Why are Oklahoma's roads so crappy?

[dennishoddy]

I'll repeat what I've been told. I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot.

Some of you super sleuths that know how to look up Okla Laws might be able to confirm or squash this.

The key is to look at the type of asphalt that is used in Oklahoma vs the surrounding states. Ours is pure black with tiny pebbles for fill. (aggregate)

Go to any other state, and you'll notice the aggregate is more quarter sized, and the asphalt is a lighter color.


AGGREGATE
Q.
What is the proper nominal aggregate size to use?
A.
Lift thickness governs aggregate size. Minimum lift thickness should be at least 3 times the nominal max. aggregate size to ensure aggregate can align themselves during compaction to achieve required density and also to ensure mix is impermeable.

The maximum lift thickness is dependent also upon the type of compaction equipment that is being used. When static steel-wheeled rollers are used, the maximum lift thickness that can be properly compacted is three (3) inches. When pneumatic or vibratory rollers are used, the maximum thickness of lift that can be compacted is almost unlimited. Generally, lift thicknesses are limited to 6 or 8 inches. Proper placement becomes a problem in lifts thicker than 8 or 8 inches.

For open-graded mixes, compaction is not an issue since it is intended that these types of mixes remain very open. Therefore, the maximum size aggregate can be as much as 80 percent of the lift thickness.

The actual asphalt (a Petroleum by product) comes in different grades.

Here comes what I was told by a person employed by the second largest asphalt/road building company in Ok:

By law, Oklahoma roads are to be constructed of type K asphalt. (The lowest grade available and not used by surrounding states.)

Its inferior, but cheap and easy to lay.

Does ODOT have standards and inspectors to monitor the road base being applied?

Why can't Ok use the same grade asphalt that surrounding states use?

Is it because its against the law for these company's to put down the proper grade of asphalt and aggregate? If so who lobbied for this law?

Road builders?

 

[Swab]

Weather plays a huge part of it, not just in roads but in underground as well. 99% of the time it's not the concrete/asphalt that is out of whack, but the sub grade underneath. I read earlier in the thread about municipalities holding the contractor responsible for defects and such in the construction process, and I'll say they most definitely do. If you dont hit a 2% margin in testing post construction, the city/state will deduct a certain percentage out of what the contractor gets paid per unit. But I agree, our roads suck.

Sent from the land of teepee's and buffaloes

 

[Grendel]

If you dont hit a 2% margin in testing post construction, the city/state will deduct a certain percentage out of what the contractor gets paid per unit. But I agree, our roads suck.

So, they may get paid less, but are they required to actually FIX the bad road or bridge construction? My experience is that they never actually get fixed after the shotty construction in the first place.

 

[Volmarr]

They're doing a lot of construction on Hwy 75 northbound from Tulsa to Bartlesville right now and it's got me curious.

They're adding in a probably 4-foot shoulder to the inside lines of a divided 4-lane highway. Not sure what that accomplishes, because it's not level with the road, it obviously slopes down from the main roadbed, which already had a 2-foot shoulder on the inside and a 6-foot+ shoulder on the outside. But here's the catch, to me... and maybe someone can explain this to me. They're adding this shoulder in alternating sections from each side. Yeah... they'll add a couple hundred feet on the interior of the northbound side, then terminated it, sod everything (like they're done) and then switch to the southbound side for the next section. They've don't this for several miles now. It's not a shoulder that will later be added into a 3rd lane for several reasons.

1. There's no need for a 6-lane divided highway between Tulsa and Bartlesville.
2. The shoulder slopes way too much to be made into a driveable lane.
3. It alternates between northbound and southbound every few hundred yards. And they're sodding the sections in-between. They're done.

I don't see the purpose of this couple extra feet in alternating, sloping sections.

|

I noticed they started installing a cable barrier on those sections of the highway. It's looks like the shoulder was too small so they extended it and now are installing the barrier. It's such a waste of money when they should be fixing the roads.

 

[Neanderthal]

DAMN YOU CLAY!! YOU'VE SCREWED UP OUR ROADS! There, I said it. I've also heard that he's Obama's half brother, but hung like a white-guy.

 

[Swab]

So, they may get paid less, but are they required to actually FIX the bad road or bridge construction? My experience is that they never actually get fixed after the shotty construction in the first place.

