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The Criminal Paradigm

Discussion in 'Self Defense and Handgun Carry' started by Michael Brown, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. J.P.

    J.P. Sharpshooter

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    While I thought that was a great movie scene, the reality of it is that "Hardware" only amounts to about 1% of the solution.
    "Attitude"...or mindset is very important.
    One thing is very clear though....nobody ever got better at anything by NOT training.
     
  2. First Freedom

    First Freedom Sharpshooter

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    Before I respond in detail, lemme just clarify what I mean, when I say 60% hardware, I mean 60% hardware WITH knowing how to pull it and use it quickly and efficiently under stress/adrenaline, and being aware enough of surroundings to know when to have your hand on or near it when someone's actions get sketchy, before they get too close to you, NOT just the gun itself. So that entails training, training, training (which is "software" of sorts, just not *physical conditioning* and *martial arts skills* type software).

    Oh, I'm gonna get hammered - I can feel it. :D
     
  3. J.P.

    J.P. Sharpshooter

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    I just take for granted the the "hardware" works.

    the rest is up to the user
    You can choose to train/condition or not, but if you choose positively you will certainly have the upper hand.
    I don't think anyone could argue otherwise.
     
  4. Michael Brown

    Michael Brown Sharpshooter

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    I doubt it.

    This place is friendly enough.:thumb:

    However if you're going to post opinions in the self defense or training forums, I am going to ask you to back those opinions up with something other than ole Indy.

    The topics here are too serious to be left to unfounded opinion. That is left to the General Discussions and Legal/Political sections.

    Michael Brown
     
  5. First Freedom

    First Freedom Sharpshooter

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    Well, bottom line, I have to defer to your expertise (for the most part). And besides, it's mostly pointless to "argue" when the terms "hardware" and "software" are ill-defined, and we may not be on the same page, so likely we'd never get anywhere, conclusion-wise.

    I think most everything you say is correct, and I can definitely see some value in knowing BASIC counters to boxing/MMA moves, even if it's just a basic blocking of a punch with the hands, or bobbing/ducking maneuver. But at some point, you get diminishing returns. It would take years of training to get to a level where one could top a YOUNG criminal with basic MMA training if we as victims are on average in our 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and so it amounts mostly to spittin into the wind. We either get some lead on CNS or a major organ or artery, quickly, or we lose the fight, and our wallets and possibly our life. So the MOST critcal thing, above all else, to know is how to get said lead in contact with said body parts, quickly and efficiently, or if using a weapon other than a gun, knowing how to utilize that to full effect, be it OC, a knife, or anything else.

    I think would could all agree that we could ALL use more training time. But assuming you have training time (actually we should *make* training time), at some point past a certain level of basic moves, it's gonna serve diminishing returns to learn advanced MMA stuff, when you could instead be spending your time just:
    1. Jogging/treadmill. Just basic shape/fitness to last through the first 30 seconds to 1 minute of a struggle without gasping for breath is infinitely more important than trying to learn MMA moves, and since most people are OUT of shape, their time would be vastly better spent just doing ANYTHING cardiovascular at all, not trying to learn some move which doesn't increase their VO2 in the process
    2. Basic gun-handling, gun retention, and shooting prowess - IDPA type skills. I think this is a higher priority than jujitsu, boxing, or MMA. Again, since so few people have a high level of proficiency here (myself included), our precious training time is better spent on this, a weapon that makes one somewhere on the order of 10 to 100 times more powerful than the hands and legs of the most powerful MMA fighter or boxer who ever lived - provided they don't get the "drop" on you.

    But overall your point is well-taken. We definitely need to do more to counter this new breed of criminal element - just last night on NatGeo channel, on a special on prisons, they mentioned a sobering thought: of all the millions we incarcerate for crimes, roughly one-half of them get released in a given year - and many of them come out far more educated about how to do crime as when they went in, and just as willing or more willing to commit crimes than when they went in. Until we as a society do a better job of rehabilitating rather that just isolating, we need to be ready to protect ourselves. And general fitness level is a woefully deficient area - we are one of the fattest states in the country - terribly out of shape, and it amounts to a crisis of health, but also in this area of defense vs. predators.

    I can assure you that anything I say is well-founded in 38 years of experience living on this earth, growing up poor (in rough blue collar neighborhoods) and being in plenty of fights with my brother and others, and a solid modicum of logic, which is market others do not have cornered - not Mas Ayood or Chuck Norris or Uriah Faber or anyone else on earth. So I take great offense at your implication or suggestion that I shouldn't post due to my input not being valuable (If that's what you meant). I have been a wrestler, weightlifter, and otherwise an athlete, and know full well the benefits of fitness. I also once worked as a security guard, and was licensed and went through all the force continuum trainings offered - the basic classes anyway. I also know that when you are small, NO amount of training can allow you to beat someone twice your weight and with half again as much strength, if you have roughly the same fitness level and determination. You either have a weapon, or you lose - it's a simple as that in MANY instances. I learned that the hard way with a bigger big brother. I don't think Faber would be so cocky up against a light heavyweight - ANY light heavyweight.

