><p></p><p>Oh, and, no, we don't have the plastic injection method to determine the blade length, blade shape, and number of serrations that you see on CSI. Jeez, that just cracks me up!!! On CSI, they'll take a syringe filled with some kind of liquid plastic, inject it into the knife wound, wait for it to set up, remove it, and then analyze the mold to determine the length of the blade used and whether it was single-edged or double-edged. Ah, if it were only so my job would be so much easier.</p><p></p><p>At the risk of morphing this thread even further than it's already been morphed from the CCW topic, I'll answer the question on smell and then maybe get back to the .416 Rigby, assault rifles, etc. To be honest, the smell is something you accept as part of the job but never quite get used to regardless of how long you're around it. Actually, in my job I get the best of the best and the worst of the worst. For the most part, the skeletal material I deal with has little if any smell. Unfortunately, I also get the badly decomposed bodies that the ME can do little with because of the extent of decomposition. I had one in the other day that had more maggots than you could take out in a 5-gallon bucket, but it just comes with the job. Yes, they all stink, some more than others, but you learn to deal with it.</p><p></p><p>Frequently, we see folks come into the morgue to observe autopsies and put Vicks Vaporub beneath their nose. Now think about it. What's the purpose of Vaporub? To open the sinus passages and help breathing, right? If you're there to observe an autopsy of a decomposed person, is opening the sinuses really what you want to do? I don't know where this one got started, but like most things psychosomatic, if you think it works it does.</p><p></p><p>The next question that will come up will probably be how do I get used to working around death? The long and short answer is that I just don't know. Not to sound cavalier about it, but I honestly NEVER think about it. Sure, if I thought about it long enough I could envision someone on the autopsy table as someone's mother, father, brother, sister, or dear friend. I could wonder what this person was like in real life and whether I would have liked to have known them. But I never do. In some way I don't understand, I'm able to divorce myself from the personalization of it all and carry on in a clinical, detached manner that allows me to analyze the skeletal material to determine the biological profile, trauma, and, hopefully, identification.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ldp4570, post: 1199263, member: 5168"] When I started this thread a couple weeks ago my intent was just to relay a CCW story I had been involved in. Since then it has morphed into a lengthy discussion on calibers, bullets, velocity, wound characteristics, and other things. Also, judging from the number of views, it seems to have generated a fair amount of interest, due, I think, to a unique perspective of an ex-policeman and avid shooter working in a morgue. Please understand that I don't profess to be an expert in ballistics since I've had no formal training although I have been hunting and shooting for the better part of 50 years now. What I've been relaying are simply observations based on empirical evidence I see every day in the morgue, nothing more. That said, I'm wondering where else to take this thread, if anywhere. If you guys want to let this wither on the vine here it's ok with me. If there are any other topics along these lines that might be of interest, we can continue it if you like. Suggestions? You're right, it is a good question, but one I won't be able to answer, unfortunately. No, I've never seen a Glazer or MagSafe come through the morgue. Let me ask around a bit and see what I can find out. I got called out to south Georgia last night and will be gone through at least Wednesday and probably longer so it might be a few days before I can get back with you. Until then, if you guys can come up with some more questions like this one I'll try to answer them when I get back. I've already got questions on knives (trust me, leave 'em at home if you're expecting a gunfight although some folks still give them a try), assault weapons, and the .416 Rigby that I'll answer when I return. Anyway, yes, I've seen the 145-grain Silvertip at autopsy (as well as the more common 125-grain variety) and like all .357 wounds I've seen, it was really impressive. For the life of me I can't recall the details of shot placement or specific damage. I see so many gunshots at the morgue that I usually can't recall the specifics of individual cases except to form an opinion over time of what bullets and what calibers work and don't work. And, believe me, the .357 works! With any bullet style, with any powder charge. Carry it if you have it. Oh, I do remember one from long ago that's interesting. I never got the whole story on it, but it seems a BG somehow got hold of some .357 handloads that used a 148-grain hollowbase wadcutter--inverted, no less. Talk about a hollowpoint! I don't know what velocity it was loaded at but from all indications it was really cooking and probably loaded the lands and grooves with lead as it traversed the barrel. Fortunately, he smoked the other BG (sniff)with one shot in the chest and didn't blow up the gun with a subsequent shot. When we dug it out at autopsy it was about the size of a quarter and was about as thick. That's one of only a handful of handloads that I've seen on the autopsy table but it was most memorable. Let's see if I can get to a few other unanswered questions. First, knife fights vs. guns. If given the choice, take the gun, always the gun. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is almost always a poor choice but one we see occasionally in suicide-by-cop. In these cases, the BG almost always loses. Fortunately, the Tueller Rule is (hopefully) now taught in virtually every law enforcement academy and distances between the cop and the BG that were widely perceived to be safe at one time are now considered well within the danger zone. By the way, there's a really good re-evaluation of the Tueller Rule at [url]www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-21-feet-valid.htm[/url]. It's well worth reading and serves to emphasize that a knife-wielding BG can be a formidable adversary and may well justify lengthening the 21-foot rule. Reading the article can explain it better than I can. Oh, and, no, we don't have the plastic injection method to determine the blade length, blade shape, and number of serrations that you see on CSI. Jeez, that just cracks me up!!! On CSI, they'll take a syringe filled with some kind of liquid plastic, inject it into the knife wound, wait for it to set up, remove it, and then analyze the mold to determine the length of the blade used and whether it was single-edged or double-edged. Ah, if it were only so my job would be so much easier. At the risk of morphing this thread even further than it's already been morphed from the CCW topic, I'll answer the question on smell and then maybe get back to the .416 Rigby, assault rifles, etc. To be honest, the smell is something you accept as part of the job but never quite get used to regardless of how long you're around it. Actually, in my job I get the best of the best and the worst of the worst. For the most part, the skeletal material I deal with has little if any smell. Unfortunately, I also get the badly decomposed bodies that the ME can do little with because of the extent of decomposition. I had one in the other day that had more maggots than you could take out in a 5-gallon bucket, but it just comes with the job. Yes, they all stink, some more than others, but you learn to deal with it. Frequently, we see folks come into the morgue to observe autopsies and put Vicks Vaporub beneath their nose. Now think about it. What's the purpose of Vaporub? To open the sinus passages and help breathing, right? If you're there to observe an autopsy of a decomposed person, is opening the sinuses really what you want to do? I don't know where this one got started, but like most things psychosomatic, if you think it works it does. The next question that will come up will probably be how do I get used to working around death? The long and short answer is that I just don't know. Not to sound cavalier about it, but I honestly NEVER think about it. Sure, if I thought about it long enough I could envision someone on the autopsy table as someone's mother, father, brother, sister, or dear friend. I could wonder what this person was like in real life and whether I would have liked to have known them. But I never do. In some way I don't understand, I'm able to divorce myself from the personalization of it all and carry on in a clinical, detached manner that allows me to analyze the skeletal material to determine the biological profile, trauma, and, hopefully, identification. [/QUOTE]
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