It depends on the contract. If an asphalt contractor hits a 93% compaction on their mix instead of 94% min - 96% max, then a it's a deduction. The lower the percentage the more the deduction, and when it gets to a certain point the contractor is required to remove and replace. Sometimes failure is on the material supplier, others it is on the methods of the contractor. We usually bring in a testing company of our own to help avoid situations like that before it starts and to back us up if the results are conflicting. Sorry about the novels, but road construction is a little bit more complicated than people think.

Sent from the land of teepee's and buffaloes

 

[Grendel]

It depends on the contract. If an asphalt contractor hits a 93% compaction on their mix instead of 94% min - 96% max, then a it's a deduction. The lower the percentage the more the deduction, and when it gets to a certain point the contractor is required to remove and replace. Sometimes failure is on the material supplier, others it is on the methods of the contractor. We usually bring in a testing company of our own to help avoid situations like that before it starts and to back us up if the results are conflicting. Sorry about the novels, but road construction is a little bit more complicated than people think.

Sent from the land of teepee's and buffaloes

So it seems like you work in the road construction business. If you don't mind, tell us about the actual construction contracts and what is specified by Oklahoma versus other states?

I have to assume that the actual methods and materials that we specify are inferior versus other states due to the amount of money that we have available? Or the money is being siphoned off somewhere along the way (not accusing your company of this, mind you...)?

It all just doesn't make sense to me, Arkansas isn't that much better off than we are financially, and surely there is corruption and graft at about the same level in pretty much every other state....

 

[Raoul Duke]

Underfunding, negligence, and corruption is my guess.

 

[Dave70968]

I'll repeat what I've been told. I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot.

Some of you super sleuths that know how to look up Okla Laws might be able to confirm or squash this.

The key is to look at the type of asphalt that is used in Oklahoma vs the surrounding states. Ours is pure black with tiny pebbles for fill. (aggregate)

Go to any other state, and you'll notice the aggregate is more quarter sized, and the asphalt is a lighter color.


AGGREGATE
Q.
What is the proper nominal aggregate size to use?
A.
Lift thickness governs aggregate size. Minimum lift thickness should be at least 3 times the nominal max. aggregate size to ensure aggregate can align themselves during compaction to achieve required density and also to ensure mix is impermeable.

The maximum lift thickness is dependent also upon the type of compaction equipment that is being used. When static steel-wheeled rollers are used, the maximum lift thickness that can be properly compacted is three (3) inches. When pneumatic or vibratory rollers are used, the maximum thickness of lift that can be compacted is almost unlimited. Generally, lift thicknesses are limited to 6 or 8 inches. Proper placement becomes a problem in lifts thicker than 8 or 8 inches.

For open-graded mixes, compaction is not an issue since it is intended that these types of mixes remain very open. Therefore, the maximum size aggregate can be as much as 80 percent of the lift thickness.

The actual asphalt (a Petroleum by product) comes in different grades.

Here comes what I was told by a person employed by the second largest asphalt/road building company in Ok:

By law, Oklahoma roads are to be constructed of type K asphalt. (The lowest grade available and not used by surrounding states.)

Its inferior, but cheap and easy to lay.

Does ODOT have standards and inspectors to monitor the road base being applied?

Why can't Ok use the same grade asphalt that surrounding states use?

Is it because its against the law for these company's to put down the proper grade of asphalt and aggregate? If so who lobbied for this law?

Road builders?

I just quickly scanned through Title 69 (Roads, Bridges, and Ferries) and found no such law. That said, it could be a rule promulgated by an administrative agency, in this case, probably the State Highways Commission.

I noticed they started installing a cable barrier on those sections of the highway. It's looks like the shoulder was too small so they extended it and now are installing the barrier. It's such a waste of money when they should be fixing the roads.

Not necessarily; it might be a requirement to get Federal highway dollars. If the roads as is are out of compliance, and we'd lose $50 million in Federal money, spending $10 million (note: numbers and non-compliance completely imaginary; this is just a possibility) starts to look pretty smart.

 

[dugsok]

Sure make one wonder how roads on BC.Alberta ,N and S Dakota and such hold up, and are quite a bit better than Okla.