    OK, I'll backtrack a bit - I can see where the posting of the link to the stupid Indiana Jones thing was a bit too silly for the seriousness of the thread - I'll buy that, and if that's all you meant, then mea culpa, and forget what I posted above. But beyond that exception to what I posted, I believe I can offer my logic and experience to help others out as much as anyone. I'll try to refrain from posting links to stupid youtube videos from now on, however. :P :)
     
  6. Michael Brown

    Michael Brown Sharpshooter

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    If you are basing your opinion on being 38 years old and logical and its good enough for you, then its certainly good enough for me. I don't pay the consequences because someone else declines to prepare.

    Thus if any suggestion or implication I make offends you, I cannot be responsible for that.

    However what we should not do, as a general practice, is make assumptions based on our self-perceived level of savvy and native intelligence rather than on experience.

    Do the work and the answers will be self-evident. If you've done the work, then it really doesn't matter what I have to say as you'll know the answer.

    If you haven't then feel free to speculate all you wish in your own mind, but this sub-forum isn''t for idle speculation or ill-founded opinion. The topics are too serious.

    Michael Brown
     
  7. J.P.

    J.P. Sharpshooter

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    Amen
    :thumb:
     
  8. NikatKimber

    NikatKimber Moderator Staff Member

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    Does what he had to say in that last post mean nothing at all? If I was 45 years old, 400lbs, and just went from sheep to sheep dog, got my CCW, what would be your suggestion as the first thing to do now? What if I'm 23, have carried for 2 years, in decent shape but not by any means good shape, am comfortable with my shooting skills, but need to know what to do next. What would your advice be? Obviously taking a Xth year highly advanced h2h combat class will do me no good. I know nothing or very nearly to it about that stuff.
     
  9. Robbo

    Robbo Sharpshooter

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    Taking a reality based CQT class is not like taking a "XTH year highly advanced" anything. What it will do is teach you the dynamics of how a criminal assault will MOST LIKELY happen in the real world (vs. in the movies) and what problems you will face in regarding dealing with it (and access to your weapon). Here is a hint, it doesn't matter how many times you've practiced your perfect draw, if you try and draw at the wrong moment. I've seen some highly skilled IDPA/IPSC shooters get completely shut down from simply "going for the gun". Some of the stuff is a little counter intuitive to what you think you should do (I know because I thought the same thing before taking a class).

    If you can find like minded individuals to "do the work" as Mike is saying then all you need is some gear to work force on force and a little knowledge on what to train. Since groups of people that are dedicated enough to meet and train this stuff seem to be few and far between, then your best option is a CQT class to learn about it. There are a few places that teach the REALITY based close quarters tactics. One happens to be local and that is USSA. www.usshootingacademy.com Anything from Southnarc is very real world based and great info, but he is not local (does travel though and has done a course here before) http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp. TDSA (local as well) also will be having a close quarters class, though I haven't had any experience with it in it's current incarnation. However, from the classes I've taken there, when Marshall brings in an instructor they have been high quality. www.tdsatulsa.com

    I don't have any bone in the argument. I don't gain anything from you attending a class or not as I don't get paid by any of the organizations above... I have worked before (on a volunteer basis, not paid) as a force-on-force opponent (aka - I was the bad guy in the scenarios) so I've seen the lightbulb go off for many people as they realized how they needed to change their thinking on "how it will go down".

    Lest you think this is simply a bid to get you to pay for a class, which unfortunately if Mike says what I've said above it seems to always get turned into "Your just trying to get more people in your class" I will re-itterate this. If you can find a few like minded people who are willing to commit to showing up and training, all you need to do is buy training versions of what your carry rig is, some protection suitable for force-on-force (helmet at the least, groin protection), gain a little knowledge on HOW criminals are going to attack you (this is where talking to someone knowledgeable on the facts becomes valuable) and go to town. As Mike said, things will become evident as you try this and try that. A class simply distills all of the things you will figure out by letting you talk to (learn from) guys who HAVE been doing this for years.

    Rob
     
  10. NikatKimber

    NikatKimber Moderator Staff Member

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    So, the next thing on my list should be "get training" is what you're saying. I know I need it. If I came across as sarcastic, I didn't mean to. What I was asking was, I'm making a list of things I need to do.
    For example:

    1. Wake up - pull head out of sand
    2. Get CCW - mostly because I knew people that had them and knew it was available.
    3. Become aware of surroundings, watch back, don't go places I think are higher risk etc...
    4. Get good holster - read finding a setup that I "think" works for me.
    5. Shoot gun a lot, get comfortably accurate with it.
    6. ??? What goes here? This is where I am.
    7. ??? What goes here?

    I have done what I can on my own, I need something else to go any further. And, is that how I should advise someone who just pulled their head out of the sand? Are there ways that someone else could do better than I did? Just getting through 1,2, and 3 are huge in my opinion. I know that training (classes), getting in better shape, martial arts, and force-on-force "study sessions" are all options, but which one should I put the most priority on? In other words, how do I go from puppy sheepdog, to big snarling you-don't-wanna-mess-with-me sheepdog?
     

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